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Friday, Aug. 1, 2014

More reaction, and a rebuttal

Posted Monday, December 31, 2007, at 10:41 AM

(Photo)
I was out of town for most of this past weekend, so when I returned late Sunday night, I was faced with a flood of comments and e-mails regarding the Somali series.

To say it has provoked a response would be a serious understatement. I've had a chance to review most of it and I thank many of you for your comments and support.

However, some of you should be truly ashamed of the things you posted. You know what I'm talking about. Obviously, we still have some bigoted idiots in this area and your comments only helps advance the stereotype that the south have tried to shake for decades now.

Also mixed in with the comments and criticism were several messages from refugee advocates and Somalis themselves [all from out of town, some in other countries] who want to help me "understand" our new neighbors. One of them said that the Somalis "are some of the friendliest, most inviting people I know."

Now they want to talk to us. This is months after the failed efforts of this paper and local officials to get members of the Shelbyville Somali community to sit down with us and communicate. We repeatedly offered the chance to get their story told to the public and we never got an answer. Not even a "no, thank you." Just silence.

Well, I will do a follow up with their input now that this issue is fully out in the open, but it will have to wait until next year.

;)

One series of comments I simply must take issue with is from "loblert," who apparently believes I possess the ability to induce mass psychosis upon an unsuspecting public.

It appears that Mr. Mosley has succeeded in whipping every biggot in town into a frenzy of hate and anger. Since he gave the location of their mosque and homes, if these are burned by his KKK disciples, it will be his doing and any resulting blood will be on his hands as sure as if he had done it himself. And all of this because he feels these people are impolite???

I do not feel these people are impolite, this is the overwhelming opinion of nearly every single person I have spoken to while working on this story, even from those who have gone out of their way to help these poor folks.

Indeed, when we published the first part of this series, which only focused on how they got here, the comments against the Somalis were already in full swing. And this was the part that some claimed "mollycoddled" the refugees. The only part I would consider "negative" was the final section dealing with their interactions with law enforcement and other communities. Others rushed to my defense, but loblert would have none of it.

What part of what I said was wrong? You admit to being racists. You admit to feeling hate and anger toward the Somalis. You thank Mosely for whipping you into a frenzy. You say something needs to be done about the Somalis. I think we agree on every point except that I think such hatred is un-Christian and immoral. I think Mr. Mosely is using you in hopes of producing a violent outcome without getting his own hands dirty.

Riiiiiight. I'm a sinister puppetmaster and manipulator styled after Joseph Goebbels. Loblert must see me as the old Fantastic Four villain Psycho-man, who would bedevil the heroes with his apparatus that induced Hate, Fear and Doubt. Now, you filthy, uneducated vermin, go! Go and do my bidding! Fly! Fly, my pretties!

PLEase....

To all who have posted: What is the worst experience that you have personally had with a Somali. Don't hold back. We know Mr. Mosely's hatred was cemented when had to endure overhearing some sassy comments at the DMV. Have you too been scarred by such horrible trauma at the hands of a Somali? Perhaps one cut you off in traffic? Do share.

"Hatred was cemented?" Excuse me, but what are you smoking? It must be high grade to cause this drastic leap in logic.

Well loblert, I have had experience with refugees before and it was a whole lot different that what locals have been encountering over the last few years in Shelbyville.

Back in the 1980's, my family hosted part of an Ethiopian clan for several weeks until our church could secure housing for them. They lived in my home, ate with us, etc.

I found them to be some of the most gracious, friendly and polite folks I have ever met. Many Americans could learn a lot from them. I'll never forget the joy in the eight year olds eyes as he ran around our property for the first time. The rolling hills, fields and woods of Tennessee must have seemed like paradise to him.

And these poor people had just arrived in our country from near stone age conditions. The first morning they were with us, I used the remote to switch on the TV and the father nearly jumped out of his chair. They had never even seen a television set.

But they adapted to America and modern life quickly. They weren't rude to their hosts, they were extremely grateful. They didn't insist on everyone else adapting to their culture or faith based requirements. They became Americans.

But that apparently isn't happening in this case in Shelbyville.

Loblert, I can not help how people might react to what I report. In fact a great deal of information that we published came from the very organizations that were placing these folks here and getting them set up in their new lives. Holly Johnson of Catholic Charities was invaluable in helping me understand a lot of these issues. All I did was explain to Bedford County these facts and the various controversies surrounding their introduction to Shelbyville and other towns across the country.

The hostile feelings posted on our website about the Somalis already existed throughout our community. They did not materialize out of thin air just because I wrote a series of news stories. I kept my feelings and opinions out of my reporting. To blame me for what others may think is ridiculous.


Comments
Showing comments in chronological order
[Show most recent comments first]

Yes, Brian is absolutely correct.

My opinion and feelings towards Muslims and Islam in general began on 911, when a close relative of mine LOST A CO-WORKER IN ONE OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTER BUILDINGS & WHEN MY MOTHER'S NEIGHBOR WAS KILLED AT THE PENTAGON!

So, what do the Muslims expect?!!!

-- Posted by puppydinks on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 10:57 AM

I don't hate them , but if they are going to stay they do need to adapt.

-- Posted by michaelbell on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 10:57 AM

Brian, from the rant I was seeing in Loblert's diatribe, there is no reasoning with him/her. Speaking of hate and frothing, Loblert seems to be doing a great job all on his or her own.

-- Posted by stevemills on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 11:09 AM

I would like to correct Brian on his use of PLEase...

It's Puuleeeaase...

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 11:48 AM

Mr. Mosely -

You are correct that your series has tapped into a vein of pre-existing hatred towards immigrants, blacks and Muslims - just as you hoped it would. In the Somalis, you have finally found the perfect target for your mean-spirited and pointless anger - a group that it appears nobody will defend, not even so-called Christians. I hope you can heal yourself before your hate consumes you fully. I actually mean that. I do wish you the best. You may now have the last word. The newspaper man always does! Over and out.

-- Posted by andy33 on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 11:50 AM

What a condescending load of trifle from loblert.

This is typical of people like this - "Blame the Messenger" i.e. the reporter, instead of focusing on the FACTS and ISSUES - crime committed by the Somali's and the assistance they're getting from the taxpayers.

-- Posted by puppydinks on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 12:22 PM

Loblert . .

I will take your challenge to explain why I dislike the Somalis that I have come into contact with. I use to live in Davis Estates apartment complex. When I moved into the apartment, it was a nice place that a diversity of people living there who respected each other and mostly got along. Then the last year and a half the Somalis started moving in which I had no problem with until they started causing problems. They would be rude to people, scream and yell all hours of the night and play music loud and when you would ask them to turn it down they would tell you to shut up and they didn't listen to Americans, they would hit peoples cars and not tell anyone, they actually threaten to some Hispanic tenants who eventually had to move out and then my neighbors who were originally from India who I was friends with decided to move because of the Somalis behavior and actions. Then we started having to put up with a horrible smell that started coming from their apartments that would then come into other people's apartments and they wouldn't do anything about it. Then they would place their garbage on their balcony and it would fall down on other people's balconies but yet they would stop. Then some were caught doing khat in the hallways and in the laundry closets. They would also get in fights in the parking lot and that would cause all types of chaos . . . and children would be living there and shouldn't be seeing that kind of stuff. In fact one night I caught two Somalis men running after this teenage girl . . .what part of that was right. My opinion of the Somalis were formed by them and their actions at the apartment complex where most of them live in Shelbyville and it eventually caused me to move because it was unsafe there and they had already put two dents in my brand new car and wouldn't do anything about it.

So Loblert, my opinion of them want based on any kind of hate for someone "different" . . it was based on the constant problems I had to deal with while living around these people and they didn't help their image whatsoever. They expected everyone else to do the compromising and we were suppose to just accept it . . . do you think that is fair? Many attempts were made to try and be nice to them and make them a part of the community and they refused. So, people get tired of bending over backwards for a group of people who don't seem to acknowledge or even appreciate it. They don't help their cause whatsoever so its hard to feel "sorry" for them and peoples frustration with them.

Anyway, the sheer fact that you group everyone that had a bad experience with the Somalis as bigots and racist just goes to show how much of a bigot you are because you judge people when you have no clue on what their personal experiences are with those individuals. Ignorance like yours is best kept with a closed mouth and an un-typed word.

Also, Brian Mosely did the best he could to show both sides of the issues. He went out of his way to get the Somali perspective and was denied many times and tried his best to see all sides of the issue and in fact his articles were very unbiased to say the least . . . his blog entry was his own personal opinion which is what a blog is for. What more can you ask of him? To compare him to some radical racist trying to flame the fires of some riot or KKK movement. That comment of yours was definitely a sign of your complete ignorance and inability to see what Brian was trying to accomplish and what the Somalis would help in doing.

BTW . . .do you even live around here Loblert because most of these negative comments about Brian's articles seem to be coming from sources outside of Bedford County and even the USA. How can you judge when you don't live here and see the situation first-hand?

-- Posted by jaxspike on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 12:54 PM

I stand by my statement posted above, loblert. I have my own opinions, but I do not let them guide my reporting.

To say that I spent the last month researching and interviewing people for this 8,000 word beast out of hate and anger is just plain silly.

-- Posted by Brian Mosely on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 1:06 PM

Loblert . .

I will take your challenge to explain why I dislike the Somalis that I have come into contact with. I use to live in Davis Estates apartment complex. When I moved into the apartment, it was a nice place that a diversity of people living there who respected each other and mostly got along. Then the last year and a half the Somalis started moving in which I had no problem with until they started causing problems. They would be rude to people, scream and yell all hours of the night and play music loud and when you would ask them to turn it down they would tell you to shut up and they didn't listen to Americans, they would hit peoples cars and not tell anyone, they actually threaten to some Hispanic tenants who eventually had to move out and then my neighbors who were originally from India who I was friends with decided to move because of the Somalis behavior and actions. Then we started having to put up with a horrible smell that started coming from their apartments that would then come into other people's apartments and they wouldn't do anything about it. Then they would place their garbage on their balcony and it would fall down on other people's balconies but yet they would stop. Then some were caught doing khat in the hallways and in the laundry closets. They would also get in fights in the parking lot and that would cause all types of chaos . . . and children would be living there and shouldn't be seeing that kind of stuff. In fact one night I caught two Somalis men running after this teenage girl . . .what part of that was right. My opinion of the Somalis were formed by them and their actions at the apartment complex where most of them live in Shelbyville and it eventually caused me to move because it was unsafe there and they had already put two dents in my brand new car and wouldn't do anything about it.

