Healthcare?

There's not one person who is in need of care in this country that doesn't receive it. If you don't believe this, just go hang out out at any hospital emergency room on any given night of the week. Not one single person genuinely in need has ever been turned away, regardless of ability to pay. According to most estimates, only about 3% of the population are having a health care crisis at any given time. Out of those questioned, an overwhelming majority state that they are satisfied with their health care. Why tear down and rebuild the whole system just because a few don't like it? People from all over the world come to America for their health care needs because we have the best available. Government provided health care will mean higher taxes and in order to control costs, rationing will absolutely have to happen. There's no way around it. Those with insurance will be taxed on their benefits to help fund this mess.

There is not one single taxpayer funded program or agency in this country that isn't ripe with corruption, mismanagement and outright fraud. It's been stated by the Democrats repeatedly that government funded health care will stimulate competition. Just exactly which insurance companies will be in a position to compete with an entity that can print it's own money and raise taxes on a whim?

I'm currently reading every single page of this proposed health care bill and what I've read so far scares the hell out of me. This bill is NOT about health care. It's actully about the liberals in government attempting to control every aspect of our lives. The majority of the people in this country are dead set against this, yet our elected officials want to cram this legislation down our throats anyway.

READ the bill! Tax payer funded abortion on demand is in there. Health care rationining is in there. If you don't believe this bill will insure illegals, think again. Mr. Obama has already stated his next project will be immigration reform, meaning anmesty for illegals. They will then become American citizens and will be covered. This administration has openly stated that they wish to model our health care after Great Brittain and Canada, both of which are miserable failures when it comes to health care. Time to wake up people!

I agree Tattoos & Scars

What gets me is Obama took 6 months to pick out a DOG, so why his he in such a hurry to pass something that will effect every man, woman, and childs life in the US.

Once all the illegals have anmesty they will vote Democrat and it will be very hard for a Republican to hold an office in this country.

Be careful what you wish for, it is better to want something you don't have, then to have something you don't want.

Wow Nathan, you drank a bunch of the koolaid didn't ya?

I guess the best thing to do is read the bill and make up your own mind. We already know that the folks in congress won't read it. The liberal idiots on both sides of the isle will just rubber stamp it. It takes a bit of time for this over 1,000 pages of nonsense to load, but here's the link. www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

Enjoy!

"Nathan Evans says his employer pays $1200/month for his healthcare, yet obama says the government plan will cost only $750/year???.....if you believe this is true I have a green steel bridge on Cannon Blvd for ya."

How many times have I been to the doctor during the six years since I was honorably discharged from the United States Marine Corps? Twice. Once to get antibiotics to get rid of an infection. Total time spent at the doctor's office: 20 minutes. The second doctor visit I had was last week to get four stitches in my hand. Total time spent at the doctor's office: 30 minutes. Both trips required zero lab work. Total money paid into insurance during this seven year period: $100,800.

Nathan, Abortion on Demand is in there, and that is coming from a democrat congressman WHO IS ALSO A 30+ ob/gyn DOCTOR.

Also keep in mind that the Congressional Budget Office (a non-partisan group) says obamacare WILL NOT reduce healthcare costs and WILL drive up government deficit spending.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009...

Nathan, Abortion on Demand is in there, and that is coming from a democrat congressman WHO IS ALSO A 30+ ob/gyn DOCTOR.

-- Posted by Nocturnal Jeff on Sun, Aug 30, 2009, at 1:56 PM

Even if it was, which it isn't and I dare you to post the exact line of the bill that it is on, abortion is legal in the country and can be performed legally in all 50 states.

And to you QuietMike, while I am sure I could spend my day researching every government agency and return to you a list of government agencies that operate in the black, I will instead for convenience point out that President Clinton was able to manage our budget to allow four consecutive years of budget surpluses.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS...

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy08/s...

"A good example is the post office. The post office receives competition from FedEx and UPS. But how many $.44 letters have you received via UPS? You see the post office performs a service that we all need and that we all don't want to pay much for. Mailing a Christmas card or a check to pay a bill should not cost $9. UPS and FedEx want no part of that business. They instead opted to take up the parts of the postal services' job that can be profitable. Do you think any private organization would take up the task of delivering letters and coupons to every single address in the United States for the low, low price the post office does it for?" --Nathan Evans

If you did some research you would find that the USPS has a monopoly on the delivery of letter mail. The PES (Private Express Statutes) consists of 18 U.S.C. § 1693--1696 and 39 U.S.C. § 601--606, implemented under 39 Code of Federal Regulations Parts 310 and 320. These forbid all carriage and delivery of letter mail by private organizations. So FedEx and UPS are prohibited by law from delivering letters and using personal or business mailboxes. Therefore your argument is invalid.

I have read most of HR3200 and as near as I can tell Nathan you are correct that it does not specifically mention paying for abortion on demand.

"Even if it was, which it isn't and I dare you to post the exact line of the bill that it is on, abortion is legal in the country and can be performed legally in all 50 states." -- Nathan Evans

So, as you say, since it is a legal procedure it will undoubtedly be covered as a routine medical procedure. Often what is not specifically mentioned is more important than what is mentioned.

