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Stimulus
Posted Friday, May 1, 2009, at 11:19 PM<< Previous | Read comments | Respond | Email link | Next >>
In December 2008 we, the taxpayers of the United States, advanced General Motors 14.3 billion dollars (TARP). On January 21st we added 5.4 billion dollars and again on February 17th an additional 4 billion dollars.
We then informed General Motors if they wanted additional funds they would have to offer a business plan acceptable to our very competent government. Oh, by the way we fired their CEO. So they came up with a plan that looks promising so we are furnishing an additional 16.6 billion dollars. These dollars in aggregate are for the stated purpose of stimulation of the overall economy, (remember Stimulus Bill) and saving and/or creating jobs. There's some apparent logic there. Yet under the guise of saving and creating jobs we accept a plan and offer GM 16.6 billion dollars if they will institute a plan that eliminates 21,000 jobs! What am I missing here???? Comments Showing comments in chronological order [Show most recent comments first] |
Near lifelong resident of Bedford County. Will comment on the issues of the day in, hopefully a cogent and certainly an honest manner. Will propose discussions not usually fully addressed in the mainstream media.
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You are not missing anything Carl none of this TARP funding is making any sense what-so-ever.
We have handed Chrysler Billions of dollars. Now they are in bankruptcy the taxpayers have given them 25 Billion dollars and the breakdown goes like this: The Government gets an 8% ownership.....UAW ....gets 55% Fiat 37 %. Is it me or does it seem 25 Billion don't buy as much as it once did or is it just because it was our money that was being thrown away that it isn't worth as much. Remember also how well it worked when the Unions owned 55% of United Airline ( or should I say how well it didn't work) And exactly what did Fiat have to give in order to receive 37% of the company? Even though I am still unsure why they would want a dying bred.
Now in the bankruptcy process the big losers will be the small companies who provide parts for Chrysler they are owed millions of dollars by the automaker..they will not be getting the money for the work they have already supplied..will this mean more small companies folding? Of course it will thus more jobs being lost just to try and save the Unions. I sit back and listen to this nonsense and quietly shake my head in confusion.
And honestly it is just as bad with the banks..we are giving them Billions of dollars and they STILL can not report a profit. The banks say they are earning a profit but in reality they are not..their stocks look like a merry-go round with their one day we are in good shape and the next day close to failing. All while I watch my 401K become nothing more than a blank piece of paper.
And what's up with AIG they have been scooted under the radar lately haven't they?
You can look at it as, well they are eliminating 21,000 jobs, but if there were no intervention you could easily quadruple that number. So in reality, the underlying moral to the story isn't that 21,000 jobs are being lost.. it's that 80 to 100,000 are being saved.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/f...
This link displays the largest employers in the U.S. ... So, saving the 80 to 100 thousand jobs I mentioned was an understatement. GM could close its doors permanently, and lose all 243,000 of its employees, and thus the ripple effect to suppliers would be more painstaking than it already is. I don't think the saying "If GM goes, so goes the economy" is relevant in this global economy... however, that could potentially eliminate an astronomical amount of jobs in record time.
What I can't grasp is every presidential election we hear from both parties about how we are going to save American jobs, keep them from shipping production and finance operations overseas, and reward them for continuing to invest in America. Finally, someone took a bold stance and has done just about all he can do to hold true to that promise, and the only comments some have are nothing but cynical. Yes, it is a burden to the tax payers (initially), but the very people who complained about America losing millions of jobs prior to the election, are willing to do whatever it takes to lose hundreds of thousands more. I don't want to own G.M., as a taxpayer, because I don't really even want to buy a G.M. car, but that doesn't mean I want to see the company, and the millions that depend on it, fail.Investing in the American people, can sometimes seem expensive, but the end result is nearly always priceless.
The Chrysler deal was interesting. The bankruptcy went through when a significant number of bond holders held out to receive more than the .04 on the dollar they were offered. Unfortunately for them, many of the bond holders had also received TARP money so the government used considerable leverage to make them hold their noses and swallow.
GM will be a whole different animal. The bond holders for GM have not received TARP funds and you can bank on the fact that they'll stick to their guns to get a decent return. If the administration tries the same strong arm tactics with the GM bond holders they may get punched in the mouth. The bond holders have enough power to force this into bankruptcy and take their chances in court, without a brokered deal from Obama.
I think the biggest problem with the government intervention in both the banks and industry is the fact that the administration has no clue as to an exit strategy (where have I heard that before...hmmm?) They have no benchmarks that have to be met in order to get out of the banking or auto business. That's assuming they WANT to get out of the banking and auto business. The way it stands now, it just looks like a humungous power grab by the government on two of the most vital parts of the American economy.
So in reality, the underlying moral to the story isn't that 21,000 jobs are being lost.. it's that 80 to 100,000 are being saved.
-- Posted by darrick_04 on Sat, May 2, 2009, at 10:53 AM
That would only be true if Chrysler customers never again bought another vehicle-from anyone.
The truth is if Chrysler stopped making cars other makes would pick up the slack, meaning they would have to hire more workers. There would be a net reduction of workers, sure, but union shops are notoriously overstaffed, and inefficient anyway.