So Loblert, my opinion of them want based on any kind of hate for someone "different" . . it was based on the constant problems I had to deal with while living around these people and they didn't help their image whatsoever. They expected everyone else to do the compromising and we were suppose to just accept it . . . do you think that is fair? Many attempts were made to try and be nice to them and make them a part of the community and they refused. So, people get tired of bending over backwards for a group of people who don't seem to acknowledge or even appreciate it. They don't help their cause whatsoever so its hard to feel "sorry" for them and peoples frustration with them.

Anyway, the sheer fact that you group everyone that had a bad experience with the Somalis as bigots and racist just goes to show how much of a bigot you are because you judge people when you have no clue on what their personal experiences are with those individuals. Ignorance like yours is best kept with a closed mouth and an un-typed word.

Also, Brian Mosely did the best he could to show both sides of the issues. He went out of his way to get the Somali perspective and was denied many times and tried his best to see all sides of the issue and in fact his articles were very unbiased to say the least . . . his blog entry was his own personal opinion which is what a blog is for. What more can you ask of him? To compare him to some radical racist trying to flame the fires of some riot or KKK movement. That comment of yours was definitely a sign of your complete ignorance and inability to see what Brian was trying to accomplish and what the Somalis would help in doing.

BTW . . .do you even live around here Loblert because most of these negative comments about Brian's articles seem to be coming from sources outside of Bedford County and even the USA. How can you judge when you don't live here and see the situation first-hand?

-- Posted by jaxspike on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 1:06 PM

Excellent jaxspike! I wholeheartedly agree with you!

I wonder if loblert might even be the Somali woman who said that Americans make her sick?

Loblert- maybe you should identify yourself as to who you are, who you represent and what your motive/agenda is in this discussion?

Using terms such as "racists", "bigots" and the like is just a way to "whip up in a frenzy" the very people you support - i.e. the Somalians and Muslims.

Is it remotely possible that you may be trying to incite them to riot??

-- Posted by puppydinks on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 1:08 PM

For a while, I have been reading all your comments and I must admit that I am saddened from what I have read. I am disappointed that many in Shelbyville continue to display outright hatred and backwoods racism towards Somalia.

Have we not learned anything from our past or changed?

I have to ask though: Have you ever had to be relocated to a drastically new country, new culture, new belief system? Have you ever been involved in several civil wars that innocently took the lives of many of your relatives? Have you ever seen the country you lived in being overthrown by a different group each year? Have you ever been asked to leave your country because it was too dangerous to live? Have you ever been seriously afraid every time you went to the store for fear you would be mutilated or killed?

The point of all these questions is that we must first educate ourselves before we start passing blame, calling names or pointing the finger. Many of them have lived through horrible times, and we need to put ourseleves in their shoes, first.

They may not attend your so-called town meeting due to fear or unbelief in the government. Remember many Somalians left a nation they couldn't trust and it takes time to build up trust in government activities. They view their government as the one responsible for mutilating their innocent children, taking their money with no purpose and making them live in fear.

Understanding another culture can be extremely challenging, but it's far better to understand than to point the finger.

I suggest a continual reach-out session. They may need time to adjust, and this city should devote time to understanding and working together.

Finally, I wouldn't suggest understanding them is the same as understanding an Ethiopian. Even though they are neighbors, they have been involved in numerous government overthrowings, wars, and conflicts with Ethiopians. This could be considered an insult to many from Somalia.

-- Posted by dooshie69 on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 1:10 PM

Dear Shelbyville - Tennessee Residents,

- Are Somalis Breaking any State or Federal Laws? If this is the case, they should face and answer to the law.

- Are Somalis evading taxes? If this is the case then the IRS should do its job.

- Are Somalis being Somalis? This is their business.

- Do you have fears about these new people or have you heard rumours? Then you should not let your fear ruin innocent lives.

I think this whole issue of community trail by media has the hallmarks of first, prejudice against innocent people who trying to better their lives, secondly its publicist article (Ask your self how many internet hits this article has attracted so far or how many copies of this gazettes were sold for this week compared to previous weeks).

1. This is a pure racially motivated deformation of character against Somalis in Shelbyville based on hearsay and prejudiced assumptions.

2. The Local Police Institutions should teach their staff thing or two about race equality and race relations.

3. This gazette should promote ways forward for community cohesion unless they are profiting from this farce (such words like - > Somalis are illegal, or they demand by force, or whatever senseless words some of you are repeating in here and so on).

This is very simple let law enforcement institutions deal with all matters of crime, let other established institutions deal with all matters of entitlement and stop lashing at whole ethnic group/race.

I would like to conclude another Somali saying: "Say with intent but say with honesty"

Baaxir Axmed,

Leicestershire

England, United Kingdom

-- Posted by Baaxir on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 1:13 PM

dooshie69 - No one forced them to come here, they came of their own free will.

They are getting assistance from the Federal, State and Local Governments (taxpayers) and also many organizations such as Catholic Charities (donations from U.S. citizens) so what exactly is your point?

As I told loblert, when using terms such as "racism", "bigot" "hatred" etc., it sounds as if you are intending to anger and incite the very people you support.

Also, if they experienced horrors in Somalia, that is NOT our fault, nor is it our responsibility to "correct" the situation over there - we, the citizens of the U.S. have no control of this!

Now when I start to see a real effort for the Somali's to "reach out" and STOP saying things like "Americans make me sick" then maybe we can all reach an understanding of sorts.

The good people of Bedford County and Tennessee are no different than people from other parts of the U.S. - they want to help and understand (the U.S. is THE MOST GIVING NATION ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH), but when they're "disrespected" by those they're trying to help and understand, many just throw up their hands and say "why bother".

SO before you criticize any of us, look at your own FIRST!

-- Posted by puppydinks on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 1:27 PM

As Reagan would say: " There you go again"!

Hey Baaxir, it doesn't matter one bit what their race is or where they come from - I just want them to OBEY THE RULE OF LAW and BE RESPECTFUL OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND THE PEOPLE OF BEDFORD COUNTY AND SHELBYVILLE!

It's high time you stop your rantings about RACE and get a grip of yourself and of the situation at hand and look at the FACTS!

Mosely has reported the FACTS - now if you can't handle the FACTS, then buddy, you've got a serious problem...

-- Posted by puppydinks on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 1:36 PM

I might as well chime in with my opinions since everyone else has. I've had very little exposure to the Somali refugees except in Wal-Mart and they tend to keep to themselves there. I haven't had any negative run-ins with them there, so I'm pretty much apathetic about them being here. I do not, however, agree that WE must educate ourselves first to their culture. That statement is as ignorant as the sailors, when I was in the Navy, that would pull into a foreign port and complain about the obnoxious foreigners simply because they wouldn't speak English. We were the obnoxious foreigners there and the Somalis are the foreigners here. Therefore, they should put forth a modicum of effort to learn some of our culture. Maybe once this is done, local people will be more willing to work with them in understanding each other.

-- Posted by Thom on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 1:36 PM

AMEN Thom!!

-- Posted by puppydinks on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 1:38 PM

I just deleted a comment containing a well-known Internet acronym which, if it were spelled out, would be offensive. With story comments, I could have simply edited out the offending word and put something in its place to show that I'd made an edit, but our web site won't let me do that on blog comments; it's all or nothing.

Please don't use such acronyms if the spelled-out phrase would not be permissible. (It's probably a good idea not to use them at all, because we get some people in the blog forums who obviously aren't blogging veterans and wouldn't know what they meant anyway.)

-- Posted by Jicarney on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 2:03 PM

Dear Shelbyville - Tennessee Residents,

Facts 1: It is clear that the author of this article did not research the facts; this is clear from his referencing style.

Facts 2: I also suspect Evilmonkey, puppydinks, jaxspike and the Author are the same person. Because, if you look closely the rhythm in their writing are somewhat identical and if you look clearly the timing of their answers/posts complements each other. Shelbyville residents are on the clear on this "racially motivated character defamation against Somalis in Shelbyville".

Facts 3: The author is desperate to establish prosperous journalism career in this way. It is a shame.

Facts 4: I wasted my valuable time and knowledge to educate persons who initiated this hate sequence in the first place. Pity on me.

I would like to conclude with no valuable Somali saying! Cheers.

Baaxir Axmed,

Leicestershire

England, United Kingdom

s.

-- Posted by Baaxir on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 2:14 PM

when in rome, act as romans

-- Posted by Bill H on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 2:14 PM

:You're wrong Baaxir, we are NOT the same person.

But thanks for including me in with jaxspike, Evil Monkey and the author!

I'm in good company!

-- Posted by puppydinks on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 2:18 PM

LOL funny, but we are from America, maybe that's the reason we think alike.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 2:43 PM

Baaxir,

All you are teaching is a bunch of nonsense to achieve your own agenda, since you arent paying taxes here, or losing your land, your job, your town or your country then you really have no basis on your educational background.

As we have said many times, You do not live in this country therefore you have no rights, no judgment calls, nor do you have any holdings here that can make us take you serious.

You are not here to see any of the issues that are effecting us here. So your insight is moot.

If you could please copy and paste ANYTHING I said that was racial, or religious against the Somalians, or Muslims I will kiss the next somalian man on the lips.

And do you know the difference between Facts and Opinion? because I know your "Facts" are so wrong.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 2:50 PM

I laugh at this . . I am not like Evil Monkey or Puppydinks because some of their vewpoints are extreme compared to mine but we somewhat agree on the current issue at hand.

But really, unless you are from Bedford County and know the situation first hand then your input is really not needed and considering the issues England has had with terrorists and their crackdown on Muslims, maybe you should focus more on your problems there than in some small town in Tennessee. I do not hate anyone based on religion . . . I try not to hate period. I do however dislike people who show a lack of respect for me but yet demand that I show respect to them for no reason. That is uncivilized in my opinion.

-- Posted by jaxspike on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 3:03 PM

Baaxir,

Here you got, here is your injustice.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/a...

Oh and notice the Somalian did nothing wrong :rolls eyes:

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 3:25 PM

Baaxir,

Since you like FACTS: I can see how Somalians are so well accepted by everyone. Here is another link: http://pubphilosopher.blogs.com/pub_phil...

these are YOUR neighbors.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 3:32 PM

BTW Jaxspike,

None of my viewpoints have been extreme by anyone's regards.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 4:09 PM

Thanks again for all the support. It really means a lot. Now if you'll excuse me, I have more orders to send to my witless minions as part of my latest nefarious plot of world domination, and the Latverian Embassy is on line 2.

Have a great new year!

-- Posted by Brian Mosely on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 4:19 PM

Sad! Some of the opinions expressed here sound so racist, and I don't know if that is the intention of many of the authors. It is hard to understand many of your harsh feelings towards Somalians. Sadly, many of you sound like your ancestors from the 1800's.