I would urge people on either side of the healthcare issue to quit accepting the talking points, do some research, and most of all think for yourselves!

Let's take it one step further tl. Why do you think a law was created that prohibited private organizations from delivering letter mail? The answer proves my point in case you were wondering.

"The Hyde Amendment is attached to annual funding for Health and Human Services appropriations. It will not apply to HR3200."

Health and Human Services appropriations, hmmmm... I wonder what that has to do with how federal tax dollars are spent regarding health care in America? I really need to think hard to figure this one out. 8-|

"Maybe UPS or FedEx couldn't deliver a letter profitably for $0,44. I don't know the answer nor do you. The point is we will never know because they will not have the chance."

Actually I do know the answer tl. Let us imagine that private companies could begin to deliver letter mail. Which areas do you think they would choose to deliver mail to? Now correct me if I am wrong, but most companies choose to begin operations in one or a collection of the top metropolitan service areas (New York, Chicago, Atlanta, etc) in order to reach millions of customers in a small geographic area. If a private company was allowed to compete in only the most profitable areas of the United States they would of course stand a chance to make money delivering mail. But at the same time, the post office would be forced to compete with a company that did not have the burden of delivering mail to the least or not profitable rural areas. Because the post office provides a necessary service at the lowest possible price to all Americans, both urban and rural, it is in the best interest of the people that it be allowed to function without competition.

Also the post office provides needed centralized organization to the American landscape in the form of physical addresses. While this is not a function that cannot be performed by a different agency, having the post office perform this function makes good sense.

Will insurance premiums that individuals pay for their healthcare under HR3200 be considered tax dollars? If they are then the Hyde Amendment might apply, (which I still doubt since it is not directly attached to HR3200). I think you could easily make the argument that they are not tax dollars, hence not federal funding. So, maybe this is something we do need to think about.

Will insurance premiums that individuals pay for their healthcare under HR3200 be considered tax dollars? If they are then the Hyde Amendment might apply, (which I still doubt since it is not directly attached to HR3200). I think you could easily make the argument that they are not tax dollars, hence not federal funding. So, maybe this is something we do need to think about.

-- Posted by tl on Sun, Aug 30, 2009, at 5:42 PM

I am of the opinion that the program would be much like Medicare or perhaps and extension of Medicare itself. Also some form of employer matching would probably occur in the same way that it does with Medicare and Social Security.

The Obama administration just recently admitted that they goofed up on projected 10 year defecits. They projected 7 trillion dollars and the actual figure comes to about 9 trillion dollars. Quite a big screw up for someone his supporters touted as being "ready to lead from day one". He also told us that if we did not pass the stimulus bill, unemployment would reach 8%, well it did pass and employment went to 9.5%. He and Joseph Biden both admitted to "misreading" the economy. Just how many more screw ups is this "natural born leader" entitled to?

Now don't get started on me about George Bush, I did'nt approve of very many things he did either.

Quietmike said - "There has never been a government anything that has been cheaper than the private sector can provide"

Do we really want Halliburton running everything?

If you believe that healthcare is a business (and I can tell you it is) then why do we completely abandon free market principles in order to contain costs? It would seem to me to be an oxymoron.

The only government mandate that makes any sense is for the government to require everyone to carry some type of coverage much like we require automobile coverage. If you notice there has been an entire industry that has sprouted because of it, low cost basic car coverage. The government has no "competing" plan in the auto coverage market. If you exclude illegal immigrants, the bulk of the medically uninsured are young and healthy (a great demographic for insurers) or wealthy and healthy (an even better demographic). Why can't we use the same principles?

The government "competing" plan is a joke. Here we have an entity that can raise money through premiums AND taxation, gets to define what is a "qualifying" plan, can change said definition at any point, and outlaws private insurance from enrolling any new clients if it doesn't qualify. OK, folks that is NOT a level playing field. Compound that with the fact that cannot deliver on budget promises and you have a simple power grab of 1/6th of the economy.

Live For Light you need to go back and read what you said. You are confused. Clinton's budgets led to four years of surpluses. That means that we spent less money than we took in during that year. I never said the nation paid off the entire national debt when Clinton was president, which is what I think you are trying to say that I said. The surplus was not projected, it was reality.

I want to remind everyone of the math involved in my companies health insurance plan.

40 Employees X $1200 premium per person = $48,000 per month

$48,000 per month X 12 months = $576,000 per year

$576,000 X 10 years = $5,760,000 per decade

Private insurance is such a good system... for the health insurance providers.

"A good example is the post office. The post office receives competition from FedEx and UPS. But how many $.44 letters have you received via UPS? You see the post office performs a service that we all need and that we all don't want to pay much for. Mailing a Christmas card or a check to pay a bill should not cost $9. UPS and FedEx want no part of that business. They instead opted to take up the parts of the postal services' job that can be profitable"`Nathan Evans

Do you really think this is a good example? If private companies in the insurance industry take only the parts of the insurance that are profitable, that leaves the U.S. Government holding the bag, a bag full of debt. Who pays that debt? So, on that point your argument is invalid. This link is from 7/30/2009, and it is unlikely that much has improved. http://marketplace.publicradio.org/displ...

