Blog for choice day

First let me say I myself have never had an abortion nor do I know anyone who has but that does not say that, me or one of my loved ones will never need an abortion. For this fact I feel it is an individual choice not a Federal or even a State choice but personal choice.

The Government in no way has any rights to tell me what I can and can not do with my body nor tell me if I can financially afford a child.

I have no right to sit in judgment of anyone who wishes to have an abortion.

Freedom of Choice is just that, a Freedom that each of us has..

And I lean very much to the left also.

How about blogging for more parental involvement and better sex education programs! There are to many birth control alternatives today for abortion to be an option! I do not condemn anyone for their choice but I don't have to condone it either!

Seems I remember reading that you do not have children. If you want a child, you might ought to re-think your opinion on abortion. God is our creator and therefore decides when a child is conceived. Bragging about your "choice" could leave you barren. Abortion is not a choice, it is MURDER.

I think the "do whatever feels good" comment was to be interpreted as not thinking past the moment or the consequences of a persons desires/actions!

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but Michael, I agree with you - it should not be the government's place to tell you it should be your conscience.

I just think that some people have it in their conscience to have one, while others (myself included) do not. I just think that whenever a woman does make the choice to have an abortion, that it is probably a hard one to make (at least I would hope it's a hard choice to make - if that makes sense), it does not seem like it is an easy choice.

In the end, I think we're (mostly) in agreement that the goverment should not regulate it. I agree with DianeTN, in that no one is really pro-abortion. We just don't want others making the decisions of what we do with our bodies for us.

I Fully agree devan that is a lot of abortions. I don't feel abortion should be used as a form of birth control but accidents do happen, in fact they happen everyday.

So what is the answer to a child of 14 or 15 making a life changing mistake? Or the married couple who are struggling paycheck to paycheck to live and the pill just didn't work?

Or the lady who was raped going home late at night? Or the woman who is not physically or emotionally able to care for herself much less a child?

Please do not say adoption...there are thousands upon thousands of children just waiting and wishing for a home now.

Foster care is not any better, come take a walk with me one day and see..most and I say most, not all, are no more than the family pet, just something they are required to feed. These kids are unloved, unwanted, tossed away like yesterdays trash, raped, abused, just living for the day they turn 18. They are a check from the government. And many become a product of their environment, it is a never ending cycle because it is the only life they ever knew.

I don't know Steve but the red tape to adopt inside the US is endless. Many couples wait years to receive a child and become frustrated and go to foreign countries because the process is much quicker and actually cheaper.

It seems they pick apart everything about the couple wishing to adopt but yet foster care has very few requirements. I'll never understand our government or our policies.

I understand the arguments you are making Diana but since Roe Vs Wade have 50 million abortions really changed anything for the better. It seems to me the moral condition of the nation has done nothing but worsen and I can't help but believe that the devaluation of life has something to do with that. When fetuses can be disposed of like so much trash why should we expect children to be treated any differently.

devan I don't think it has changed anything for the better except we have 50 million less children in foster care.

I am not saying I could ever have an abortion by any means, I don't know that, I have never been faced with the situation many of these women have..

Devan, don't you think you should treat a living breathing human being better than an unborn fetus? These children live with emotional scars their entire lives and none of us remember being a fetus.

Personally I don't feel we are doing them any favors by tucking them away in foster care.

And in turn Steve, Many who fight for the Death penalty are against abortion.

Although I can tell you one thing, I do not fight against the death penalty. Personally I think it should be used more often.

And yes it is a crazy world we live in and getting crazier everyday.

I am sorry devan maybe I did miss your point because I certainly didn't ignore it.. I thought you ask if abortions had made anything better.

I am not going to argue with you about an unborn fetus being a living human being because we could go back and forth all night and that's not something I care to do.

I too believe the fetus is a living Human being once it comes to the point during pregnancy that the child can be born and live on it's own before that no I am afraid I don't believe it is anything other than cells with a potential to become a life. I am a firm believer birth control stops that potential life just as abortion does..

I am not going to argue with you about an unborn fetus being a living human being because we could go back and forth all night and that's not something I care to do.

-- Posted by Dianatn on Tue, Jan 22, 2008, at 10:22 PM

But that's the big issue, isn't it? You stated that you have children, so you are well aware that a baby doesn't go from being a couple of cells to being able to live outside the womb. What about all the stages in between? You know, when facial features and limbs are already formed, and its moving around inside you. If thats not a living thing, then what is it?

I am sorry devan maybe I did miss your point because I certainly didn't ignore it.. I thought you ask if abortions had made anything better.

-- Posted by Dianatn on Tue, Jan 22, 2008, at 10:22 PM

I did ask if abortions had made anything better. My point was that maybe they had made things worse through the devaluation of human life.

Great post quantumcat! Thought provoking beyond belief.

Actually folks, this whole conversation is a credit to the process. Conversation/debate without it turning into a fist fight.

There are circumstances that I would agree with abortion, certainly with medical situations like the one quantumcat gave. Just as tough as saving the mother or child.

It just seems that abortion is too available. I would hope each and every mother & FATHER has serious thoughts before going through with it. Maybe it is just my perception that they don't.

The same should be said for those who perform the procedure, but I am afraid it is just another medical process and nothing more. Those perceptions cause great sadness and my objection to abortion as it stands today.

If I misscarry at 3 months, what will happen to the fetus? Will it be buried? or given a death certifcate? The answer is No.

-it is your baby, if you ask the dr will gladly let you bury it. Will there be a death certificate? No.

It is a completely different story after the baby would be able to survive on it's own. It is then called still born not a miscarriage, after 20 weeks.

If I died and was 6-7 months pregnant it would be more than likely the baby would live.