We must all (even our neighbors) work together but it really seems like it's your way or the highway. There should be a fine line to walk for both groups, but we should be more understanding and considerate. The path to working together starts with more than just a town meeting and accusations. The path starts with us working with them because it is our country. Yes, they chose to come to the community, which according to many blog postings I don't know why; especially, the way they have not been welcome with open arms.

And the mention that education is ignorant is hilarious. How is understanding a culture or group of people ever ignorant? I am no saying you adapt their ways. Education and adaptation are two totally different things.

-- Posted by dooshie69 on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 4:57 PM

--Posted by dooshie69 (should that name even be allowed in a public forum such as this?): "The point of all these questions is that we must first educate ourselves before we start passing blame, calling names or pointing the finger. Many of them have lived through horrible times, and we need to put ourselves in their shoes, first."

First of all, we are not the aliens to this region; therefore we are not the ones that need to assimilate. I understand what it's like to be in a country that doesn't know anything about you, trust me. When I was faced with the hardship of not knowing much about the environment that I was in, I went out of my way to learn as much as I could about the local customs and traditions. This is what most reasonable people, regardless of their nationality, religion, or ethnicity, would do. Most of the locals in Germany speak English fluently. Most of them will also expect you to at least attempt speak German before letting you know that they can communicate with you in your native tongue. What I was saying, not that I feel the need to explain myself to you but to the other readers, is that you should try to learn something of your hosts rather than expecting them to cater to your every whim.

-- Posted by Thom on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 5:47 PM

Brian,

Since your throwing some anecote around, I believe what Baaxir wants is a Genosia.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 6:45 PM

Heh...;)

-- Posted by Brian Mosely on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 7:36 PM

After reading all of the articles that Bryan wrote,very well, I might add, I think that one of the concerns about the Somalians can also be the same concerns that I have about the illegals. The population makeup of Bedford Co is changing so rapidly that the customs and scenery are in danger of being changed forever. When you think that shelbyville is 25% hispanic and you find out that there are somewhere between 400-1100 Somalians here also and neither group seems to practice birth control,how are we the people of Shelbyville supposed to pay for more schools, services, etc for these people. Hopefully, the new law regarding employers hiring illegals will help. But since the somalians are here legally,maybe some gratitude from them would go a long way in their acceptance.

If Sunni Muslims are going to live in Shelbyville, they should know that our attitudes of Muslims in general are what we have seen on the news.maybe they should go out of their way to prove us wrong!!!!

-- Posted by Patsy on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 8:23 PM

It's interesting to see what is happening in Springfield TN and the massive exodus of illegals and hispanics leaving after the crackdown at Electrolux and their hiring practices.

-- Posted by jaxspike on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 8:57 PM

I don't think any of our right-mindeed people are looking down on anyone due to race,religion or nationality.

I do suspect a lot of ingrained fears and long-held resentments are coming forth when a few fools act out and make all the people remotely like them look bad.

Who notices the polite,sane and sensible folk when there are self-centered brats around?

These,like the good people,exist everywhere and among every culture.

The people who misbehave are willing to use whatever circumstances are handy to be rude and stupid.

But,if they weren't justifying themselves with a culture clash,they'd invent something else rather than act appropriately or admit when they are in the wrong.

I pray that people realize that such folk are not typical of their groups.

They just wish they were important enough to define their culture.

Brian,I think loblert has jumped to an unfortunate and erroneous conclusion.

(J. Jonah Jerkface,you're not.)

There are media personnel just cynical enough to stir up trouble to gain fame and fortune.

But,I don't think that's happening here.

Nor do we have Mephisto or Eclipso trying to pit the good guys against one another.

Don't expect Franklin Richards or the Scarlet Witch to erase all our problems with wishcraft.

No magician in fishnet hose is going to remodel diseased minds to make them behave.

Our arsonists aren't going to be turned into candles by a spirit of Divine Retribution.

That sort of solution may be fine for comic books but we have much more finite abilities.

We don't have as easy a time separating the heroes from the evil-doers.

I don't know many people here as bright as Reed Richards or as good at imposing peace as Wonder Woman.

If we're going to save the day,we're going to have to be more like Spider-Man's Uncle Ben or Clark Kent's Ma.

We're going to have to use horse sense and just try to be kind to one another.

That may not seem as flashy as what the folks in tights and capes do but look at what wisdom and love can accomplish.

What stronger super-powers could we have?

-- Posted by quantumcat on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 10:35 PM

Would be nice to read minds though. Prof X or maybe mess them up like Vertigo.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Dec 31, 2007, at 11:08 PM

With our luck,we'd get Onslaught taking over the world or we'd all be so dizzy the drug dealers would give up khat for Dramamine.

-- Posted by quantumcat on Tue, Jan 1, 2008, at 12:38 AM

The column Brian Mosely wrote to summarize his series was posted on Lucianne and is getting widely read here:

http://lucianne.com/threads2.asp?artnum=...

I'm told this site only keeps posts up for a few days, so check it out now.

-- Posted by Ann Corcoran on Tue, Jan 1, 2008, at 6:08 AM

Here's something you may be interested in--

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscale...

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscale...

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0...

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0...

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0...

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0...

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.

http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/2...

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are

caused by the illegal aliens.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0...

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0...

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border. Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. The National Policy Institute, "estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period." http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/p...

13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States ".

http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

The total cost is a whooping

$ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR

-- Posted by puppydinks on Tue, Jan 1, 2008, at 4:53 PM

wow!puppydinks, I am impressed. You do get the problem.That's what is so frustrating to most people that I talk to in Shelbyville. No words are written quoting our city elected officials except for a picture of Mayor Ray with the "Welcome Tennessee" group. The sheriff's dept has asked for more funds to be able to detain law breaking illegals.What happened with that??

I did hear on the news today that there has been an onslaught of applications for Mexican birth certificates for children that were born in the USA?

I just want to know that my grandchildren will be safe from the Somalian and Mexican mafias when they go to school and live in Shelbyville.I know that enforcing the immigration laws in Arizona and Oklahoma have made a difference. If the Somalians want to reside in Shelbyville then they should realize the type of people that most of us are. I don't recall seeing mass demonstrations or rioting in Shelbyville in my lifetime. We have always been a pretty peaceful people.

-- Posted by Patsy on Tue, Jan 1, 2008, at 8:01 PM

Loblert knows nothing about Islam or muslims. That would require time, study and careful analysis. I may be wrong but if so, maybe Loblert can tell us of the recent books about Islam he has read and what version of the Koran he has, and the meaning of taguiyya, kitman, and da'wa.

It is easy to be a liberal Loblert and to tell others how hateful they are. It makes him feel so morally superior.

Loblert doesn't even get the message of Mosely's articles and many of the comments from the series.

These Somali muslims are not the type of immigrants that came to this country for the past 200 years and still shape it today. My ancestors had a great deal of prejudice to overcome when they arrived in the U.S. But they adapted and asssimilated, and their children (my grandparents) had an easier time of it. I'll bet there are many readers who can say the same of their ancestors. But these immigrants are muslim and that makes a world of difference. Do you think you would have these same problems if these Somalians were Christians or Bhuddists?

To know why muslims cannot and will not assimilate requires that you know something about Islam. Islam is not just a religion, it is also political system of governance. Islam and democracy are incompatible systems.

Mosely shared his experience with Ethiopian immigrants years ago. He doesn't say whether they were muslim but I'll bet my tax refund against anyone else's that they were not muslim.

Muslims can't assimilate becuase their religion prevents it. Islam is the only religion that teaches believers to have NO contact with non-believers and to NOT make friends with them. Islam also teaches that it OK to lie to non-believers. Can you imagine? A RELIGION that teaches it is OK to lie?

It is a mistake to bring them to the U.S. Shelbyville can't return the ones that are already there. But you watch, they'll start bringing over other families members soon, legally and illegally. Maybe you can do something about preventing that.

-- Posted by USorThem on Tue, Jan 1, 2008, at 11:58 PM

Actually if you read about the history of Where Loblert lives, it's a city in absolute disarray and in total shambles and in desperate need of funds.

Here is the summary, 90% of their population lived in Holland, when it got to the points= where jobs, money and welfare ran out, the government passed laws and got super strict. Somalians got mad, killed a local leader and got the hell out of there out of fear. Since the EU is open to travel anywhere without passports they settled in Leistershire, greeted with open arms. Now people are regretting it.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:21 AM

BTW . . . a bill, which passed unanimously in the Tennessee House of Representatives and received all but one vote in the Senate, prohibits anyone from knowingly employing an illegal alien, recruiting an illegal alien or referring an illegal alien for employment for a fee. State Senator Douglas Henry, Democrat from Nashville and an attorney, was the only dissenting vote.

The penalty for hiring an illegal alien will result in an administrative procedure that requires any state or local governmental agency, officer, employee or entity who has reason to believe a violation has occurred to file a complaint with Tennessee Department of Labor and Workforce Development. When the commissioner receives the complaint, a contested case hearing will be conducted.

If it is determined a violation has been committed, the commissioner is required to order that the license be revoked, suspended or denied. For the first violation, the commissioner must order the violator's license be suspended until there is proof all employees are lawful resident aliens. A second violation within fives years from the first one will result in a one-year suspension. For a third or subsequent violation within five years of the first order, the commissioner must order a permanent revocation of the violator's license and a permanent bar on the person doing business in the state of Tennessee.

So, what does this mean for Tysons and many of the local companies who hire illegal aliens. I guess we will find out . . . Tysons will probably just bring in more Somalis.

-- Posted by jaxspike on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 7:40 AM

Well, today's the day that new law takes effect, so we'll see. Unfortunately they would have to prove that Tyson knew the people were illegal when they hired them.

-- Posted by Thom on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:49 AM

Yep- you're right about that Thom. Proof is the fly in the ointment so to speak.

-- Posted by puppydinks on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:03 AM

I don't know much about my genealogy, but I'm pretty sure that 2,000 years ago, my ancestors were seen as "outsiders" by the religious people of the day.

They didn't worship correctly, they ate the wrong foods and they didn't follow the customs of God's chosen people. (And these were customs established by God Himself for people He really chose -- not cultural norms of a nation that merely thinks it's chosen by God.)

I'm thankful that God didn't forever banish my ancestors as heathens. He sent His son, who called the religious leaders hypocrites and talked lovingly with a woman in Samaria, a region that true patriots would go out of their way to avoid. He told us that it's easy to love our friends -- we are to love even our enemies. While nailed to a cross, dying for everyone's sins, He asked God to forgive even the hypocrites who put Him there. And after He was resurrected, He changed the heart of a terrorist named Saul, then sent him into other cultures to reach out to heathens like my ancestors.