I agree that something needs to be done about the state of health care/ health insurance, but I am sure that a thousand page bill that no one really understands, and that most of our legislators have never read is the answer.

You can say there is no one particular bill ready yet, but HR 3200 is the one that is being debated the most, it is the one the House wants to pass.

But, what I would really like to know is this: If President Obama intends to keep his campaign promise of letting the American people weigh in on legislation before it is passed, why is he demanding that Congress rush this legislation to him before the end of the year?

His actual promise is that before he signs a bill, the people are supposed to have 5 days to comment on it on a Whitehouse web-site. A promise he has already broken several times. One important fact to consider, is that "final" pieces of legislation are often much different from "working" pieces of legislation.

Here is a link to verify the broken "Sunlight' promise: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...

On a side note, I wonder what happened to the USPS, because at one time, as recently as 2005, they were in the black. I believe that was from a government mandate-either legislation, or directive that they had to operate without a loss.

http://www.usps.com/communications/news/... Now, if the government could run health care in the manner described in this link for the USPS, I would support that effort 100%

Naathan, Like I said earlier. A DEMOCRAT CONGRESSMAN had the actual HR23200 bill and when asked that very question read the "wordage" line for line in the bill that pertained to reproductive services.

IT EXPLICITLY SAYS ANY REPRODUCTIVE SERVICES a WOMAN REQUESTS OR THE DOCTORS DEEMS NECESSARY WILL BE COVERED UNDER HR3200.

This Congressman is also a 30+ year OB/GYN doctor and said you didn't need a PHD to understand what that means.

Having read most of your posts on this subject, you are seriously ignorant of the facts about healthcare and this bill.

Nathan - You started off complaining about the health care problems. "It is amazing to me that a nation that is 85% Christian and proudly stands up when someone says we are the greatest nation on Earth, would let a human being suffer without access to medical treatment."

Then when people noted that there are no actual health "care" problems, you called them liars and changed your complaint to a health "insurance" problem.

"I am not sure when 47 million became three percent of 300 million"

- Roughly 20% of YOUR 47 million are illegals or non-resident aliens.

"Of that 97% that are happy with their health insurance coverage, how many are on Medicaid, Medicare, VA, or State funded plans?"

- Have you BEEN to the VA? I have, I've been waiting for almost FIVE YEARS to get some things taken care of that occurred on active duty. That's the wait, JUST TO GET APPOINTMENTS! Oh sure, you can go see the clinics there for routine things, but if you need a specialist of ANY sort you're looking at MONTHS of waiting until your appointment. Then they have the habit of canceling those appointments without bothering to tell you (or the doctor that scheduled them) why. I only use the VA for service connected issues but there are those that have to use them as a PCP. I CERTAINLY wouldn't want to do that.

You claim that EVERYTHING IS A LIE, but refuse to provide any evidence to back up your accusations. You claim that you don't know what people are referring to when they talk about "the health care reform" bill, but you turn around and say that a particular item or the other is not included in it (even though you probably still haven't read it). H.R. 3200 is the most talked about piece of legislation in process right now.

"How many times have you called a corporation and been passed around to department after department and still not receive any resolution to your problem?"

- Have you EVER called a federal government office and gotten a straight answer from the first person that you spoke with?

"The USPS is a very good example if your goal is to provide low cost service to every man, woman, and child in America."

- YES! If you don't mind that the goal includes the multi-billion dollar deficit that goes with it. The USPS can't deliver letter mail profitably for 44¢ per letter. That's why they're trying to cut back on days of service and closing down branched.

If anyone dares to question you regarding this issue, you resort to petty name calling and literary wonders such as "Save the drama for your mama, Thom." I did go back and read some more of that wonderful blog and wished that you were more of an adult than that. I guess not. I guess the USMC didn't do much for your maturity, shame.

Since nathan can't tell us of a government agency that operates in the black, maybe he can tell us what society has ever been successful practicing socialism. He also stated that Great Brittain and Canada's health care system were not failures. I wouldn't exactly describe having to wait 6 months for a medical procedure as a success. I've never read nor heard one interview with anyone living in those countries that approved of their national health care system. Great Brittain's own parliment describes their health care system as an abysmal failure and a burden upon it's people.

Keep pushing me Thom.

Since nathan can't tell us of a government agency that operates in the black, maybe he can tell us what society has ever been successful practicing socialism. He also stated that Great Brittain and Canada's health care system were not failures. I wouldn't exactly describe having to wait 6 months for a medical procedure as a success. I've never read nor heard one interview with anyone living in those countries that approved of their national health care system. Great Brittain's own parliment describes their health care system as an abysmal failure and a burden upon it's people.

-- Posted by Tattoos & Scars on Sun, Aug 30, 2009, at 9:51 PM

People can read and decide on their own what is right and what is wrong. I am not ashamed of anything I have said on these blogs and I feel that I am on the side of the common good and humanity. Personally I would be a little skeptical of anyone that misspells Britain while commenting about Great Britain's health care system.