-there is no way a baby of 20 weeks would survive the reason it is called still born at this point is b/c you would actually be forced to give birth to the baby. The likelyhood of a baby at 24-28 weeks surviving iether is so far fetched it's not funny. I realize it has happened but it is so far removed from likely. Most of the time if the baby is born around 32 weeks is when the likelyhood goes up. I, also, am a mother of soon to be three and have experienced preterm labor with both of the children I already have. My Doctor has explained this many many many times.

During the past several decades, expert postnatal care has improved with advances in medical science, and therefore the point of viability has moved earlier. As of 2006, the youngest child to survive a premature birth was a girl born at the Baptist Hospital of Miami at 21 weeks and 6 days.

This does not go on to say if the child lived very long after birth but the child was born alive. There is the difference.

Dianatn:

I was not directing my comment to you. It was for the benefit of Chantal, the left sided originator of this blog. Thank God for our children and pray they learn from our mistakes.

Dianatn ,yes there is a choice. A choice to kill or a choice to do what is right.We all face issues everyday that sometimes we think we would be better off dead, but we can't think like that.An unborn child doesn't have a choice.God leaves it up to us how we are going to take care of the child given.Maybe if people still took their children to Sunday School,where they could learn how to act and how to treat others,and trust in God, their lives wouldn't be so messed up and they would know where to turn.To God!These parents need to Pray real long and hard!There's a choice.

This blog is for opinions and I just gave mine.Am I making anyones decision?No I wish I could.God is in this!He's our maker and creator, and a lot of people have forgotten that.That's what wrong with the world.People cry freedom of speech! rights for abortion!God is very involved and should be brought into this!God is good!

Evil Monkey,

Moot???? God is neither obsolete or forced on anyone. He created the Heaven and the Earth...you....and me. He created the baby being aborted as well as the aborter. Religion has nothing to do with it. You better bring God into it. If you are not for God then you are against God. Heaven or Hell, plain and simple. Choose God for eternal life. The only alternative is burning in a lake of fire. Ever been burned?

I believe there are some instances in which abortion should be considered. I'm not saying that it should be considered until the point the baby is capable of living outside the womb. As, I know that is much later than already acceptable norms. For myself, I have never once said "I am carrying a viable fetus" I say "We're having another baby in June". I think if you met someone who called their baby a fetus you may question their ability and mental strength to raise that fetus. No one has an abortion b/c they don't know what they'll do with a fetus, they don't know what they'll do with a baby. Is it wrong in my book? Yes, although sometimes it is a judgement call that is in everyone's best interest, including the baby.

LauraSFT, Have you ever carried a baby?My first ultrasound was way before the baby could have survived by itself.I saw my baby moving hands and feet,heartbeat every motion of life.That was before I felt it kicking.You're saying it's ok to abort the baby because it's not old enough to survive outside the womb.Then you say it's wrong in your book.Which is it? and what book are you coming from?When is it ok to kill a baby?When you made a terrible mistake,or b.c.doesn't work? WWJD?

Please do not attack Laura for her beliefs. Just because you do not see things in the same perspective is not reason to think anyone should think the same as you.

Judging someone because of their beliefs is as big of a sin as what you think abortion is.. no one sin is any worse than another. There are no degrees in hell.

God said "Judge not lest thou shall be judged also"

And none of us including you, Would know what Jesus would do

The God I was taught about is a forgiving God he knows we are human and make mistakes. He is not the vengeful God that you speak of

Dianatn, I gave her an example of what I have experienced and asked her a question.Is that so wrong? Is it not ok to give your opinion anymore without people thinking you're attacking someone?God is a God of love,and I also think we should fear him.Is that what your bible says?

Jesus said fear not,to not worry about your troubles and what lies ahead.To put all your trust in him.WE do need to be aware that our God can do all and we should fear him if we stray.He will bring us back to where we need to be.

"It's not medically possible for woman to become barren because she is pro-choice, but God can allow that to happen to you.Read the bible and see how many people were punished for actions they committed by the "choices" they made.Not God's choice."

what!!!...I couldn't have said it any better myself. As for Dianatn's comment: There is a difference in "fearing" God and being "in fear" of God. He does not want us to live in fear of Him however, to "fear" Him is to be in reverential awe of Him, to trust, and seek his mercy, grace and love for our lives.

what!!!,

Apparently you haven't read my posts as thoroughly as you would have us to believe. I said I have two children now and I am expecting the third in June. In MY book abortion as birth control as t-totally wrong. That is MY book, not yours or anyone else's. As for what would Jesus do, well #1 I believe he is a man and wouldn't get pregnant in the first place, #2 I don't believe Jesus does anything by "accident" so that should answer your question. Jesus will do what most women do and not get pregnant until they are ready.

God says.. we, as parents, will be held accountable for the way we raise our children. Just as we, as children, will be held accountable for the way we take care of our parents when they are old. No where does the Bible say, "those who abort, it's ok....that's your choice". There is a day of accountability for every person....and that is NOT your choice! God said it, you better believe it. There will be no SECOND CHANCE( or choice) when the trumpet sounds!

I am not going to argue religion with you although I could...I just refuse to do so.

Religion is just one more choice we have here in America.

It is your right and your Freedom of choice to believe whatever you wish and that's ok with me, just do not push your religion down my throat.

I have my own beliefs, my own religion and I feel just as strongly about mine as you do yours.

Does this make you wrong and me right? No I don't think so but neither does it make you right and me wrong.

WORLDWIDE

Number of abortions per year: Approximately 46 Million

Number of abortions per day: Approximately 126,000

Doesn't anyone comprehend what we are doing in the name of choice?

Wikipedia says the same thing about the total of abortions but this is a WORLD WIDE figure

78% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries and 22% occur in developed countries.

Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

To answer your question, WWJD, Looks like he would KILL.