But I'm not just thankful for God's mercy and compassion in the past -- I'm concerned about His judgment in the future. Jesus said that I would be judged in the way that I judge others. I don't want Him to say to me, "Whatever you DIDN'T do for those who were in prison, or in refugee camps, you DIDN'T do for Me". I don't want Him to tell me that I've placed my nation on a higher throne than my King.

-- Posted by Matthew22:40 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:26 AM

matthew 22:40, well thats beautiful, problem is? Jesus ain't here.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:41 AM

2,000 years is a loooooong time ago - Matt, you say you don't much about your geneology, so how would you have any idea what your ancestors experienced or thought?

--ANY ONE OF US could do what you're trying to do....

-- Posted by puppydinks on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:58 AM

Matthew22:40,

And I, much like Jesus, forgive them for not knowing about this country. I simply ask that they do a little research about ME and the people that live here as it appears they are what the bible classified as heathens. Do I pray for them? Well, no but I guess I could. Point is, we don't really care where you're from or what you've been through. You are in America now and we have rules and standards that apply to EVERYONE here.

Now, on the flip side....do they forgive me for not being Muslim? No. Do they look past my skin and my nationality to research into my past and find out how rough I've had it? No.

So, while I understand the point you are trying to make you should understand that many of us have had this same conversation internally. I did not move to a Muslim nation and insist they cook me bacon!

-- Posted by LauraSFT on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:21 AM

Let's all have a party and invite the Somali's to a "social" with some good ol' pork BBQ, pole beans cooked in fatback, corn on the cob, cornbread and pecan pie with real whipped cream!

Now that's what I'm talkin about!!! My grandparents, great grandparents, and great great grandparents lived on this kind of food all their lives and lived to well into their 80's!!

-- Posted by puppydinks on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:32 AM

Let's try proving that anyone can follow our friend's example.

If the King of Kings isn't here,let's invite Him.

We can hope He won't be hurt by folks who don't want "Hey-soos" moving in or someone born in the Middle East working alongside them.

I might worry about my Lord hanging out here.

He would definitely want us to conform our ways to His.

Free will or no,He'd cringe at how many ways we've devised for being stupid.

I fear His needs might be ignored by His sponsors and some of the people around here might be very hostile-until they got to know Him.

He wouldn't be satisfied being set aside to live in one building and maybe get a visit once a week or twice a year.

He'd expect to live with us fulltime.

That might not be too bad.

He can be a lot of fun and He's not afraid of hard work.

He'd be all too willing to share His wealth with our community.

So,yes,Let's invite Him here if He isn't a resident already.

He's not pushy or hard to get along with.

Once we see how good a neighbor He could be,we wouldn't mind if His Father and whole family were around,too.

Just one thing,how do we know He's not here right now?

Maybe He's here incognito?

Maybe He's been hidden under a bushel or something.

Perhaps, we should treat everyone-even our own kin-as if they were Jesus.

Just in case.

-- Posted by quantumcat on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:47 AM

puppydinks, I know that I'm not predominantly Jewish, and therefore my ancestors were bound to be considered heathens by those who were. Any one of us *could* do what I'm trying to do (try to see this from God's perspective), and I really wish we all would at least give it a shot.

Evil Monkey, I'm sorry you feel that Jesus isn't here. I happen to believe that He lives in those who claim to follow Him, and we're to look to Him as our example.

LauraSFT, you're cutting to the real issue, which is where I pray this conversation can stay. Integrating people into our culture can be difficult and painful for us and them, and I'm certainly not excusing the behavior of those in question.

But I see two problems here:

1) It's easy for us to experience the rudeness of a few and attribute that to all of "them" (dangerous word). There are some pretty rude and obnoxious Americans and even "Christians" in our society, too. But I'd rather not be lumped in with them. I'd say there are quite a few Somalis in the same shoes.

2) This conversation quickly devolves into issues of religion. If we really consider this to be a Christian nation, we need to consider what that means in terms of how we engage those from other cultures. I think that means going beyond what's easy to tackle difficult issues in a spirit of love and respect for EVERYONE involved, even if we feel they've wronged or insulted us in some way.

BOTH sides need to find ways to bridge this gap and help the Somalis understand our culture. As a nation founded by people fleeing persecution, maybe we should be big enough to go the extra mile.

-- Posted by Matthew22:40 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 12:11 PM

Well, when I see him here leading us, then I will follow, but blindly being screwed is a tad stupid and downright idiotic.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 12:13 PM

Matt - what you are saying "sounds" good, but I'm a realist.

When I see the DISRESPECT for OUR culture and society by people who should be THANKING us, rather than ridiculing us, I have no choice but to form a negative opinion.

Furthermore, as I've said repeatedly, not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim.

When I see our men and women in Uniform being spat upon by the very people we're trying to "liberate" it reinforces my belief that they are selfish, ungrateful and violent people.

When I see INNOCENT JOURNALISTS BEHEADED IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, I want to vomit on their ALLAH!

When I see over 3,000 INNOCENT people on 911 MURDERED in the name of Allah and Islam I want nothing more than to see THEM destroyed!

And when I hear what a beautiful & peaceful culture Islam is, I don't believe any of it ---

That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it!

-- Posted by puppydinks on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 12:46 PM

No, it doesn't have anything to do with religion, it has to do with MONEY. I am sick of always helping everyone else but ourselves. Look at Katrina, now look at the Tsunami victims, then Iraq, look at all the support they got, look how fast their stuff was rebuilt. Now back to Katrina... how much is STILL destroyed? over 85%. Pretty freaking sad.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 12:47 PM

No, it doesn't have anything to do with religion, it has to do with MONEY. I am sick of always helping everyone else but ourselves. Look at Katrina, now look at the Tsunami victims, then Iraq, look at all the support they got, look how fast their stuff was rebuilt. Now back to Katrina... how much is STILL destroyed? over 85%. Pretty freaking sad.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 12:47 PM

Is it conceivable that a journalist, a so-called master of the pen, would write this:

"I do not feel these people are impolite, this is the overwhelming opinion of nearly every single person I have spoken to while working on this story, even from those who have gone out of their way to help these poor folks."

From the outset and repeatedly in many of the articles in the series, you make sweeping generalizations about "practically everyone" doing "everything" they can to help Somali newcomers while being rewarded with bad treatment. It is of sound practice to note the number of people you've spoken with and at least quote them directly.

Would you also be so kind as to point out who "these folks" are that you refer to in your 12/29/2007 piece titled "Somalians respond poorly to local hospitality"? Or perhaps you can name the members of the community who are "expected to keep their mouths shut?" Has it escaped your journalistic acumen to actually interview these community members and ask them how they have been silenced?

No matter what the grievances of Shelbyville citizens maybe, it is your duty as a journalist to ask the difficult questions and explore these grievances while speaking to the 'other side'. Your article spews racist attitudes about the "ways of hygiene, mannerisms, culture and the treatment of women" that Somalis in Shelbyville allegedly possess without explaining how they impact local residents.

Then you wrote this:

"There are also the stories that come from other communities that have many locals nervous. For example, in October of last year, Said Biyad, a Bantu refugee from Somalia, killed his four children in Louisville, Ky., and attacked his estranged wife with a blunt object, turning himself into police afterward. He slashed the throats of the children, aged 2 to 8, because his wife "disrespected" him, he said.

A difference in culture, no doubt."

Did you know that on December 24, 2007, in a small town outside of Seattle, Judy Anderson and her boyfriend Joseph McEnroe killed her parents, her brother and his wife, and her niece and nephew, aged 6 and 3. The motive? Judy Anderson's brother owed her some money. It would be only logical to draw conclusions about the nature of American communities based on this tragedy. Or at least about as logical as the manipulative mention of a horrifying tragedy that shook the Somali community in Louisville and around the nation.

Imagine murdering your family on CHRISTMAS EVE, and over money at that. A difference in culture, indeed.

In the case it has escaped your journalistic research skills and commitment to accuracy, nearly 43% of people murdered by a family member or an intimate partner were women (Federal Bureau of Investigation: Crime in the United States, 2004). You can appreciate the fact that most are neither Muslim nor Sunni, and most have used a bathtub and a telephone. It is quite clear that you are using a single, rare incident to support a biased stance against these Somalis.

I urge you then, as a journalist, either support your claims with evidence or provide an immediate apology to the Somalis of Shelbyville. Basic principles of journalism, not to mention integrity and professionalism, demand that you support your claims about an entire community. The sentiment behind your unsubstantiated claims is one of bigotry and incitement of hatred.

You and your paper have lost your credibility as journalists. What you have put in this and other articles in the series are nothing more than an incitement of a racist and xenophobic campaign against these new Americans.

Shame on you.

-- Posted by MikeSC on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:18 PM

Maybe we need to look at where scenarios similar to this are done right.

For years,hotels,universities,cruise ships,etc. have blended a variety of cultures.

Usually,each person gets instruction on the other cultures plus "how we do things around here."

When a mistake occurs,it's handled promptly with discretion.

A word to the wise is given and if the next problem seems due to discourtesy then the individual to blame (not the victim or a culture) is held accountable.

That's how international businesses stay alive.

Maybe there should be a concerted effort to bring newcomers aboard with common projects and goals.

Let's look at how we are alike more than how we differ.

If our immigrants don't dislike us,could they tell us more about who they are and how they live?

Could they be our teachers and share their history,their crafts and their stories?

It's much easier to hate and fear a stranger.

It's hard to despise someone if you'ved formed a bond building a playground or planting a garden.

(I'll make y'all a deal.

I won't judge your group by bad Westerns and "Black Hawk Down" if you won't judge my bunch by "Deliverance" and "The Hills have Eyes.")

This should go beyond immigrant and native born or one race or religion versus another.

We have too great a tendency to put ourselves into little boxes and think that those unlike ourselves are too different to really socialize with.

Maybe the age,gender,ethnic and financial differences don't have to be barriers.

The categories I belong to are part of who I am-but not all of who I am.

Let's try to know individuals as well as groups.

Let's group ourselves in a number of different ways.

It should be much easier to make our community stronger and more pleasant if it is seen as one home with a lot of very different family members.

The people in a family may squabble but because they belong to and with one another,they can set aside their differences long enough to solve common problems and enjoy common pleasures.

If the person next to us is a friend rather than a threat,a tool or a victim,then all of us-even the strangers-can have a home to be proud of.

-- Posted by quantumcat on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:20 PM

Good Lord - Here they go again with the talk of "bigotry" "racism" "hatred" "xenophobia" etc., etc., etc.

Didn't Muslims carry out 911?

Don't Muslims MURDER in the name of ALLAH?

Don't Muslims treat women as SECOND CLASS citizens?