I went back and read about Clintons budget surplus as you suggested.

Seems there are several charts that show a surplus based on "fuzzy math" as Bush put it. Meaning that the debt is graphed and shown "as a percentage of GDP," "corrected for inflation" etc,

But if you look at the straight dollar amount as shown on this link http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/faq.ht... you will see that the dollar amount has NEVER gone down, although it did flatten significantly during the clinton years. Why shouldn't it with the largest tax increase in history.

The tax increases that are coming with Obama's plan will make those look like a cake walk when that debt comes home.

-- Posted by Liveforlight on Sun, Aug 30, 2009, at 10:07 PM

Again are you talking about the national debt or the annual budget? I was talking about the annual budget which according to the spreadsheet below yielded surpluses between 1998 and 2001.

The bottom line is Dr. Tim wants to keep his healthy paycheck.

Really Nathan is that the best you can do? I expected more. Pretty weak.

Because it is a fundamental need for all. Certain services are so important that the government must ensure that they are accessible for all.

I would argue that there are even more fundamental needs such as clothing, food and shelter. Would you advocate government supply these as well?

The problem is that insurance companies are still in control of the price. I trust my government much more than I trust a multi-billion dollar corporation.

No, under the above scenario the market determines the price. And as far as trusting your government more than a "multi-billion dollar corporation" good luck with that. You'll need it.

The big difference is that the people that cannot get car insurance typically gave up their ability to receive affordable car insurance because of bad behavior such as speeding or DUI. People that cannot afford health insurance are guilty of getting cancer or having a rare illness.

The vast majority of people who cannot get coverage participate in risky behavior. Smoking, alcohol, poor lifestyle contribute to their current condition. This is analogous to your speeding example, If you require coverage of everyone there will be a product for them, just more expensive (if you've ever been through a life insurance exam you can relate). This leaves a very few with no options.

Yes, tl I did in fact graduate in 1980. I finished in 3 1/2 years so I wasn't around much the last semester.

Keep pushing me Thom.

-- Posted by nathan.evans on Sun, Aug 30, 2009, at 10:06 PM

Is that supposed to be some sort of vague threat, Nathan?

You put your ideas out there and call others liars and idiots when they question you, but you're not accountable for your posts? You quote Wikipedia as a resource but question other people on their sources of information.

Grow up and stop being such a whiner. I've got a news flash for you...LIFE IS NOT FAIR! Deal with it. If you want to live in a communist or socialist country, they're only a plane ticket away. Please go there so you'll be happy. Stop trying to change OUR country into one.

"drinking while under the influence of alcohol should carry a mandatory sentence of one year imprisonment."

What??

MY arguments are ridiculous? YOU want to incarcerate people for DRINKING WHILE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF ALCOHOL!

I don't have to formulate an argument of any sort, you never bother to reply with anything more than your typical liberal gibberish anyway.

"drinking while under the influence of alcohol should carry a mandatory sentence of one year imprisonment."

What??

-- Posted by Thom on Sun, Aug 30, 2009, at 11:05 PM

Too light of a sentence?

-- Posted by nathan.evans on Sun, Aug 30, 2009, at 11:13 PM

Oh lol, I meant driving. You know what I meant Thom.

It's my bedtime. Take care Thom.

Nathan, I thought I made that clear. I was talking about the national debt. So you are saying there was a budget surplus based on Clinton's budget. How can you have a surplus and at the same time increase the national debt? Where did this supposed surplus go?

Surpluses like this would land me in bankruptcy court sooner or later. Hmmmmmmmmm.. wonder who will bail out the U.S?

Nathan, That last paragraph in your post at 11:01 proves you know nothing of liberty, freedom,and what it means to be a True American. You want people to have the freedoms YOU deem necessary but dare people to have any desires or thoughts of their own.

That is the typical Democrat belief. Freedom of speech is only allowed when it agrees with them. Freedom is what they deem it to be and only what they deem it to be.

There was NO budget surplus under Clinton. The National treasury Dept. has debunked that lie time and time again.

The Democrats told us during the last campaign that their agenda was to slow down the American economy. Well, they are doing it. And you are nothing but a unpaid mouthpiece for their agenda.

Read the bill for yourselves! Educate yourselves on this topic. However, being pre-law once upon a time...I had extreme difficulty with the wording of the bill. In addition to the actual wording is the continual referencing of three other documents that you have to have on hand to understand the context of what your reading.

Bills should be written in laymen's terms. It is elitist and pretentious to write these bills in terms that the average person can not understand.

We SHOULD go slow on this reform.

In regards to nocturnal jeff's references to all the government help. He is right. I make minimum wage. My child has lupus. The help is there if you need it.

I think this subject, like many others, boils down to "entitlement". If I didn't have insurance(there have been times), then its my responsibility to take care of myself. Not everyone in this life gets the top of the line. If people made conscious choices about how they live and preventative measures, then this wouldn't be an issue because there wouldn't be a burden on the existing system.