Boyhood deeds of our Lord Jesus Christ

1 I, Thomas the Israelite, am reporting to you, all my non-Jewish brothers and sisters, to make known the extraordinary childhood deeds of our Lord Jesus Christ - what he did after his birth in my region. This is how it all started:

2 When this boy, Jesus, was five years old, he was playing at the ford of a rushing stream. (2) He was collecting the flowing water into ponds and made the water instantly pure. He did this with a single command. (3) He then made soft clay and shaped it into twelve sparrows. He did this on the sabbath day, and many other boys were playing with him.

(4)But when a Jew saw what Jesus was doing while playing on the sabbath day, he immediately went off and told Joseph, Jesus' father: "See here, your boy is at the ford and has taken mud and fashioned twelve birds with it, and so has violated the sabbath."

(5)So Joseph went there, and as soon as he spotted him he shouted, "Why are you doing what's not permitted on the sabbath?"

(6)But Jesus simply clapped his hands and shouted to the sparrows: "Be off, fly away, and remembe' me, you who are now alive!" And the sparrows took off and flew away noisily.

(7)The Jews watched with amazement, then left the scene to report to their leaders what they had seen Jesus doing.

3 The son of Annas the scholar, standing there with Jesus, took a willow branch and drained the water Jesus had collected. (2)Jesus, however, saw what had happened and became angry, saying to him, "Damn you, you irreverent fool! What harm did the ponds of water do to you? From this moment you, too, will dry up like a tree, and you'll never produce leaves or root or bear fruit."

(3) In an instant the boy had completely withered away. Then Jesus departed and left for the house of Joseph. (4)The parents of the boy who had withered away picked him up and were carrying him out, sad because he was so young. And they came to Joseph and accused him: "It's your fault - your boy did this."

4 Later he was going through the village again when a boy ran and bumped him on the shoulder. Jesus got angry and said to him, "You won't continue your journey." (2)And all of a sudden, he fell down and died.

(3)Some people saw what had happened and said, "Where has this boy come from? Everything he says happens instantly!"

(4)The parents of the dead boy came to Joseph and blamed him saying, "Because you have such a boy, you can't live with us in the village, or else teach him to bless and not curse. He's killing our children!"

5 So Joseph summoned his child and admonished him in private, saying, "Why are you doing all this? These people are suffering and so they hate and harass us." (2)Jesus said, "I know that these are not your words, still, I'll keep quiet for your sake. But those people must take their punishment." There and then his accusers became blind.

(3)Those who saw this became very fearful and at a loss. All they could say was, "Every word he says, whether good or bad, has became a deed - a miracle even!" (4)When Joseph saw that Jesus had done such a thing, he got angry and grabbed his ear and pulled very hard. (5)The bot became infuriated with him and replied, "It's one thing for you to seek and not find; it's quite another for you to act this unwisely. (6)Don't you know that I don't really belong to you? Don't make me upset."

6 A teacher by the name of Zacchaeus was listening to everything Jesus was saying to Joseph, and was astonished, saying to himself, "He is just a child, and saying this!" (2)And so he summoned Joseph and said to him, "You have a bright child, and he has a good mind. Hand him over to me so he can learn his letters. I'll teach him everything he needs to know so as not to be unruly."

(3)Joseph replied, "No one is able to rule this child except God alone. Don't consider him to be a small cross, brother."

(4)When Jesus heard Joseph saying this he laughed and said to Zacchaeus, "Believe me, teacher, what my father told you is true. (5)I am the Lord of these people and I'm present with you and have been born among you and am with you. (6)I know where you've come from and how many years you'll live. I swear to you, teacher, I existed when you were born. If you wish to be a perfect teacher, listen to me and I'll teach you a wisdom that no one else knows except for me and the one who sent me to you. (7)It's you who happens to be my student, and I know how old you are and how long you have to live. (8)When you see the cross that my father mentioned, then you'll believe that everything I've told you is true."

(9)The Jews who were standing by and heard Jesus marveled and said, "How strange and paradoxical! This child is barely five years old and yet he says such things. In fact, we've never heard anyone say the kind of thing this child does."

(10)Jesus said to them in reply, "Are you really so amazed? Rather, consider what I've said to you. The truth is that I also know when you were born, and your parents, and I announce this paradox to you: when the world was created, I existed along with the one who sent me to you."

(11)The Jews, once they heard that the child was speaking like this, became angry but were unable to say anything in reply. (12)But the child skipped forward and said to them, "I've made fun of you because I know that your tiny minds marvel at trifles."

(13)When, therefore, they thought that they were being comforted by the child's exhortation, the teacher said to Joseph, "Bring him to the classroom and I'll teach him the alphabet."

(14)Joseph took him by the hand and led him to the classroom. (15)The teacher wrote the alphabet for him and began the instruction by repeating the letter alpha many times. But the child was quiet and did not answer him for a long time. (16)No wonder, then, that the teacher got angry and struck him on the head. The child took the blow calmly and replied to him, "I'm teaching you rather than you're teaching me, and your condemnation is great. To you these letters are like a bronze pitcher or a clashing cymbal, which can't produce glory or wisdom because it's all just noise. (17)Nor does anyone understand the extent of my wisdom." (18)When he got over being angry he recited the letters from alpha to omega very quickly.

(19)Then he looked at the teacher and told him, "Since you don't know the real nature of the letter alpha, how are you going to teach the letter beta? (20)You impostor, if you know, teach me first the letter alpha and then I'll trust you with the letter beta." (21)He began to quiz the teacher about the first letter, but he was unable to say anything.

(22)Then while many were listening, he said to Zacchaeus, "Listen, teacher, and observe the arrangement of the first letter: (23)How it has two straight lines or strokes proceeding to a point in the middle, gathered together, elevated, dancing, three-cornered, two-cornered, not antagonistic, of the same family, providing the alpha has lines of equal measure."