Don't Muslims shake their fists and shout "Death to America"?

Don't Muslims shout "Death to the Infidels" i.e. Christians and Jews?

Aren't almost all the suicide/homicide bombers Muslim?

Until I see THIS behavior stop, I will always be very suspicious of Muslims and Islam and I'll never lose sight of what their real agenda is - to destroy the U.S. and Capitalism, and to "convert" all of us to Islam.

-- Posted by puppydinks on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:40 PM

Again,look at individuals-not groups.

Look at their lives.

If they have inherent flaws,what efforts were made to encourage or curb them?

I suspect that some of the folk who turn up their noses at "those people" would be the first to protest if negative stereotypes were applied to them.

I'd bet some of the critics would object to breed specific regulation.

If all Walkers aren't sored and not all Pit Bulls or Chihuahuas are vicious then not all people of a certain area are mean,dirty and backward and not all people of certain races are criminal.

Some people and animals are going to be dangerous.

Some are going to cause harm no matter how they are trained or how much love they are given.

Some are going to be wonderful even if spawned and reared in Hell.

We must be cautious around everyone but make our default attitude one of love and acceptance.

We'll treat even those who harm with compassion and dignity because of who WE are.

We won't assume everyone we deal with is a hidden monster.

We won't let anyone make us into monsters,either.

-- Posted by quantumcat on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 1:44 PM

And we'll try not to make ourselves into monsters.

(Very well said, quantumcat)

-- Posted by Matthew22:40 on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:31 PM

No offense quantumcat, but I don't even take the time to read your posts anymore. Your spacing (although it may not be through any fault of your own) bothers me, and alot of other people on here. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

-- Posted by LauraSFT on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 3:37 PM

Ditto, Laura!

-- Posted by puppydinks on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 4:20 PM

quantumcat,

Your age is not caught up with the times, we no longer living in the 70s or 80s. Money is scarce, and so is the middle class. By the way you speak, you must be dying soon because these words you speak are of a dying man or woman. Or, you are just out of touch with reality.

Basically I want the problem gone.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 7:14 PM

Matthew22:40- Thank you for saying it!!!! Jesus if here contrary to what some might think.

{Do I pray for them? Well, no but I guess I could. Point is, we don't really care where you're from or what you've been through. You are in America now and we have rules and standards that apply to EVERYONE here.

Posted by LauraSFT }

Maybe that is the problem "we don't care". Ever stop to think what would happen if we did? No one is saying you have to learn everything about them just a little and I know that at least some (I can't say all because I do not know them all) are trying to learn more about us and how to fit in here. Yes they should abide by rules and standards that apply to EVERYONE here. We did not know them all in a few short months or a year it took most of us until out teenage years so just give them time.

-- Posted by Shelbyville my home on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 8:17 PM

Brian Mosely has written some fine articles and deserves the title of Journalist. The Times-Gazette should be proud to be the voice of Shelbyville. He is being attacked in a most loathsome manner that I find obnoxious and rude but this doesn't change the Truth of his series.

Islam is a religious, cultural (tribal), and political system that sees itself as a nation without borders. This was told to me by a Muslim brother who refused to pray with Christians in the their church where he was evangelizing for Islam. I did some reading and listening and found out, by golly, he's right. In Islam there is no Golden Rule.

About the Somalis. They make bad neigbors. The Somalis are the footsoldiers for the Ummah or the nation of Islam and are great jihadis. Jihad means struggle and this is what you all are experiencing. A struggle that turns into conflict on all public fronts. It is a struggle(jihad) to see who will control the town. The Somalis are devout Muslims and pride themselves on their practice of Islamic doctrine and law.

Now I don't care if the Somalis show their backsides to each other in prayer(as long as it doesn't interfere with business), fast then gorge for a month, keep their women covered and practice female genital mutilation but what I do care about is their politics, how they see the rest of us, the kafir, as less than human, and I really care about how they treat us. Do they cheat us the taxpayers with Community Center scams like the one in Nashville? Do they rape our women like the recently apprehended Somali serial rapist in Nashville? Are they violent? Do they bring in illegal drugs like khat?

The Koran and the Constitution cannot co-exist. They are in absolute conflict. That is the trouble. The Somalis, as do other Muslims, think our laws are inferior and man-made so they don't have to follow them. They think their sharia law is from a god who says it is the only law for all people on this earth for all times. This is a theocratic government that doesn't accept me as a full fledged member of its nation and says I must submit to its ways. This is politics cloaked in religion.

Sounds like you all better muster up down there. Volunteers, get together for beer and barbeque, coffee and cake, and talk serious. Speak out and organize to put pressure on the city and county officials to keep things in line or the gangs will take over. We must take a stand for law and order, for our freedom, or we'll lose it.

-- Posted by Thatcher Ward on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:12 PM

Thatcher Ward,

Excellent post & advice! So who among us thinks they could be a good organizer to stand up for law & order & our freedom?

I would be glad to get onboard, but I freely admit I'm more of a foot soldier than a leader of men...if only horses could be used for the cause.

So what do you folks say?

William

-- Posted by HorseGentler on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 9:31 PM

quantumcat,

Your age is not caught up with the times, we no longer living in the 70s or 80s. Money is scarce, and so is the middle class. By the way you speak, you must be dying soon because these words you speak are of a dying man or woman. Or, you are just out of touch with reality.

Basically I want the problem gone.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 7:14 PM

Or maybe he is just in touch with a higher reality that some of you don't understand.

-- Posted by devan on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 10:13 PM

Personally,I think a public forum is a wonderful idea. That way at least once we would be able to know where the local electorate stands on the issues. They certainly never addressed any if this during the last election. I have voiced my concerns by email to Senator Bob Corker and Jim Tracy and received a reply from both. But as far as local politicians other than the sheriff's office, does anyone know if anything is being done??

With a presidential primary coming up in Feb. do we in Shelbyville not have a right to express our concern and maybe together come up with a local solution before Bedford County goes bankrupt?

I know that I received a letter about not making the AYP scores at Harris for two years in a row because of non speaking english students. So what has happened there? no doubt more ESL teachers on the county payroll.

Or take a trip to the county health dept someday. Just be sure you are there before 8am to get in line or you won't be seen.And what is the local cost of court, jail,attorneys for somalians and hispanics, interpreters;etc? Maybe Bryan could get us some facts on this.

-- Posted by Patsy on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:05 PM

Thank you all for your comments.

-- Posted by quantumcat on Wed, Jan 2, 2008, at 11:57 PM

devan,

A higher reality? my god, do you all even comprehend what is happening? Do you really think god will protect you from this? Do you think god would say ok, let my people go, whilst you sit on your asses and let things happen? Hell no, he will say, Oh well they didn't heed my warnings so let them by slaves.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 6:11 AM

I agree Thatcher Ward - thanks for a GREAT POST!!

-- Posted by puppydinks on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 6:56 AM

I second william and ThatcherWard, I think it's a terrific idea to start something like that. However, I also must admit I have entirely too many irons in the fire to add another for organizing this effort. But I, too, am on board.

-- Posted by LauraSFT on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 7:40 AM

Quantumcat makes me laugh . . . I agree with his sentiments but I would value his opinion more if he didn't say that I am basically basing my judgment on the Somalis on some preconceived fear or lack of understanding. I think I have a far better understanding of them than most of the other posters on here considering they were my neighbors at Davis Estates for a year and a half. I have come in contact with many different Somalis while living there and tried to be nice by opening a door for them if they needed it or saying hello but I never got a replay back. I have had to deal with them acting unruly at all hours of the night and when I asked them nicely to please be quiet and try and be considerate of other people, they would tell me to shut up (or say far worse things). I have even had a set of them to put a nick in my car and they would get out and yell that they didn't hit my car even though I was sitting in the vehicle when it happened. They also have been known to hit many people's cars while never having insurance and they also have ran a car into a building . . . they took out a wall of a bottom floor apartment at David Estates. I have also seen them act like idiots in the parking lot while drunk or high and also have seen them be disrespectful to a Hispanic family who was very friendly and nice and the Somalis even stole the Hispanic girl's bicycle and were threaten her. Also, many would get confrontational with the apartment manager when she would try and tell them they needed to respect the neighbors. I could go on and on about the many experiences I had while living there including one trying to get in my apartment when I answered the door . . . but these people have no desire to change and I have seen that first hand. They consider us inferior even though they are the foreigners in this land and even though I have continued (and the community) to roll over and be hospitable, the fact remains there needs to be some compromise and they are not willing to do that. That is why so many citizens are getting fed up with the situation. It's like inviting some one over to your house to stay for a while but they decide to dictate the rules in the house and what the owners can or can not do.

-- Posted by jaxspike on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 7:49 AM

I believe one of the articles said that the Somalians that moved to Ohio quickly relocated as they didn't like it there. Hmmm, well I have never been to Ohio myself but I do know a few who have visited the Football Hall of Fame and I would say from what they gathered there is probably a reason the Somalis didn't like Ohio. People have the right attitude up there. You are here on your own free will, you can leave anytime you want to. If you are not nice to us we are not nice to you.

See, in the South we smile and wave and say "Hi how are you?" even when we feel like crap or don't really wanna know how they have been. We are friendly, maybe a little too friendly for our own good. Go to New York and smile at some random person off the street and ask how they are......you'll quickly find that they think that is odd.

I'm not suggesting we change that BUT since the Somalis are demanding "by nature" I say we start them all out up North were people are not nice by nature. They should fit in fine. If they don't fit in maybe by the time they get here they will have some appreciation for our hospitality.

-- Posted by LauraSFT on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 8:12 AM

It seems to me Patsy has the right idea. You all need to get your facts together, how much money is being spent in social services, schools, etc., what's happening to the crime rate, as well as have personal accounts of problems with them. Then when you speak to your local elected officials and TN State reps, you have some ammunition.

Also, some organizer type needs to get in touch with Anne Cocoran who runs the website at http://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpres...

This site has the complete information on what has happened to small towns where the Somalis have come in (mostly to work for meatprocessing plants), including Emporium, KS where they found a large incidence of TB.

-- Posted by Thatcher Ward on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 10:48 AM

Also, here's a website article you all might be interested in titled "Muslim Organization in Nashville Tennessee: An Overview" that sheds some light on what's happening in our great state.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage...

-- Posted by Thatcher Ward on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 12:07 PM

I think there's enough blame on all sides to go around.

I think it's quite within the realm of possibility for people to have a negative agenda.

That said,I think if people of all sorts decide to be mature,friendly and honest and focus on solutions instead of problems then a lot of the bad can be avoided.

That can't happen when people avoid one another,grumble behind one anothers' backs and convince themselves that this bunch has all the problems and that bunch has no responsibilities.