Quietmike I agree completely with your last two statements, but to the first statement I was referring to saving GM jobs, not Chrysler.
Now there are claims that the White House is using bullying techniques against creditors in the Chrysler bankruptcy situation which could be considered an abuse of power.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/...
It has been denied by the White House and other sources.
Well of course they deny. Is that not what they have been doing since day one? And we have Turbo Tax Tim going to catch all the tax dodgers. Ironic dont you think. And if anybody disagrees,,, well that's just racism at work doncha know. And I have news for those who haven't noticed yet, the change that you were promised is what you still have in the bottom of your purse or pocket. The rest of it goes to cover the Residents travel expenses as he jets around to various restaurants or has their cooks flown to him. I really wish I had been wrong in my earlier opinion of the ONE, but I'm afraid I wasn't.
Do any of you think this swine flu is the ole switch and bait? Maybe building this thing up more than it actually is through the media in order to get the public thinking of something else besides the economy. MRSA and Staph infection kills more people every month than this flu has and certainly the regular ole flu has killed many many more this year alone than the swine flu has..after all it wouldn't be the first time our attention has been attempted to be diverted to something of lesser importance, than what is actually happening. It does make going under the radar much easier, especially when you put fear in the public..
So, we're basically paying GM $97530.86 for EVERY employee they have...just to keep the doors open? And there's no telling how much more WE will have to shell out because our government is socializing the auto industry, the banking industry, health care...hmmm...I wonder when Exxon will step in and say that they're not making BILLIONS every month and ask for a bailout. Ok, that wasn't fair, we give them one every summer.
Socializing, socializing, socializing... the one thing that is true about socialism, it DIDN'T cause the mess we're in now.
I do not believe it was bait and switch. I think the administration overeacted before they had all the info, and that's not necessarily a bad thing in this case. I am glad they took action and think they did a pretty good job for the most part.
The stimulus is another overeaction by the administration, that's putting it mildly. How anyone can defend these ridiculous stimulus packages and bailouts is beyond me. From reading some comments I haven't really seen anyone defend theses actions and make any sense.
Nascarfanatic,
Socialism might not have entirely caused this mess (although it can be argued it was a big part) but it sure won't make it better.
Socialism might not have entirely caused this mess (although it can be argued it was a big part) but it sure won't make it better.
-- Posted by greasemonkey on Thu, May 7, 2009, at 11:13 PM
I'd like to hear that argument.
Socialism might not have entirely caused this mess (although it can be argued it was a big part) but it sure won't make it better.
-- Posted by greasemonkey on Thu, May 7, 2009, at 11:13 PM
Of course, you have no proof of that. The last I checked we began this "recession" in 2007, that was a full year before Obama was any sort of front runner in the election process. I didn't hear anyone crying about socialism then, yet nearly four months into Obama's first term as president signs of a recovery are piling up. I don't know what else to say, but the proof is in the numbers.
From the article below: "It was the eighth gain for the index in nine weeks." That's right, 8 out of 9 weeks Wall Street (capitalism) has seen an increase in value. Yet, you can't see where some government loans helped anything? Try asking those, who just four months ago saw their 401ks and life savings dwindle away in the blink of an eye, and now... those accounts are beginning to regain their losses.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Evidence-p...
Runnin by,
The socialism I was speaking of was the multitude of govt programs that enabled unqualified people to purchase homes they couldn't afford. Also while it may not be socialsim, the hemmoraging of jobs overseas coupled with an influx of illegal immigrants. There has to alsp be considered the govt involvement in mandating new diesel fuels which skyrocketed diesel prices and that ball just rolls down hill. I could go on all nite. While the govt was not the only issue I think it is clear they were, and continue to be, the main problem with our economy.
Nascarfanatic,
I never said when socialism started, I believe it started several administrations prior. And if you didn't hear any cries about socialism then it was because you weren't listening. I have said in the past Bush was socialist-lite. He instituted more govt growth and programs than any other pres in history with a couple of exceptions.
Proof is not in the numbers, the economy naturally expands and contracts. While an enormous influx of money injected into the economy will artificially inflate numbers, but somebodys gonna have to pay for all this stupidity and the problem will still not be solved.
Proof is in the numbers. You can disregard the numbers, but proof is there. The economy naturally expands and contracts.... BLAH. People run the "free markets" and people run the government.. at the end of the day, they are both just PEOPLE. So it honestly doesn't matter who is injecting money, and who isn't.
To continue to deny that greed and capitalism didn't play a role in this recession, is just like those that still deny the earth is round.
To continue to deny that greed and capitalism didn't play a role in this recession, is just like those that still deny the earth is round.
-- Posted by nascarfanatic on Sat, May 9, 2009, at 11:46 PM
Capitalism is not human. Greed is a human trait.
And most likely ( only speculating ) the financial wizards of the modern day have been educated in a liberal or socialist college by a liberal or socialist professor in a liberal or socialist city. It is a fact that the greater the populous the more liberal a city is.