7 After Zacchaeus the teacher had heard the child expressing such intricate allegories regarding the first letter, he despaired of defending his teaching. (2)He spoke to those who were present: "Poor me, I'm utterly bewildered, wretch that I am. I've heaped shame on myself because I took on this child. (3)So take him away, I beg you, brother Joseph. I can't endure the severity of his look or his lucid speech. (4)This child is no ordinary mortal; he can even tame fire! Perhaps he was born before the creation of the world. (5)What sort of womb bore him, what sort of mother nourished him? -I don't know. (6)Poor me, friend, I've lost my mind. (7)I've decided myself, I who am wholly wretched. I strove to get a student, and I've been found to have a teacher. (8)Friends, I think of the shame, because, although I'm an old man, I've been defeated by a mere child. (9)And so I can only despair and die on account of this child; right now I can't look him in the face. (10)When everybody says that I've been defeated by a small child, what can I say? And what can I report about the lines of the first letter which he told me about? I just don't know, friends. For I don't know its beginning or its end. (11)Therefore, I ask you, brother Joseph, take him back to your house. What great thing he is - god or angel or whatever else I might call him - I don't know."

8 While the Jews were advising Zacchaeus, the child laughed loudly and said, "Now let the infertile bear fruit and the blind see and the deaf in the understanding of their heart hear: (2)I've come from above so that I might save those who are below and summon them to higher things, just as the one who sent me to you commanded me."

(3)When the child stopped speaking, all those who had fallen under the curse were instantly saved. (4)And from then on no one dared to anger him for fear of being cursed and maimed for life.

9 A few days later Jesus was playing on the roof of a house when one of the children playing with him fell off the roof and died. When the other children saw what had happened, they fled, leaving Jesus standing all by himself.

(2)The parents of the dead child came and accused Jesus: "You troublemaker you, you're the one who threw him down."

(3)Jesus responded, "I didn't throw him down - he threw himself down. He just wasn't being careful and leaped down from the roof and died."

(4)Then Jesus himself leaped down from the roof and stood by the body of the child and shouted in a loud voice: "Zeno!" - that was his name - "Get up and tell me: Did I push you?"

(5)He got up immediately and said, "No, Lord, you didn't push me, you raised me up."

(6)Those who saw this were astonished, and the child's parents praised God for the miracle that had happened and worshipped Jesus.

10 A few days later a young man was splitting wood in the neighborhood when his axe slipped and cut off the bottom of his foot. He was dying from the loss of blood.

(2)The crown rushed there in an uproar, and the boy Jesus ran up, too. He forced his way through the crowd and grabbed hold of the young man's wounded foot. It was instantly healed.

(3)He said to the youth, "Get up now, split your wood, and remember me."

(4)The crowd saw what had happened and worshipped the child, saying, "Truly the spirit of God dwells in this child."

11 When he was six years old, his mother sent him to draw water and bring it back to the house. (2)But he lost his grip on the picture in the jostling of the crowd, and it fell and broke. (3)So Jesus spread out the cloak he was wearing and filled it with water and carried it back to his mother.

(4)His mother, once she saw the miracle that had occurred, kissed him; but she kept to herself the mysteries that she had seen him do.

12 Again, during the sowing season, the child went out with his father to sow their field with grain. While his father was sowing, the child Jesus sowed one measure of grain. (2)When he had harvested and threshed it, it yielded one hundred measures. (3)Then he summoned all the poor in the village to the threshing floor and gave them grain. Joseph carried back what was left of the grain. (4)Jesus was eight years old when he did this miracle.

13 Now Jesus' father was a carpenter, making ploughs and yokes at that time. He received an order from a rich man to make a bed for him. (2)When one board of what is called the crossbeam turned out to be shorter than the other, and Joseph didn't know what to do, the child Jesus said to his father, "Put the two boards down and line them up at one end."

(3)Joseph did as the child told him. Jesus stood at the other end and grabbed hold of the shorter board, and, by stretching it, made it the same length as the other.

(4)His father Joseph looked on and marveled, and he hugged and kissed the child, saying, "How fortunate I am that God has given this child to me."

14 When Joseph saw the child's aptitude, and his great intelligence for his age, he again resolved that Jesus should not remain illiterate. So he took him and handed him over to another teacher. (2)The teacher said to Joseph, "First I'll teach him Greek, then Hebrew." This teacher, of course, knew of the child's previous experience (with a teacher) and was afraid of him. Still, he wrote out the alphabet and instructed him for quite a while, though Jesus was unresponsive.

(3)Then Jesus spoke: "If you're really a teacher, and if you know the letters well, tell me the meaning of the letter alpha, and I'll tell you the meaning of beta."

(4)The teacher became exasperated and hit him on the head. Jesus got angry and cursed him, and the teacher immediately lost consciousness and fell facedown on the ground.

(5)The Child returned to Joseph's house. But Joseph was upset and gave instruction to his mother: "Don't let him go outside, because those who annoy him end up dead."

15 After some time another teacher, a close friend of Joseph, said to him, "Send the child to my schoolroom. Perhaps with some flattery I can teach him his letters."

(2)Joseph replied, "If you can muster the courage, brother, take him with you." And so he took him along with much fear and trepidation, but the child was happy to go.

(3)Jesus strode boldly into the schoolroom and found a book lying on the desk. He took the book but did not read the letters in it. Rather, he opened his mouth and spoke by (the power of) the holy spirit and taught the law to those standing there.

(4)A large crowd gathered and stood listening to him, and they marveled at the maturity of his teaching and his readiness of speech - a mere child able to say such things.

(5)When Joseph heard about this he feared the worst and ran to the schoolroom, imagining that this teacher was having trouble with Jesus.