If we are one community,we need to act like it and work together and hash out differences.

No one gets to behave like a [REDACTED],[REDACTING][REDACT] to his own people or anybody else.

I'd like to think some seminars and town meetings might help.

The ones with sense within any group could help get facts out and discuss appropriate responses to all the issues.

One big message should get through.

Race,politics and religion are one thing but each one of us is an individual.

We each make our own choices.

Before we can expect respect from others,we must show we respect ourselves enough to have self-control.

If we love our cultures,we should accept that they will be perceived as being as honorable as their weakest member.

While we are children,we will have an authority tell us that our power and privileges depend on our behavior but adults govern themselves.

If we are noble,if we are worthy,if we deserve to be prosperous and free,we can't just claim we aren't inferior.

We must demonstrate it.

We must reject the roles of victim and oppressor in favor of being those who build,heal and encourage.

We can't improve ourselves by having contempt for others.

If we all want a bigger piece of what's good in this community,we need to contribute what's needed for a bigger,sweeter pie.

We must insist on a better choice than starving one neighbor that another might be fed.

The people of this region have earned the reputation of being generous with their love and their emnity.

If we don't flourish as friends bonded together,each division will sicken as it tries to destroy the rest.

If there must be battle,let it be all of us against our common foes and worst instincts.

That's the only battle we have any hopes of winning.

-- Posted by quantumcat on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 1:31 PM

I don't think blame belongs in a discussion like this. Ignorance of history, other cultures and their politics is our weakness. Also, idiot compassion and 'good intentions' can result in problematic results that have repercussions above and beyond the intended response. What is idiot compassion? It is constantly having to give someone fish for their dinner instead of teaching them how to fish.

-- Posted by Thatcher Ward on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 2:40 PM

One more article about the culture of the Somalis I mentioned before but didn't define, Female Genital Mutilation. This news is from Britain but pertains to them where ever they go. Now to the laundry!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/fe...

-- Posted by Thatcher Ward on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 2:44 PM

I wasn't going to post a comment, but after reading everyone else's comments I felt like I had to respond.

I've been to the local Wal-mart and had nothing but good experiences with the Somalians I've seen there, the women smile if I've smiled at them. I've also found that the owners of the Somali grocery store in town are really nice and tend to chat up my husband and myself when we go in there.

When I've dealt with Shelbyville locals, you're not all friendly like LauraSFT would have us believe. I'm constantly being asked where I am from, because clearly based on my accent, I'm "not from around here" - that isn't exactly what one would call friendly. Also, Laura, I've lived in New York City and the people there are much more open to newcomers than the residents of Shelbyville seem to be.

-- Posted by cranberry on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 3:17 PM

Ok, so you get asked where you're from....point being?? If that's the only basis you have for claiming that the majority of people in this town are rude I think you need a better example of rude.

-- Posted by LauraSFT on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 3:22 PM

cranberry, how about moving to the Davis Estates where jaxspike used to live, then come back and let us know about your experiences. You dismiss jaxspikes's and the other renters problems as what? Paranoia, bigotry, what? A smile at Walmart where your job is on the line, a word of greeting and small talk by the convenience store clerk who wants your business is miles away from living with neighbors at an apartment complex.

-- Posted by Thatcher Ward on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 4:02 PM

Yeah, cranberry - what IS your point? So you're "not from around here" - I agree with Laura, how's that show that someone is not friendly? Maybe they're trying to open up a conversation...

So if you don't like the people in Shelbyville and you feel the New Yorkers are friendlier then have at it!

-- Posted by puppydinks on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 4:05 PM

For FY '08,The refugee vol-ag's are going to split up 773 million-They say that's 93 million short.That's just for starters-We(taxpayers)then pick up the tab for the matching grants,state welfare,health department costs,law enforcement,english education at local levels,etc.Then add in depressed wages because if they can't get illegals,they bring in subsidized refugees.In Wisconsin they bus in prisoners to take your place.

Here's a little added attraction-

"Tyson and other giants have consolidated their power by purchasing chicken feed for, well, chicken feed. As soybean and corn prices dropped 21 percent and 32 percent, respectively, after the passage of the 1996 farm bill, the chicken industry effectively collected a subsidy of $1.25 billion a year, according to Tufts researchers Elanor Starmer, Aimee Witteman and Wise. The subsidy--worth $2.59 billion to Tyson from 1997 to 2005--represents the savings for the industry compared to paying for the full cost of producing the grain in its feed."

2.59 billion- and that's not counting '06 and '07. Add it all up - It's YOUR money!

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3190...

Whose Subsidy Is It Anyway? -- In These Times

-- Posted by blulitespecial on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 6:27 PM

Ron Paul for President, he wants to get rid of subsidies.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 8:13 PM

Most of the people that I have found rude in Shelbyville were mostly people that have moved here from other parts of the country. I am sure there are some hateful people that are from here but many are really friendly. I worked with a lady once who was from Michigan and all she did was comment on how ignorant southern people were and many of them were nothing but white trash but I tried not to judge everyone from Michigan because of her. I have also been to New York City and believe me, they are definitely not as friendly as they are down here because they were more fast paced and more in a hurry.

Also, people asked me where I am from too because my accent is a little different even though I have lived in Tennessee all my life. It doesn't bother me at all . . . I find it amusing in a way and have fun with it. Sounds like Cranberry is way to self conscious.

-- Posted by jaxspike on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 8:37 PM

Again,any one of us could behave well or badly and others could be judged by our actions.

We should try to do our best because our family,community,race,gender,age and ideology could be evaluated by our deeds alone.

Is that right or fair? No,but it's natural for that kind of assumption to be made.

Let's concentrate on having pride in ourselves and being the sort of people folks would want to claim as one of their own.

-- Posted by quantumcat on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 10:31 PM

LauraSFT wrote on Thu, Jan 3, 2008, at 3:22 PM, "Ok, so you get asked where you're from....point being?? If that's the only basis you have for claiming that the majority of people in this town are rude I think you need a better example of rude."

LauraSFT, you (rightly) reject the accusation of the majority Shelbyvillians being rude yet you're so quick to lump all Somalis together as rude and ungrateful.

Is yours a classic case of Cognitive Dissonance, hypocrisy or bigotry?

-- Posted by MikeSC on Fri, Jan 4, 2008, at 9:25 AM

Thatcher Ward -

I have a couple questions for you, first off, how do you know whether or not I live in the Davis Estates or if I have or do not have Somalian neighbors?

Second, by saying "A smile at Walmart where your job is on the line," are you saying that you think I work at Walmart? Or are you saying that the person smiling back at me is a Walmart employee? Because really, neither is the case - it's just one shopper being friendly to another.

Also, to puppydinks, I don't care that people think I'm not from Shelbyville, that's not the issue - it's the tone that's taken when I'm being asked about it. And it's also the way that I am automatically (whether it's conscious or not) treated differently by a lot of people because I am not Southern.

I also never said that I did not like the people of Shelbyville. Quite the contrary actually, I really like living here. I'd never been to the South before moving here and I really like living here - I'm actually trying to get my mom to move down here because I think she would like it, too. Part of the reason why my husband and I chose to live in Shlebyville as opposed to a different small town was that we liked the diversity and the diversity that we liked about it included both the Hispanics and the Somalians. I think that when our children will be in school, having to deal with people from other cultures will only enrich their experiences.

-- Posted by cranberry on Fri, Jan 4, 2008, at 9:38 AM

MikeSC,

Actually, I rejected what she was saying because her example of people being rude to her was the asking of where she is from. The examples I have in my head and many other people's heads of the Somalians being rude and demanding (as defined by one of their main supporters) are much different. You see, I work for a company that requires much of my time on the phone. I talk to people from different parts of this country on a daily basis. They all (if they haven't previously known) ask "wow, what an accent where are you from" and I PROUDLY say "born and raised in Tennessee." with a smile on my face. It makes no difference if they think I talk funny b/c I think they talk funny. It's a wash. Does that make me a bigot or a hypocrite? Not hardly, it makes me a PROUD Tennessean.

-- Posted by LauraSFT on Fri, Jan 4, 2008, at 10:19 AM

cranberry,

How many times have you been invited to share in their cultures? What cultural aspects have you experienced with the Hispanics and Somalians? I am intrigued because I want to experience this myself.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Fri, Jan 4, 2008, at 11:48 AM

I sit in on Spanish/English classes at one of the churches in Shelbyville - the Hispanics in that class are friendly and are as open to learning about our culture/language as we (in the class) are about learning their culture and language.

As for learning about Somali/Muslim and general Middle East culture, I work with people from the Middle East. The people I work with are very warm and inviting, if I have some questions about their culture they are more than happy to answer.

Sometimes just making yourself open to learning about different cultures will help you to experience them.

-- Posted by cranberry on Fri, Jan 4, 2008, at 1:49 PM

I'm pretty sure if your Middle Eastern friends are Muslim they aren't even supposed to be talking to you, because you are an infidel.

-- Posted by LauraSFT on Fri, Jan 4, 2008, at 3:16 PM

cranberry, since you didn't respond to counter jaxspike's comments, I assumed you haven't lived in the apartment complex. If you have, I stand corrected and would like to know your experiences.

OK, let's play the multiculturalism game. I have a Mexican uncle and cousin and a Chinese uncle and cousin. My Mexican uncle rode with Poncho Villa. My Chinese uncle owned a restaurant and introduced me to fried rice. Yum!

I have many friends from other countries, Hindus, Serbs and Egyptians. In their homelands, they were kafir, dhimmis, second-class citizens, and persecuted for their beliefs by Islam.

I have found the Muslims from the MidEast and Africa to be superficially nice(and some not so nice) but many of the men won't look me in the eye or shake my hand because I'm a woman. Islam doesn't think highly of women and the koran states that they can be beaten by their husbands.

Some questions for you. Do you think tolerance a one-way street? Do you think 9/11 was an abberation or continuation of a 1400 year jihad? Do you know what taqiyya is? It's sacred deception. It is an Islamic concept that is counter to the ethics I've been taught and is used by many imams who say one thing to kafir and another to the ummah.

The Somalis are a tribal culture with warlords and all the baggage that comes from practicing a dualistic ideology and not practicing the Golden Rule. They do not want to assimilate into the U.S. culture and do not abide by our laws. That's why there are problems where ever they go. You can defend them and make allowances for their behavior but they will always consider you a kafir for allah said they shouldn't take you as a friend and they piously adhere to the words of the koran and sunnah of Mohammed.

-- Posted by Thatcher Ward on Fri, Jan 4, 2008, at 4:59 PM

Oh and by the way, cranberry, ask your Muslim friends what they think of the Jews.