I'm the working poor, but I ask for only the most minimum of assistance. There have been people "milking" the system for decades. If there were more local control and less federal control, I believe there would be more control of system abusers. I have neighbors who bring in $2000+ a month on disability. You see, they can't work because of an injury. However, in 100 degree heat they build fences. I've seen them move furniture. They mow their yard. They milk the system. I've reported it anonymously to no avail.

And, one more time for those who didn't catch it, I am responsible for my own choices and lifestyle. I am NOT entitled to anything simply because I am an American. I would rather go without ANY insurance than to have national coverage.

Personal responsibility is the key. However, you CAN'T LEGISLATE moral values and you can't legislate responsible behavior. Every time its been done, it has failed.

Abortion, abortion, abortion...

Watch this youtube of John Stossel exposing Canada and socialized medicine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9u2UU6-w...

Democrats or Republicans, what difference does it make, we're all going down on this ship together. We should be civil along the way....

-- Posted by Freedomof Speech on Mon, Aug 31, 2009, at 3:24 PM

Did you really mean this????

As for me I'll try to stop the ship from sinking instead of timidly standing by.

What "mess" are you referring to that was here before obama?

Most of your opinions shouldn't be trusted because they are based on false data and outright lies.

First off, I am not cheerleading any bill. I am only encouraging reform of the current health care system. Got it? Good.

Most of what I have seen several of you do is cry about abortion and point your finger and scream "socialist" or "liberal", neither of which are terms that can be used to define me. You see quietmike, unlike you and your band of flunkies, I and others like me see the importance of incorporating the best characteristics of all systems. We understand that no system is 100% flawless, but the most successful system will be a blend of all systems. I am not Democrat and I am not Republican, I am American and I only want what is best for America. And I guess I need to explain this to you again... I don't have to answer your questions. If I choose to address you then I will. If I do not address you then you can assume that I thought your question was not worth my time or I was busy. Believe me, if you say something intelligent or if I agree with you, I would signal my approval or surrender my point.

nathan,

I for one appreciate your posts because it gives me insight into the liberal mind. You may deny being liberal or having socialist leanings but action(posts) speak louder than words.

You are right we are Americans. America is the first represenative republic to have had the wisdom and forbearance of those who lived under tyranny, to put in place the countermeasures to keep us on course.

The republicans, and even more so, the democrats have been, and are working, at an accelerated rate to discard the system of checks and balances that has kept us free and made the country great for more than 200 yrs.

Congress, the judicial system, and the legislative branch, are supposed to keep each other in check and make sure the will of the American people is carried out. Instead they are covering each others tracks while our voices are not heard. Those who trust the government with their the lives and well being are not what this country was built on. It was built on the God given rights and responsibilities of the individual.

Socialism has it's allure, just as Robin Hood did, but in the end Robin hood was just a thief. Anything he gave to the poor was more likely intended to keep him hidden, protected, and in a healthy stream of victims ready for the picking. That is, until there were no more victims to be had.

We will never solve our problems by doing what we know is fundamentally wrong. 9 Trillion dollars for healthcare means $30,000 per person in the U.S. Do you have your $30,000 ready to send in or do you expect to be on the receiving end?

I haven't cried socialist or liberalist, republican or democrat.

I just want to be able to get the surgeries and/or treatment that myself or my spouse might need and not have to worry about dying before the public health system decides that it is my turn and/or that it is worthy.

I also do not want to pay a hefty premium so that Nathan can spend a few minutes at the doctor's or get an antibiotic for free while I am waiting for months or years to get major treatment.

And what degree or training or life experience makes you think you are so much more intelligient than anyone else?

We will never solve our problems by doing what we know is fundamentally wrong. 9 Trillion dollars for healthcare means $30,000 per person in the U.S. Do you have your $30,000 ready to send in or do you expect to be on the receiving end?

-- Posted by Liveforlight on Mon, Aug 31, 2009, at 8:11 PM

I am not real sure where you are getting this 9 trillion dollar figure. Are you saying that the government spends or will spend 9 trillion dollars on health care annually? You have repeated this statement a couple of times now and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I also do not want to pay a hefty premium so that Nathan can spend a few minutes at the doctor's or get an antibiotic for free while I am waiting for months or years to get major treatment.

-- Posted by Tinarb on Mon, Aug 31, 2009, at 9:14 PM

Tinarb I think you missed the part where I explained that me and my employer have paid over $100,000 in health insurance premiums over the last 7 years. During that seven years I have spent a total of 50 minutes at the doctor's office. Out of curiosity Tinarb, what year were you born?

Nathan, I hate to point out the error of your ways, but in an earlier post, you misspelled another word or two. Are YOUR opinions still to be trusted any more than anyone elses?

Nathan, I hate to point out the error of your ways, but in an earlier post, you misspelled another word or two. Are YOUR opinions still to be trusted any more than anyone elses?