(6)But the teacher said to Joseph, "Brother, please know that I accepted this child as a student, but already he's full of grace and wisdom. So I'm asking you, brother, to take him back home."

(7)When the child heard this, he immediately smiled at him and said, "Because you have spoken and testified rightly, that other teacher who was struck down will be healed." And right away he was. Joseph took his child and went home.

16 Joseph sent James to tie up some wood and carry it back to the house, and the child Jesus followed. While James was gathering the firewood, a viper bit his hand. (2)And as he lay sprawled out on the ground, dying, Jesus came and blew on the bite. Immediately the pain stopped, the animal burst apart, and James got better on the spot.

17 After this incident an infant in Joseph's neighborhood became sick and died, and his mother grieved terribly. Jesus heard the loud wailing and the uproar that was going on and quickly ran there.

(2)When he found the child dead, he touched its chest and said, "I say to you, infant, don't die but live, and be with your mother."

(3)And immediately the infant looked up and laughed. Jesus then said to the woman, "Take it, give it your breast, and remember me."

(4)The crowd of onlookers marveled at this: "Truly this child was a god or a heavenly messenger of God - whatever he says instantly happens." But Jesus left and went on playing with the other children.

18 A year later, while a building was under construction, a man fell from the top of it and died. There was quite a commotion, so Jesus got up and went there. (2)When he saw the man lying dead, he took his hand and said, "I say to you, sir, get up and go back to work." And he immediately got up and worshipped him.

(3)The crowd saw this and marveled: "This child's from heaven - he must be, because he has saved many souls from death, and he can go on saving all his life."

19 When he was twelve years old his parents went to Jerusalem, as usual, for the Passover festival, along with the their fellow travelers. (2)After Passover they began the journey home. But while on their way, the child Jesus went back up to Jerusalem. His parents, of course, assumed that he was in the traveling party. (3)After they had traveled one day, they began to look for him among their relatives. When they did not find him, they were worried and returned again to the city to search for him.

(4)After three days they found him in the temple area, sitting among the teachers, listening to the law and asking them questions. (5)All eyes were on him, and everyone was astounded that he, a mere child, could interrogate the elders and teachers of the people and explain the main points of the law and the parables of the prophets.

(6)His mother Mary came up and said to him, "Child, why have you done this to us? Don't you see, we've been worried sick looking for you."

(7)"Why were you looking for me?" Jesus said to them. "Don't you know that I have to be in my father's house?"

(8)Then the scholars and Pharisees said, "Are you the mother of this child?"

(9)She said, "I am."

(10)And they said to her, "You more than any woman are to be congratulated, for God has blessed the fruit of your womb! For we've never seen nor heard such glory and such virtue and wisdom."

(11)Jesus got up and went to his mother, and was obedient to his parents. His mother took careful note of all that had happened. (12)And Jesus continued to excel in learning and gain respect.

(13)To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Let me also state that I am Pro-Choice. That is for people choosing not to conceive babies that they don't want. From the same source quoted above: Why women have abortions.

1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

I know there are a couple on here who absolutely believe that abortion in any case is wrong, and they believe that way for religious reasons and that is ok. Believe however you want because of whatever you want. Keep in mind that just as you have the liberties in this country to do that, so do other people. They are not always going to do right by you, and they don't have to. Just as you don't have to do right by them. I know it is a stretch but they don't always have to do right by God/Jesus/the Bible either, as they may believe its bull. You don't want them making you do one thing b/c it is NOT "what Jesus would've done" so don't ask them to do what you think they should b/c it IS "what Jesus would've done".

devan,

I'm a bit puzzled by you citing the statistic that "93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient)" (as opposed to the lower rates for rape/incest and health problems). Are you making a value judgement on the women who choose to have abortions for "social reasons"? Is it OK not to want to have a baby because you were raped but not OK to not want to have a baby becuse you can't afford one, or the condom broke, or you just don't want to be a mother?

You imply from your previous comments that you want people to make the choice not to have children before they have sex. Indeed, many women are doing that by using birth control. But condoms break, and pills fail, and IUDs can be expelled by the body. Should there be no recourse for women who make the concious decision not to breed but get pregnant anyway?

Should there be no recourse for women who make the concious decision not to breed but get pregnant anyway?

-- Posted by cubicalgirl on Thu, Jan 24, 2008, at 9:30 AM

The recourse should be to have the baby. I don't think that even in the case of rape that the crime of rape should be compounded by the crime of murder. That which is a "mistake" to some is a precious life to others. I think that is the issue that we are choosing sides over.

I wasn't aware Christians could pick and choose which parts of the Bible they could believe in?

I wasn't aware Christians could pick and choose which parts of the Bible they could believe in?

-- Posted by Dianatn on Thu, Jan 24, 2008, at 10:28 AM

Go to any "Christian" book store and let me know how many Bibles contain that passage.

From Wikipedia: The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is a non-canonical text that was part of a popular genre, aretalogy, of the 2nd and 3rd centuries-- a miracle literature of Infancy gospels that was both entertaining and inspirational, written to satisfy a hunger for more miraculous and anecdotal stories of the childhood of Jesus than the Gospel of Luke provided. Later references by Hippolytus and Origen to a Gospel of Thomas are more likely to be referring to this Infancy Gospel than to the wholly different Gospel of Thomas with which it is sometimes confused. Some of the episodes from the Infancy Gospel were topics of mediaeval art.

This is not accepted by Bible scholars as a legitimate part of the Bible. It certainly contains some things that don't seem consistent with what we read in the generally accepted Bible books.

devan wrote:

"However, I can't help but believe that when they are so convenient and so without consequence that the numbers spiral upward."