-- Posted by Thatcher Ward on Fri, Jan 4, 2008, at 5:02 PM

cranberry,

um, you didn't ask my question, all you said is, they are nice. I asked what Cultural aspects have you experienced? What church is teaching this class and how may I get involved?

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Fri, Jan 4, 2008, at 6:49 PM

Thatcher -

I'm glad you have such a developed understanding of Islam in the Middle East and Africa. I wasn't aware all Muslims interpreted the Koran the exact same way - perhaps because this is not at all the case. For example, the concept of taqiyya is generally associated with Shiite Muslims rather than Sunnis.

I wasn't aware of a 1400-year jihad, because there hasn't been one. Look at World War I, for example. The Ottomans sided with Germany and Austria Hungary, two Christian monarchies. Given that Austria was long the main rival of the Ottomans in Eastern Europe and is often a pivotal figure in the idea of a 1400-year jihad (like the Gates of Vienna website that referes to the major victory the Austrians and Poles had in 1683 against Ottoman attacks), I suggest the jihad model doesn't fit well. When the Ottoman government did try to call for a general jihad against the British and French by getting Muslims to revolt in India and African colonies in 1914, there was little response by Muslims in European colonies. If there was an endless jihad, why did France work with the Ottomans against Holy Roman Emperor Charles V in the 1500s, or how some Hungarian Protestants prefered to be ruled by the Ottomans because they hated Catholic Austria? Or why did the Shiite Fatimid kingdom refuse to join Sunni kingdoms against the invading Western Christians in the First Crusade? Or for more recent examples, look at how different Morocco and Saudi Arabia are as governments that both claim to be Muslim kingdoms based on shari'a law.

Do I detest the 9/11 attacks and al-Qaeda? Certainly I do. Do I think the Somalis working at Tyson are in league with them? It seems unlikely, especially since many of the recent refugees from Somalia are fleeing warlords who do share many of the same beliefs as the 9/11 attackers. A lot of the refugees are what are known as Somali "Bantu," people of non-Somali origin enslaved by free Somalis in the 18th and 19th centuries who are often looked down upon at home. This minority is often discriminated against at home. I lived in Central Africa for two years and met plenty of Muslims from Senegal and other West African countries. These people usually wanted to move to the US because of our liberties and economic opportunity. Some of them apologized to me this summer about al-Qaeda and attacks against Americans. This obviously isn't to say that some Muslims do hate the US, but all of them? Come on.

Some Muslims do hate Israel and view it as a colonial racist government - this isn't my own view. Some focus more on the government rather than Jews themselves. The West African Muslims I know don't care that much about Israel and have no love for Hamas. I'd be much happier if many Palestinians did reject the rhetoric and violence of Hamas, just as I would be happy if Orthodox Jewish settlers would give up trying to block peace agreements. I also would be happy if many Arabs recognized the role that North African Muslims played in hiding Jews from Nazi and French Vichy officials in World War II, as described by Robert Satloff's recent book "Among the Righteous."

As far as Somalia goes, you do know that Somalia was a strong US ally from 1977 until the collapse of Said Barre's dictatorship in 1989, right? A lot of the very weapons used against American forces in 1992 and 1993 were US-made, because the Carter and Reagan administrations dumped tons of weapons into Somalia to hold off then-Communist and Soviet ally Ethiopia. When the cold war ended, Said Barre no longer had the foreign aid to hold together his alliances with clans, and much of the country has been a mess ever since. Is it the US's fault for the civil war? No, but it would be naive to not recognize the US didn't have a role to play.

If Christians can have such very different understandings of their own faith, can one really expect to think that all Muslims think the same towards people outside of their faith, or how it relates to politics?

If you want to do your part fighting al-Qaeda by chasing Somalis out of Bedford County who entered this country legally, more power to you. Al-Qaeda is trying to convince Muslims that all Christians and Americans hate them. I'm sure they would be pleased by your efforts.

BTW, the Spanish/English classes are going on at St Williams Catholic Church. Feel free to let me know how Catholics aren't Christians.

-- Posted by cranberry on Sat, Jan 5, 2008, at 11:04 AM

Just beware of the smiles - behavior such as this can sometimes "stab you in the back"!

Anyone who doesn't accept Allah is always a "target" of Islam!

Didn't we find this out on 911?

Gee, how quickly we forget...but this is EXACTLY what they want - for people to "forget" and "forgive"...

I WILL NEVER FORGET OR FORGIVE!!

-- Posted by puppydinks on Sat, Jan 5, 2008, at 11:37 AM

cranberry,

Very well written and I commend a great essay, and I appreciate your response.

Isn't St. Williams Catholic Church one of the refugee centers that is/was affliated with the Nashville Center that had/has ties with Al-Qaeda. Not sure if you were aware of it?

The Centers' officers in Nashville were detained due to money transfers to the terrorists organization. If I can find the link I will post additional information, there is alot of fear about that. But my main concern is about Jobs, well basically Money. That has been my beef all along. Alot of money is being used to help non-citizens that are either in the country but a vast majority of the money is going overseas. We need alot of help here.

Katrina, Bridges collapsing, homeless, jobless, economy in the pot, educational system is apalling, so why are we bringing more people that need help? It makes me angry to see that, people living on streets or people with 4 year educations can't get a decent paying job.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Sat, Jan 5, 2008, at 2:01 PM

Cranberry, the Shia concept of taqiyya is also accepted by Salafi Sunnis which includes the Somalis. But according to the Koran, allah is the best of all deceivers(plotters).

I don't care about your view of the Jews. I asked you to ask them about their view.

Your historical timeline is way too short. Read about the expansion of Islam by the sword titled The Legacy of Jihad by Dr. Andrew Bostom. It is the definitive work in its documentation of jihad for the last 1,400 years. What happened to the 7 churches of of Asia in the Bible? the Christianity of Anatolia is almost gone, devasted by jihad. The mid east use to be Christian, central Asia used to be Buddhist and Hindu, all wiped out by jihad. Your historical perspective is narrow and that of the 'progressive' eastcoast elitist who've taken on the project to enlighten all us hillbillies and crackers how the world really works.

Of course all Muslims don't think the same or act the same, now or historically. But if they call themselves Believers in Islam, they support the sixth pillar of jihad and its resulting sharia law. If they don't, they're apostates and can be killed. Now the laws may take generations to implement because they're primitive, tribal and draconian and even many Muslims don't like them but eventually, most of the sharia will be implemented and kafir, you and me and all other non-Muslim are toast.

You should read the Hadith of Bukhari and Muslim, the Sira by Ibn Ishaq and the Koran. Islam cannot exist without this trilogy of work, for allah told the believers to pattern themselves after mohammed or they aren't true believers. What Mohammed did, said and believed is Islam and the basis of their politics, no matter where you live. Sharia law is Islamic law, allah's law, no matter what sect of Islam you belong to and a 'good' Muslim is supposed to do all he can to bring his ideology with its tribal laws to all the world, by the pen, the word and the sword.

Evil monkey, we bring in huge amounts of immigrants because of folks like cranberry who are filled with cultural self-loathing and idiot compassion and are indoctrinated by Gramsian social engineering, not to mention those who are profiting like bandits from low labor costs. So we the citizens will suffer until we become total dhimmis and submit to our elitist overlords and their Islamic allies or . . . we resist.

-- Posted by Thatcher Ward on Sat, Jan 5, 2008, at 3:19 PM

I guess I should let people know I'm the husband of the original cranberry poster. And I am happy to live in Bedford County - although I'd be happy to raise a holy war against all the people who have made the sides of the roads of the county look like garbage dumps. People need to keep the Bud Light cans and the Sonic cups in their cars - they don't do lawns or woods much good.

St Williams is not a refugee center. The Nashville center you mentioned - what is that? Is that the Somali Community Center? Or something else? Seriously, I am not familiar with that.

The US refugee policy is a mess - refugee status is hard to document and to determine. Won't argue with that, as I've been involved first hand in some cases. Have no idea how to fix it. Political refugees are generally housed in jails with the regular prison population if they don't have family or connections.

As far as Somali refugee resettlement has gone (to my knowledge), it has been hit or miss. Many were resettled in Portland, Maine - a very expensive part of the country, which forced a lot of Somalis to move an hour north to Lewiston/Auburn, a burned-out mill town. Lots of problems ensued - few jobs for the newcomers (or for anyone else - Maine's one of the worst states for business and personal income taxes in the US), increased costs for social services, and so on. People took out their anger on Somalis rather than on the bureaucrats who resettled them in places with very few jobs they could move into.

I worked with Somali and Sudanese people briefly at a temp warehouse job in LaVergne last summer and asked them why they came here. They worked pretty hard. The Sudanese tended to know more English, and translated Arabic into English for the Somalis (who generally know some Arabic). The refugees generally came from camps in northern Kenya. Basically, the Nashville area has a good rep among immigrants for industrial labor jobs, and Shelbyville has Tyson and cheaper rent then Nashville.

A lot of the behavior described on these posts might come from the fact these people came from a very poor country in the midst of a civil war, and then got stuck in camps where condiitions are pretty grim, and then go to a country where very few people speak English. That isn't necessarily an excuse, but rather one of the big causes. Then again, I've lived next to American drug dealers and been harassed by American drunk college students renting next door to us elsewhere before moving here, and I never thought to blame the religion of these annoying people for their behavior. Uninsured drivers should not be driving, but that's a lesson a lot of US citizens as well as immigrants do not seem too eager to learn.

I guess the million dollar question is what Somalis in Bedford County think of being here, or of non-Muslims, and no one on this list (myself included) can say much about that. There is a Somali Community Center in Nashville that I think has some connections to people down here, but I don't know the details. Since people generally came in from different camps in Kenya and probably came from different parts of Somalia, it would be hard to find Somalis who could act as spokespeople for the community (unless people could speak Somali or Arabic).

I have mixed feelings about bringing in refugees - it brings costs up and on the surface it seems like resettlement programs could be run better, but this country is a sanctuary for freedom for the world, too. This much I do know - a lot of the African refugees I've met work hard and are grateful to be here. It is their own governments and the lack of economic options at home that they can't stand. I can't picture any of them wanting to fight the US.

-- Posted by cranberry on Sat, Jan 5, 2008, at 3:30 PM

Thatcher Ward -

A few things to begin. I am a Catholic faithful to the teachings of my church, and have had to suffer through more "Gramscian social engineering" and "progressive elitism" in my undergraduate and graduate education than you can imagine (unless you've suffered the same thing, in which case we both can groan about the waste of money and paper involved). I am not in favor of unrestricted immigration to the US, either. I do not think of myself as somehow better than my neighbors, wherever they are from, and I certainly do not want to live in a country governed by sharia. There are a lot of things in my culture I do loathe, though - the abomination of legalized abortion and the many scourges coming front and center. So in some ways we probably are less far apart than you think, or internet comments can show. Let's spare each other the name calling.