-- Posted by Tattoos & Scars on Mon, Aug 31, 2009, at 10:24 PM

What I said about your misspelled word was not about the misspelling of Great Britain. What I was pointing out was the subtle irony of reading a statement declaring a country's health care system a miserable failure written by a person that can't spell that particular country's name properly.

I don't know what Nathan pays for health care but I do know COBRA cost that much or sometimes more (you know COBRA that insurance you are offered when you lose you job and have no income) Hard to pay that much drawing unemployment making $270 a week and making to much to be at poverty level for Medicaid or TnCare.

Nathan, you claim that my assertion that tax payer funded abortion is in this bill is a lie. Just exactly what do the terms any reproductive services a woman requests or a doctor deems a necessity mean to you? Those are simply nothing but code words for tax payer funded abortion. To believe otherwise is downright foolish. The people that run Planned Parenthood are literally salivating at the mouth in hopes of this passing. I believe you and I both recognize the need for some reform, but to pass this bill as it stands is just plain stupid. More than 75% of Americans are opposed to it. Do we still have a government of the people, by the people and for the people, or are these words meaningless to you? I can't wait to see the mass firings that will take place next November if the idiots in Washington don't stop and remember who they work for. Your position as a blogger with the TG does not extend to you the privilege of calling people liars simply because they disagree with your point of view.

The 9 trillion is the projected 10 yr cost. For me it would mean $12,000 annually for a family of four.

I suppose if you only looked at insurance costs base on your figure of 1200/month that may seem like a good deal.

However, the point is, it is not insurance cost we should be dealing with. It is health care costs.

The problem is the high cost of health care. I believe the majority of those cost are caused by lawyers and lawsuits.

The largest segment of lawyers exist inside government and insurance companies. Do you really trust these folks to fix a problem they created by spending more of our tax dollars through a system they control?

The Republican bill has been refused by the Democrats to even be read on the floor of the House or Senate. They don't want it getting out. I have been fortunate enough to read it.

A few of the things in it I remember are....

1. insurance companies will no longer be allowed to deny someone because of a pre-existing condition.

2. If you lose your job your employer has to keep you insured for up to one year at the same rate.

4. When a child is born a healthcare savings plan will be created for them and the Govt will make an initial $2,000 deposit into that account and another deposit when they graduate high school. By the time they are 65 they will have a large nest egg that can be used for healthcare needs that will come with age that will not strain the Govt.

Like I said earlier. The DEMOCRATS have lied and said the Republicans have not offered up ideas. They have, but the Democrats wont allow them to be mentioned in Washington.

My health plan is really good through my employer also and I pay about $110 a month for it . . . Nathan you are definitely getting robbed. LOL!

In regards to the abortion issue . . .

"House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) admitted Tuesday that there is dissension among House Democrats about whether the final health-care reform bill should include federal funding for abortions -- so much so, that the issue is still under discussion in the Democratic Caucus"

Also Obama said this during his campaign on July 17, 2007. . . .

"We're going to set up a public plan that all persons and all women can access if they don't have health insurance. It will be a plan that will provide all essential services, including reproductive services, as well as mental health services and disease management services; because part of our interest is to make sure that we're putting more money into preventive care."

Sounds like to me the Democrats want abortions funded in the final health care bill.

Jax, what percentage of your insurance does your employer pay?

Tattoos & Scars, I don't care what happens in Bedford County or Tennessee regarding taxes. I don't live there. I think that America should be able to survive on the 50% of my income that they already take. Any luck finding that line number that we were talking about?

Nathan,

Since you pointed out earlier that you were a former Marine, could you kindly post your MOS?

Nathan, it is obvious you are very uneducated and ignorant of how things work.

The Republican plan, if implemented would give every child a NEST EGG that would draw interest for 65years.... During that time,those that don't qualify for the already tons of FREE HEALTHCARE out there will be covered by private plans.

You have proven you cannot rationally debate and discuss anything.

I have VERY GOOD insurance. it is thru Blue Cross Bluie Shield and pays exactly what htye say it will pay in my plan synopsis.

I pay in $550/mo.My employer covers the rest. My deductible is $250. Pretty straightforward and easy to understand. My son had to have major kidney surgery..I paid $250 and not a penny more. His bills totaled over $180,000.

The scary part is, according to Obama's healthcare advisers he would not have been old enough to qualify for the tests and procedures they done on him.

Nocturnal Jeff . . . I have Blue Cross Blue Shield also and have no major complaint so far.

History proves that anytime we deregulate an industry, greed and corruption sneaks in and ruins the dream.

-- Posted by nathan.evans on Tue, Sep 1, 2009, at 5:10 PM

Care to cite some of that history?

Two recent examples that come to mind would be the Western U.S. Energy Crisis in 2000-2001 and the Credit Crisis of 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2...

I have listened to several MD's. No need to read a blog from one you had to find that suited your agenda.

Why do you keep changing the topic and not answering questions??

Nathan...what was your MOS in the Corps? Inquiring minds want to know.