As I pointed out in my comment about the Guttmacher Institute study, the US abortion rate went down between 2000 and 2005, and was at the lowest rate since 1974, so "spiraling upward" I don't think is quite the term to use.

Abortion is not "convenient." Eighty-seven percent of US counties lack abortion providers (with the higest concentration of counties without an abortion provider being in the South and Midwest). This means women must travel for an abortion (and make all the financial and travel arrangements that entails, as well as missing work or school and having whomever goes to the clinic with the woman make those same arrangements), creating undue hardship. Research bears out that abortion rates are lowest in places where abortion is readily accessible and legal (http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2007/10/11/index.html). The linked article talks about worldwide numbers, but in the recent Guttmacher Institute study, this mirrors research that indicates rates in NY, GA, and CA, (states which have the most access to abortion providers) are lower.

I really take issue with your belief that abortion is "without consequence." Let me assure you, every woman who has an abortion knows exactly what she's doing and doesn't take having an abortion lightly. As with all major life decisions, it's something that they must make their peace with, however they choose to do that.

Just because a woman isn't weeping and rending her garments daily over the fact tht she had an abortion doesn't mean that it's a walk in the park. I hope that you can imagine the inner turmoil that any woman goes though when confronted with an unwated pregnancy and the deliberation that happens when figuring out what to do about it. I have volunteered at Planned parenthood and I've witnessed the (often false) things said to women who are entering the clinic. I think being shouted at by strangers for choosing to take care of your health (women and men who enter the clinic for reasons other than abortions get shouted at) is a "consequence."

Women do not have to feel sorry or show some socially-acceptable form of attrition because they have dared to act in their own best interests. And believing that women who do not show outward signs of remorse are taking abortion lightly does a discredit to the thinking human beings that women are.

Think about if your parents decided they wasn't ready to have you , and you were aborted.Aren't you glad they decided to act responsibly?

Christiangirl,

Let's play with this idea for a minute. Say that in MY bible the one that myself along with many other people agree with and try to uphold it said very clearly that you must abort your first daughter. To you, that is absurd, to me and many other people it makes perfect sense, "it's there in black and white". It clearly states once you've had an ultrasound and know that you are having a girl you must abort that baby. Just because that's what my book says, are you gonna do it? Probably not, or you would fight it with every fiber of your being b/c you KNOW it is not right. You know that your bible says it's not ok. Who's right? Who gets to decide wether or not you abort your first daughter?

What or Christian girl or whatever your name will be tomorrow.

I have played nice as long as possible.

No one has ever tried to tell you to have an abortion, Have they?

Then what gives you the right to tell anyone else what they should do or should not do?

Abortion is Legal, if when or ever it becomes illegal, I guess then you have something to gripe about. Until that time comes, it is absolutely none of your business. It's not YOUR body or YOUR child to have to worry about.

This is one of the major problems I have with today's world. People who think they can tell others what is best for them when it has NO effect on their life what so ever. It is easy for you to sit back and say don't have an abortion because God said it was wrong,when you aren't the one that is having to lift a finger to support or raise the child.

How would some 15 year old in Nashville (or anywhere else for that matter) having an abortion have any effect on you? Hmmmm it wouldn't.

If your ranting stopped this child from an abortion are you going to be there for her to care for this child while she finishes school? Are you going to support this child until she is old enough to work? Are you going to sit up at night with a sick child so the mother is able to get up the next morning for school? NO your not, so what business would it be of yours? If you think it is your job to save the world Please start by saving the thousands of children who are already here living in poverty, abuse and nelegect.

I have volunteered at Planned parenthood and I've witnessed the (often false) things said to women who are entering the clinic.

-- Posted by cubicalgirl on Thu, Jan 24, 2008, at 12:28 PM

There is a crisis pregnancy center here in town. Have you ever thought about volunteering there?

The Bible is not complete, please stop saying this is the word of god. It isn't. Scholars determined what is in the Bible, Right Devan? You even admitted to it. How can someone believe in such rubbish when it doesn't make any sense. One day, its bad to kill, then another day, its ok if God says so... Make up your mind. How do you know if God said so?

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Thu, Jan 24, 2008, at 5:27 PM

It is the word of God.

It is the word of God.

It is the word of God.

It is the word of God.

It is the word of God.

It is the word of God.

Should I go on?

Like I said. Believe what you like its your choice.

Scholars under devine inspiration. You know me well enough to know how I would respond. I leave enough room in my belief to think that the Bible does not have to be taken literally word for word. Parables for instance have to be understood for what they mean not as descriptions of actual fact. I would also allow an interpretation that the days the world was created in could have been any length and not necessarily 24 of our hours. What I stand on is that from God's work (the Bible) God has given us the foundation for everything we need to know about him. From that we have to work out our own relationship with him.

Scholars under devine inspiration. You know me well enough to know how I would respond. I leave enough room in my belief to think that the Bible does not have to be taken literally word for word. Parables for instance have to be understood for what they mean not as descriptions of actual fact. I would also allow an interpretation that the days the world was created in could have been any length and not necessarily 24 of our hours. What I stand on is that from God's work (the Bible) God has given us the foundation for everything we need to know about him. From that we have to work out our own relationship with him.

-- Posted by devan on Thu, Jan 24, 2008, at 7:11 PM

So did God send divine inspiration for the conspirators who didn't like what was in, to simply leave it out... You can't make a new meal without the complete recipe, so how can you have a complete Bible, or as you call it "God's word" when a vast majority is missing...

Devan, your arguments have absolutely NO merit... I have gone on and on in many blogs here on things god NEVER mentions in the Bible... Why is that? Because it hasn't been revised yet, and new chapters haven't been included...