I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the grand rip-off artist are registered loyal democrats.
Where did all the oil speculators go? They made their money and got gone, gas has normalized and theres been no word of anyone being prosecuted.
The oil speculators were employees of financial institutions and hedge fund organizations that placed bets on the price of oil going up, thus the people who in essence control the market did what they do well and manipulated the price. Oil coming from the ground today is no less scare than it was three years ago... so why have the prices dropped? Because those who speculated the prices saw their bottom lines crumble with the housing market, thus a ripple effect. And how is my problem that you can't many conservatives willing and able to teach students who attend college? Free thinkers usually are encouraged to teach, those who think inside the box are more allotted for factory work, in a mechanistic environment.
Nascarfanatic,
There is no more free market. There is a govt controlled semi-free market.
It does matter who is injecting money into the economy, when you steal from one group and give it to another because of poor business decisions,that amounts to tyranny. The economy does expand and contract naturally, it always has.
I am sorry that freedom has left such a bad taste in your mouth.
And how is my problem that you can't many conservatives willing and able to teach students who attend college?
What? Don't type angry, Yoda maintains better sentence structures...just teasing ya nascarfanatic.
I've enjoyed living in other countrys during my growing years and can promise you that there is no greater place to live than HERE!
The things that we fuss about amungst each other only proves our worldly ignorance.
1. To this day slavery exist in many places around the world, yet all I hear is "its the white man". Not in the world arena...
2. WOMENS RIGHTS!!! But the National Organization of Women has no opinion on the behavior of extremist muslim men and the abuses they perpetrate on their wives physically or elsewise.
3. Have you ever heard of an organization for gay muslims? Of course not
Crud! Urgent customer call, and they do come first. I'll get back as quickly as posssible and continue the line of thought.
I am sorry that freedom has left such a bad taste in your mouth.
-- Posted by greasemonkey on Sun, May 10, 2009, at 11:40 PM
What about your freedom has changed since Obama took office? Nothing. It has not maneuvered one iota.
I never said it changed when Obama took office, I was refering to your apparent rejoice of the continuing trip to socialism. There is no freedom in socialism or tyranny.
And I guess Democracy is freedom eh? Patriot Act? Illegal wiretapping? Going to war against every legal ramification imaginable? Yeah, replacing tyranny and then preceding to IMPOSE OUR WAY OF "LIFE" etc, is a bit hypocritical.
Its funny you should mention the Patriot Act and Illegal wiretapping, I was just wondering yesterday when this administration was going to do away with those things like was promised. I have always disliked those issues so I dont really understand where your going with your argument.
And yes ,to answer your question, Democracy is freedom. Or at least was at one time. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. Just because we have had some poor leadership (and its getting worse and worse every year) doesnt mean democracy doesnt work. It just means we are continuing to vote for morons.
Democracy isn't freedom. Never has been, never will be. Under the cloak of Democracy we have seen women, blacks, gays, non-Christians, etc all ridiculed and even murdered for simply being different. It may be freedom, if you don't fit into any of those categories, but it has never been freedom for everyone, except the oppressors.
How are women, blacks, gays or non-christians any less free than anyone else? And who are these evil oppressors? I understand as a country that we have done some horrible things, but that still doesnt mean that democracy doesnt work. And for the most part we have corrected our problems, such as slavery and womens rights. I dont see how gays or non-christians are having issues right now.
Women and blacks have equal rights.. but they didn't use to. Gays still don't have equal rights, but that will soon be a thing of the past, just like the other two are finally a thing of the past. Your last sentence isn't the least bit surprising. Just like those, decades ago, who didn't think women or blacks were not equal. But then again, who cares. Progression happens, and all you can do is offer lateral thinking that has been replaced with a new vision.
To place the oppression of blacks or the fight for womens rights in the same catagory as sexually deviant behavior is ridiculous.
You still kinda dodged the issue, so I will form it in a question. How are gays or non-christians being oppressed or how do they not have equal rights to everyone else?
Russia had a progressive "new vision" one time too.
I think we have gotten off of the issue though. I am glad to see these bailouts have kept the automakers out of bankruptcy and they arent hemmoraging jobs, lol. OH wait it hasnt worked, aw shucks, lets throw another trillion at it and see if that works.
And throwing a trillion in on two wars has accomplished what? Where was your tea party then?
Sexually deviant? According to the Bible, anything outside of missionary is an abomination.. Guess you're going to hell.
Throwing money at two wars hasn't accomplished much, but why change the subject. How can the current administration justify wasting money because the previous administration did? Are they trying to come in first in a stupid contest? We all know Bush was a poor president, we have all said it, but that still doesn't justify digging a much much deeper hole.
As far as the tea party comment, I believe everyday for the past 6 or so years has been bash Bush day. The tea partys where partly there in response to his bad decisions. They are there because people wanted change, not more of the same and then some.
Also, I'm not sure what the missionary comment was all about, but I can assure you I'm not going to hell.
BTW,
I see that the current administration has ended both wars and brought all our troops home, LOL.
They will.. but unlike you, we don't expect miracles.
Lol, that was the answer I expected.