What was I thinking? How dare I talk about CEO compensation of large insurance and medical corporations while we are talking about health care costs. 8-|

* United Health Group

CEO: William W McGuire

2005: 124.8 mil

5-year: 342 mil

* Forest Labs

CEO: Howard Solomon

2005: 92.1 mil

5-year: 295 mil

* Caremark Rx

CEO: Edwin M Crawford

2005: 77.9 mil

5-year: 93.6 mil

* Abbott Lab

CEO: Miles White

2005: 26.2 mil

5-year: 25.8 mil

* Aetna

CEO: John Rowe

2005: 22.1 mil

5-year:57.8 mil

* Amgen

CEO: Kevin Sharer

2005:5.7 mil

5-year:59.5 mil

* Bectin-Dickinson

CEO: Edwin Ludwig

2005: 10 mil

5-year:18 mil

* Boston Scientific

CEO:

2005:38.1 mil

5-year:45 mil

* Cardinal Health

CEO: James Tobin

2005:1.1 mil

5-year:33.5 mil

* Cigna

CEO: H. Edward Hanway

2005:13.3 mil

5-year:62.8 mil

* Genzyme

CEO: Henri Termeer

2005: 19 mil

5-year:60.7 mil

* Humana

CEO: Michael McAllister

2005:2.3 mil

5-year:12.9 mil

* Johnson & Johnson

CEO: William Weldon

2005:6.1 mil

5-year:19.7 mil

* Laboratory Corp America

CEO: Thomas MacMahon

2005:7.9 mil

5-year:41.8 mil

* Eli Lilly

CEO: Sidney Taurel

2005:7.2 mil

5-year:37.9 mil

* McKesson

CEO: John Hammergen

2005: 13.4 mil

5-year:31.2 mil

* Medtronic

CEO: Arthur Collins

2005: 4.7 mil

5-year:39 mil

* Merck Raymond Gilmartin

CEO:

2005: 37.8 mil

5-year:49.6 mil

* PacifiCare Health

CEO: Howard Phanstiel

2005: 3.4 mil

5-year: 8.5 mil

* Pfizer

CEO: Henry McKinnell

2005: 14 mil

5-year: 74 mil

* Well Choice

CEO: Michael Stocker

2005: 3.2 mil

5-year: 10.7 mil

* WellPoint

CEO: Larry Glasscock

2005: 23 mil

5-year: 46.8 mil

* Wyeth

CEO: Robert Essner

2005:6.5 mil

5-year: 28.9 mil

TOTAL 2005: 559.8 mil

TOTAL 5-Year: 14.9 billion

Oh yes sorry Tubesock. I was a 2800, but I was usually out doing other things. I was fortunate enough to spend a little over a year on the 2d FSSG Rifle Team which was an absolute blast.

Com bubba...gotcha.

Quiet Mike, you make a lot of claims and I am not trying to say you are wrong (really I'm not), but please cite some sources that can backup what you say. You can't make statements like, "There is no one alive today that has seen a truly unregulated American industry" without citing sources to back up your statements.

Then why don't you and several of your liberal pals start up your own non-profit insurance company? Then you could insure everyone and not make one dime of profit. Everyone is happy!

-- Posted by quietmike on Tue, Sep 1, 2009, at 7:17 PM

Hmmm... Maybe that is what Jesus would prefer. And to think, Conservatives feel they have the reigns in this whole religion debate.

Btw, where is Carl?

CEO: Howard Phanstiel at PacifiCare Health seems to be getting ripped off compared to everyone else.. if you can call 8.5M at year 5 a rip off.

Someone asked several posts up why a woman would choose to have a late term abortion. Most of the late term ones are done for fetal anomoly (mostly in the cases where the baby will die painfully shortly after death) or for health of the mother, such as pre-eclampsia. I honestly wouldn't have a problem with tax-payer funded abortions in either of these cases.

Also, reproductive services doesn't just include abortion. It also includes pap smears, pelvic exams, birth control, infertility treatments, prenatal exams, ultrasounds, prenatal testing, etc. If birth control was paid for more abundantly and taught in high schools instead of abstinence, maybe the number of abortions would decrease. I don't see how anyone could have a problem with that.

I will freely admit that I am a liberal. I'm proud of it and not ashamed of it in the least. I have friends and family members who are conservative, and I respect their rights to believe that way. However, I am so tired of conservative know-it-alls who feel the need to degrade liberals. We aren't stupid for believing the way we do. Most of us have, in fact, researched our positions and know why we feel the way we do. Most of us are educated. We didn't drink the Kool-Aid.

Frankly, I'm tired of hearing about how stupid I am for being a liberal, when truthfully, politics is nothing but a matter of opinion and you know what they say about them.

Liberal...Just a sanctified word for "Liar".

Liberals and research do not go hand in hand.

See, this is what I'm talking about. What if I called you uncaring and unfeeling and unsympathetic toward your feeling man? A lot of you come across that way, and I'm sure, away from these boards, that you really aren't. Why am I naive and a liar simply because I classify myself a liberal?

As for more government control, I don't see our government as a big evil empire trying to take over our lives. I've often said I don't mind paying more taxes for programs I support.