Cars, computers, televisions, cameras, rubber, plastic, fuel, internet, cell phones, clocks, radios, satellites, microwaves, refrigerators, ovens, stoves, matresses, faucets, showers, glasses, contacts, lasers, surgery.. none of these things, and i could go on FOREVER, were once mentioned in the Bible.. Now, doesn't god always prepare the way for his followers? What about prophets? Don't they predict what is going to happen, based on "devine inspiration"... All these luxuries that we now enjoy, were probably created by men who were at best more invested in science than god. Why were none of these things mentioned? In fact, this "great nation" that many people claim to be "god's chosen" was NEVER mentioned... How then, do we pretend to know everything god meant when someone was given "divine inspiration" when 80% of the things we use on a daily basis, he never even knew about, or if he did, why then is THAT not in your 100%, without flaws, "book"? Oh and like Diana says, the earth is not flat, in fact there is a solar system that was also never mentioned... It's amazing how you can have so much faith in something, that doesn't have any thoughts of modern time? It's like living in the year 2008, but abiding by laws and regulations that are only suitable for life in the 1500s..

Dianatn,

You talking to someone that has no brain nor can he/she facilitate the fact that the bible is so full of holes.

devan,

Scholars under divine inspiration? LOL Are you kidding me? Really, is that the best you can do? Are you seriously losing any credibility that the bible is a true word of god? Do you even know the History of the bible?

Here is a summary:

313 AD, Constantine hires a scholar and instituted the Edict of Milan. His laws and Policies became one with the Church. Constantine was the interpreter of both law and policy therefore of the Church as well. He had hundreds of books eliminated from the bible because they didn't conform to "church" doctrine and blended christian and pagan beliefs that had been established by the Romans.

For example, Christmas was really the birthday of the pagan Sungod.

Later on, Constantine raged war against paganism because it had lost its power of oppression and fear. He outlawed everything Jewish-related like worshipping on Saturday then he eliminated or changed anything with any Jewish principle to suit his doctination.

Constantine and his successors, completely altered biblical doctrine without regard to the edict, set up a church by his own design and set up a set of principles and beliefs, which are now, the basis of all our mainstream Bible-based churches.

There were over 600 books before Constantine, after which 80 remained but changed. In 1885, 14 books were removed by the ArchBishop on Canterbury bring the number to the current 66 of the King James "word of god".

So you are telling me devan, that Constantine, was divinely inspired? And so recently as just in over 120 years ago the 15 other books being removed? How are you so sure that his is truly the "Word of God", if so much is missing?

The sencond commandment says, 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.' Basically it means don't worship idols.

Isn't this canonized Bible an idol that you seem to obey, yet alot of it is missing? And now that you know they are missing you still want continue to do the same thing over and over. Isn't that sin?

Devan, your arguments have absolutely NO merit... I have gone on and on in many blogs here on things god NEVER mentions in the Bible... Why is that? Because it hasn't been revised yet, and new chapters haven't been included...

-- Posted by darrick_04 on Thu, Jan 24, 2008, at 9:59 PM

What you are talking about is an encyclopedia. I could recommend a couple of good ones.

Scholars under divine inspiration? LOL Are you kidding me? Really, is that the best you can do? Are you seriously losing any credibility that the bible is a true word of god? Do you even know the History of the bible?

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Thu, Jan 24, 2008, at 11:02 PM

I spent six years in college studying history so yes I think I know a little about it. Since God created the universe I don't think preserving the Bible the way he wanted would be too much of a problem. But, like LauraSFT said we are way off topic.

devan,

Yes, I did read Thom's post. Holding the Planned Parenthood of 2008 responsible for one woman's thoughts back in 1921 is ridiculous.* That's like saying we should live today by laws that were created when the Pilgrims landed. Are we still buring witches at the stake today?

If you think that the staff at Planned Parenthood are praticing Eugenics you're quite mistaken. Planned Parenthood is a resource for COMPLETE women's healthcare. That includes information on ALL options open to women. They provide regular GYN checkups, birth control, prenatal care, information on sexual health, sterilization (for men as well), abortion, and information on adoption. No one at Planned Parenthood pressures a woman into anything. But you can't make a choice unless you have ALL the CORRECT information, and not misinformation intended to make you do what someone else thinks is right.

*From what I could find through some quick Googling, Sanger became head of the American Birth Control League (what would later evolve into Planned Parenthood) at this time.

You stated you get your beliefs by the "word of god". It is the same thing or do you want to take that literal now?

cubicalgirl,

I was simply stating a fact that the woman that started Planned Parenthood was a self-admitted eugenicist. She believed in a "master race" and didn't bother to hide that fact. To hold an organization that was founded by a person such as this responsible for the ideals under which it was conceived is not ridiculous. Using the pilgrims as a basis for your argument is though. How about we skip forward a few years though and base that on the Constitution. Although some may disagree, we DO still live by those laws, at least until it's destroyed by the liberals and RINO's in Washington.

God is our creator.He created us for His purpose.He is a God of love! He wants us to choose Him.He loves everyone.Please don't reject Him or His word.He is the one true God.For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever believes in Him ,should not perish,but have everlasting life! Isn't that exciting? Blessed are those who believe without seeing.Choose God!Praise the Lord!

Thom wrote:

"I was simply stating a fact that the woman that started Planned Parenthood was a self-admitted eugenicist. She believed in a "master race" and didn't bother to hide that fact. To hold an organization that was founded by a person such as this responsible for the ideals under which it was conceived is not ridiculous. "

Thom, it is ridiculous, because the Planned Parenthood of today does not operate under the same ideas of Eugenics that Margaret Sanger espoused over 80 years ago. Planned Parenthood does not believe in a "master race" and does not do anything to further that agenda. To hold an international organization responsible for one person's beliefs is nonsense (and, BTW, there was another woman who was originally the head of what came to be Planned Parenthood even before Sanger stepped in, so if anything you should take it back to Mary Ware Dennett, who was a pacifist).