Most liberals claim they don't mind paying for programs they support, problem is, they want everyone else to also pay for the same programs, whether they support them or not.

-- Posted by quietmike on Thu, Sep 3, 2009, at 2:09 PM

quietmike -

Now that is getting at the core of it with accuracy.

I support conservative programs and ideas everyday thru my taxes that I do not agree with (IE: The Iraq War I have never been in favor of it but my taxes are sure going to support it.)

We all support things we do not agree with through our taxes. We even support things that do not affect us personally. You may not have children in school but you still pay taxes that support it...you may not drive but your taxes still pay for the roads... you may not be on Social Security but your taxes still pay for it.. You may never visit H.V. Griffin Park but your taxes still support it.... All these taxes are based on the pretense that someday you may need these things just like Medicaid, Medicare, TnCare or even the Health care Reform program.

Mike the war it's self may be temporary but the affects of the war have long lasting affects that your tax dollars continue to support. If you don't believe that walk inside any Veterans home or Veterans Hospital. Plus We are still paying about 24 Billion dollars in Foreign aid every year.

Can't wait for my free public healthcare. I will just stop eating to the point of malnutrition...then get me a fancy prescription to Ruby Tuesdays and The Outback, 3 times a day, 60 days, see doctor for renewal.

What else ya reckon we can get out of the public coffers? I could sure use a new computer, Uncle Sam!

Did Jesus require insurance, income reports, or judge social status before he healed anyone? Did he only feed those he felt worthy - pick and choose when he fed the multitudes? Did he say only care for those who earn enough money? Did he say don't bother with neighbors that whom you think your better than. Or how about the all that matters is what others do for you, not what you can do for them they don't matter??//

The republicans claim to be the christian Right but their actions are anything but...................Don't waste your time quoting old testament bits and pieces to try and justify your hate for any one you consider under you because it doesn't hold.

I would place a good guess that everyone here who is against the reform of heath care has insurance, and that most if it is subsidized in one way or another ( such as by an employer) . If in fact you were not covered and you actually knew what the reality of it is you would not be so willing to sacrifice your fellow man who does not have coverage. If you were in their shoes you would sing another song.

Yes they can go to the ER.... But come on who ends up paying the bill??? It is hundreds of times higher than a doctor, only serves to stabilize you and send you home with instructions to follow up with your primary doc. It ruins your credit when you can not pay the bill, and since common sense will tell you if you can't afford the doctor bill no way will you be able to afford the Hospital ER bill. My son was life flighted twice for heart failure, they stabilized him and sent him home each time until they could not stabilize him any more , then had to do emergency surgery, but when they sent him home no one would see him for follow up with out a 500.00 up front payment............... so where is the logic here? he has over $100,000 med bills, and no way to pay them on an 10hr job and family to care for. And forget Tenn care he's a white male - not a chance, he was told only Pregnant women were being accepted, and medicade or disability was turned down too..... No one will insure him even if he had the hundreds of extra dollars a month, they wanted more than he makes. hey that's reality you don;t want to see, your doing fine why be bothered.

Yea when your on your ivory tower of eliteness it is hard to see the real people you consider so far below your great entitled platform.....

Just because your job offers insurance, or you have a bigger pay check does not make you any more worthy than the man or woman who makes min. wage. You can come up with all sorts of ugly accusations about those who can't afford to buy insurance but truth of the matter is they are no different than you or I.

We all know when you reach the age of retirement you will have that hand out for your social security check and you have your Medicaid ( in case you don;t realize it to use your heath insurance after a certain age you have to first have medicade or they won;t cover you, they only cover the portion m left after Medicaid has paid.)

Don't look now but I think I see a crack in the bottom of the ivory tower your perched on, better get some duck tape and fix it fast, you don;t want to end up down here with the middle class people we may not be able to see how much better you are than us from that angle......................We may not notice the silver spoon in your kids mouth that makes him more worthy of health care when he's sick than our children are when they get sick.

Your self worth and egos are extremal over inflated, you are no better and deserve no more than any other person on this planet.

so you stand by the opinion that if a person isn't wealthy enough to pay for insurance they are unworthy of basic health care? That they are inferior and should just suffer? That if a child has parents that for any reason, inability or stupidity that that child is less deserving than any other child whose parent can and do have coverage? The truly poor have Tenn Care but the lower middle class ( in some case the difference is only a few dollars pr month income yet insurance is hundreds) and well the wealthy can afford it.

What about those kids?? because they were born in the wrong family they should suffer?????

This isn't liberal or right wing when it comes to kids, it's reality to them. You line up all the kids in a class room and tell us which ones you consider good enough to go to the doctor if they get sick ! ! ! ! !

This isn't about people getting elective surgery it's about people who do not get simple basic necessary treatment, the woman who can't have breast exam's, kids who can't be tested for strep throat, men who can not have prostrate exams , it's about diabetic who can't get proper medication and lose legs to neuropthy , it's about real people who need heath care.

I'm sorry if some guys loses his coverage for Viagra but I guess that a small price to pay for a kids to not have to end up with life long complications from an illness that could have prevented in the beginning.