Hey, you want to take it to the Constitution? Let's do that. The Constitution is a living, breathing, CHANGING document. When the Constitution was written, women couldn't vote and a black man was considered 3/5 of a whole person. The Constitution changes as the times we live in demand and that is as it should be.

Wow, Thom, as a woman I'd like to thank you for the vote of confidence. Birth control can still fail, even when used correctly. Just because a woman chooses an abortion does not mean she is too stupid or irresponsible to use another method of birth control or didn't think about her actions.

I wish this were about whether or not we had abortions.

It's about whether abortions will be safe,legal,accessible,well-thought-out,unavoidable and voluntary.

cubicalgirl,perhaps you need to be on staff at a crisis pregnancy center for the same reason a devout pro-life advocae should be at a Planned Parenthood clinic.

Why aren't they the same place and run jointly as a public health service?

After all,the idea is to give people the truth and see that the best interests of the clients are served,right?

If you worked side by side,you might be better equipped to offer these families more options than they might have now.

If either agency is operating for its own agenda rather than the welfare of the people,then it needs some close scrutiny and severe correction.

If either looks objectively at the clients' requirements,gives the best counsel available (including full disclosure and honest information about the varied views) and helps the clients make a calm,reasoned choice that meets their needs,then they should have nothing to fear.

The people most in need of support and advice will avoid what is available to them if they think they'll be offered a coercive party line instead of support and strategies for dealing with a demanding time of their lives.

Yes,most people facing an unwanted pregnancy are going to be going through a lot of turmoil.

The rest may not have the means of understanding to know there's anything but their own convenience to worry about.

All the people facing this problem need to feel that they have choices and that there is life beyond this crisis.

It's the not knowing that they can find the right choice for them and implement it that leaves these people confused,frustrated,desperate and easily victimized.

They don't need our politics.

They need emotional support and coping strategies.

Without those,they haven't the means to make a decision or deal with its consequences.

oh and as for taking the proper precautions, my oldest is here simply because the my doctor and the gynecologist I was going to failed to tell me that antibiotics would render birth control less effective. I was taking precautions, they just didn't work. So it's not always carelessness.

You see Thom I did read your post and I did see that you was deciding who should be allowed an abortion. But you are leaving out the women and children that will also need abortions for other reasons.

I was sure you knew how many people were EQUALLY involved in creating a child the problem is do you see how many are EQUALLY involved in caring for the child. The Creation of the child never seems to be a problem, supporting and caring for the child is the REAL issue.

Hmmm...Ok, someone gets pregnant, spends a few days deciding whether or not she wants to keep her baby, then has a surgery to kill the baby which might last a few hours plus a couple of days recovery (I'm simply guessing). You're right, that's probably MUCH tougher than taking care of yourself and your baby for nine months, delivering the baby, and then taking care of it for the next eighteen years. Sorry for being a man and not understanding that.

I'm basically just saying that I'm sick and tired of people not being held accountable for their actions anymore.

I'm basically just saying that I'm sick and tired of people not being held accountable for their actions anymore.

-- Posted by Thom on Sat, Jan 26, 2008, at 12:56 AM

How do you ever expect that, when the very people who are "in charge of our country" have never been held accountable, ONCE...

Amen to both of ya'll.. I so agree!!! It gets tiring to hear a president talk about how he wants to hold other leaders accountable for their actions, yet he forgets he has many problems that he has either, ignored, created or simply failed to confront in his own country...

Along with a poor excuse of a Congress... But "normal" people never get elected, b/c generally they aren't loaded with greed, and corruption...

What I cannot understand is why do so many young girls want to and try and succeed to have babies when not even fully developed yet. Then, they think they deserve to have all the bling their friends do because they've missed out on so much. After ya have a kid, its not about you anymore. Least not for awhile. JMO. And yes, I think if abortion were more available without such a stigma, there would be less on TNCare or CoverTN or whatever they are that we pay for. Not that I favor abortion. Its a sticky situation any way I look at it.

We need to let kids be kids and adults be adults instead of pretending everyone from the cradle to grave is a teenager.

We need to have visual cues for when one stops being a baby and some for when one is old enough to start taking on adult responsibilities.

That way,no one could say "I didn't know they were underage" and posing as someone in another age group would be recognized as deceitful.

We may have passed the time when long curls and gowns could be worn by anyone under six and growing up meant putting up one's hair or wearing long pants.

Surely,we could find some equivalent that would celebrate a tween or teen's growing maturity without shoving them toward adult activities that might cause them harm.

What do we tell them constitutes being an adult?

Smoking? Drinking? Working? Driving? Sexual activity? Voting? Signing contracts? Donating blood? VISTA or military service?

It seems as if we stress inappropriate activities or misuse of good ones.

Instead of just trying a youngster as an adult to make him accountable for his actions,let's try misbehaving elders as children "because it's obvious you don't know how to make responsible choices".

Let's see if we can make it appear more "grown-up" to get an education and be self-supporting than to get wasted,go into debt or have babies that are a decade premature.

Let's give them the idea that the right choices will yield better results and "community service" is a privilege-not a form of "alternative sentencing."

ontheoutside, I have to reply to your Barren comment. When my oldest was about three I was a young single mother (abortion NEVER considered) and had been dating my boyfriend at the time for about two yrs. We got into a huge argument and he made the statement that he could not accept the fact that I had a child by someone else! I looked him in the eye and told him the day might come that he would be glad to have someone elses child, I walked out the door and never looked back! That was 19 yrs. ago and to this day he has no (biological) children and I know for a fact its not by choice... so you just never know!

Oh ok... So is war. So is the death penalty. Why don't you be an "anti advocate" for those.