If someone wants to tell me about 1400-year jihads or how Somalis in Bedford County must all be determined to establish sharia, I am going to disagree. I am aware of the references to the Koran you make - but how are the people in question interpreting jihad - as an internal struggle ("the jihad of the heart") and/or as war? It would be one thing if Somalis were burning churches here. I take it that your view is that these immigrants deep down want to take over, but are stuck lying in wait clothed in taqiyya? I don't buy it - the many Muslims I have known from other parts of Africa do not show any interest in establishing sharia, whether in at home, in the US, or central Africa. Does that mean they are fake Muslims, or does that mean Osama ben Laden is not the representative of all Muslims anywhere? I guess you take the former position, and I take the latter. I see Somali immigrants as people willing to work hard and cheaply, and you see them as the first wave of the jihad. And if "elites" (can we call them businesses?) hire workers willing to work fairly cheaply, this is selling out to Islam rather than the free market at work? Correct me if I'm wrong on what you think.

For me, the trouble with the 1400-year war idea is that it paints everything as a simple matter of the pathology of Islam and neglects the crucial importance of the 19th and 20th century: the collapse of the Ottomans, the colonization of most of the Middle East, the Cold War, the failure of Arab nationalism under Nasser, the creation of Israel, and the rise of Wahhabi views (which we both despise, I'm sure) from a fringe movement to the juggernaut fueled by Saudi oil money today. I don't think Charles Martel or passages from the Koran explain why al-Qaeda came together - it is events in the last century that did. Where you seem to see a struggle that comes from religion, I see a struggle that comes from specific historical circumstances that does not suggest Muslims are a one entire billion man army dedicated to attacking the US. I'm sure you aren't convinced by this, just as focusing on Islamic writings or broad generalizations won't convince me.

As far as the call to arms at the end of your message - in the end, what do you want to do? Restrict immigration by Muslims? Restricting the right of companies to hire workers freely, or to act on pressures from global markets?

-- Posted by cranberry on Sat, Jan 5, 2008, at 4:39 PM

Here is some more information on what organizations are involved. Alot of good links to the news sources are included to make it a little easier to read and check. Very interesting read, and a tad upsetting at the same time.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage...

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Sat, Jan 5, 2008, at 5:20 PM

Wow.

I'm still getting stunned by the posts we get here.

There may not be a lot of agreement but there is a lot of thought and information.

By the way,what strength can an ideology or lifestyle have if it must eradicate all those who are different to maintain superiority?

How much value can a society have if it must be supported with lies or silence versus the truth?

Why do we not trust the worth of our systems enough to promote them by our deeds more than words,our minds more than our pens and our plowshares more than our swords?

It takes little to overcome others in war.

Who has what it takes to earn respect and allegiance in peace?

If the new residents and the old have the wisdom and the gumption to hold onto what is helpful in their cultures,share it and latch onto what is good that another has,then no one has to fear losing a good way of life.

Nor do they have to fear that forcing a less-than-perfect system on others is the only way to preserve themselves.

-- Posted by quantumcat on Sat, Jan 5, 2008, at 6:02 PM

Somalia has been thought of as an Islamic terrorist nation since the mid 90's.

FROM THE OFFICE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS March 11, 2002

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2002/03/dot0...

From MSNBC June 2006

Somalia to become an Islamic nation?

Militia leader says he will only support a government based on the Quran

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13554051/

From The Council of foreign affairs

Somalia's Terrorist Infestation 2006

http://www.cfr.org/publication/10781/

Is Somalia Becoming New Islamic Terrorist State Video

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/is-som...

U.S. patrols Somalia for terrorist watch

2007

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washin...

UN report says 10 nations violating arms embargo in Somalia, potential high for war

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/1...

There are many many more reports to be found but I won't post them all..

By all accounts Somalia has become a Islamic Terrorist nation long ago..

Do you wonder my reasoning for posting these links?

Well I will tell you anyway :>)

I don't know about you but I couldn't tell a Islamic Terrorist from a Somalia Refugees if my life depended on it..but I do have to ask myself the question can the ones letting the Somalis into America by the thousands tell the difference in a Islamic Terrorist and a refugee?

I sure hope so..I hope the only way we find out is not by car bombs at Walmart.

I am not by any means saying the Somalis we have here in Shelbyville are terrorist but in all honesty how do we really know?

-- Posted by Dianatn on Sat, Jan 5, 2008, at 7:30 PM

cranberry, you seem like a very nice person. I wonder why you would rather live in denial than read four books that would enlighten you about the doctrine of Islam and its politics and its continuous history of jihad throughout the world.

Islam is fundamentalist as it declares that the sacred words of the only true god allah, the text called the koran, is eternal, unchanging and better than any other words of the other false gods.

The koran, along with its companion hadiths which comprise the sunnah of mohammed, are filled with hate speech against the Jews, the Christians and the pagans (those who worship many gods). That's everybody else in the world but themselves. These texts draw a line in the sand and declare Muslims are the best and only true Believers and that violence, robbery, rape and murder can be used against the kafir who will never be equal to them.

So Islam is dualistic as is its ethics. All charity is for Muslims, all brotherhood is only for Muslims. Islam is only for itself. This is against the Golden Rule that 'rules' the unitary ethics practiced by Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Zorastrians, Jews and most Animists.

As a Christian who has studied Buddhism for many years, who can't go to the cradle of Tantric Buddhism because it is in the Swat Valley in Pakistan where every single trace of Buddhist culture and philosophy and art has been wiped away by jihad, I am very disturbed that many people such as yourself won't take this doctrine seriously and truly believe Islam is only a continuation of the Abrahamic faiths which is not true.

And why do you ignore the political system and its sharia laws that are in direct conflict with our own Constitution? Historically, whenever the Muslims get to a certain percentage of the population, they institute sharia. Even now, we are under sharia law in the US when we won't discuss Islam like we do other religions in the media or connect dots from fear.

It's also disturbing that you and others won't take the time to do a little googling to see what Islamic clerics and imams say about their politics. One of the best sites to see them is www.memri.org.

I don't hate the Somalis or any other Muslims, for that matter. But that doesn't mean that I have to submit to their politics and their ways and become a dhimmi. And I will respect them when they earn it.

I think it's sad they're stuck in the 7th century where women are deemed forever to be inferior to men, where wives can be beaten and polygamy is legal and FGM is the woman's rite of passage.

-- Posted by Thatcher Ward on Sat, Jan 5, 2008, at 8:13 PM

Thanks for the info, Dianatn. You made a great point.

-- Posted by Thatcher Ward on Sat, Jan 5, 2008, at 8:16 PM

I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with seed.

What a beauty of a bird feeder it is, as I filled it lovingly with seed.

Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free

and

easily accessible food.

But then the birds started

building nests in the boards

of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue.

Then came the poop. It was

everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs, the table ...

everywhere!

Then some of the birds

turned mean. They would

dive bomb me and try to

peck me even though I had

fed them out of my own

pocket.

And others birds were

boisterous and loud. They

sat on the feeder and

squawked and screamed at

all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.

After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. So I took down

the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up their mess

and took down the many nests they had built

all over the patio.

Soon, the back yard was like it used to be . quiet, serene and no one demanding

their rights to a free meal.

Now let's see ..

Our government gives out

free food, subsidized housing, free medical care, and free education and allows anyone born here to be an automatic citizen.

Then the illegals (and refugees) came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families; you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor.

Your child's 2nd

grade class is behind other schools because

over half the class doesn't speak English.

Corn Flakes now come in a

bilingual box;

I have to "press one" to hear my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other

than "Old Glory" are

squawking and screaming

in the streets, demanding

more rights and free liberties.

Just my opinion, but maybe

it's time for the government

to take down the bird feeder.

-- Posted by puppydinks on Mon, Jan 7, 2008, at 1:32 PM

Since most of the support for these people comes from the Catholics, why aren't they sending them to the Vatican?

-- Posted by LauraSFT on Mon, Jan 7, 2008, at 2:52 PM

Muslims in the Vatican, That'll never happen.

-- Posted by Dianatn on Mon, Jan 7, 2008, at 2:57 PM

Didn't think so Diana, maybe that's a question they should be asked though.

-- Posted by LauraSFT on Tue, Jan 8, 2008, at 7:55 AM

If the seed of Abraham can't live together as friends here and now on Earth,how are they going to manage in Heaven?

Even if the infidels and riff-raff choose to exist elsewhere,that leaves a lot of loving people devoted to God who are very different.

Perhaps,we should try demonstrating our tolerance in the Vatican,the Holy Land,Dublin,Tibet,Romania,wherever and show that all of us-from Indonesia to Franklin and Wheel-can function as a community.

Otherwise,that bit about making sons of Abraham out of stone is going to look a lot better with time.

(At least until the igneous pebbles refuse to share digs with the sedimentary and metamorphic.)

Surely,we can use that ages old covenant as well as a piece of slate or quartz.

If not,why not transfer our contract to that black meteorite in Kasaba?

If we want to be altruistic,let's open up our neighborhoods and workplaces in the fancy realms as well as rural hamlets.

If we want to be practical,let's bring some huddled masses to the thriving,modern areas that share their racial and religious heritage so the culture shock would be minimised.

To use another animal analogy,once there was a shelter that had a lot of extra critters.

The people who took responsibility for them gave them shelter and medical care but knew they needed a lot of training and adaptation to their new lives before placements were made.

They knew that the people in their new homes would have to be aware of their special needs.

Each one of these charges was physically sound and friendly before it was adopted into a home that was prepared to absorb them into its family.

As a result,those animals got their "good citizen" certificates and would be welcome anywhere.

Another bunch warehoused whatever animals were sent.

No one thought much about their background or what they'd been through.

When things got crowded,they went out to the country an hour or so away and dumped the animals.

"They'll be alright. Plenty of room and houses around with people to take care of them."

So,the animals were out of their cages.

No one was waiting to execute them.

But,they had no homes,no source of food but the woods or Dumpsters.

Unknown threats surrounded them including predators.

The people around them wept to see their arrival.

"Maybe we can help but we've dealt with so many so fast.

They'll die or become dangerous if we ignore them but they won't even let us near them.

We want them to be safe,happy,and loved but could somebody care about our lives,too?"

You can't give a being freedom by just turning them loose whenever,wherever and however you like.

They have to be ready to succeed in their new environment-and their new home has to be able to survive their introduction,too.

Anthing less considerate is a sin.

-- Posted by quantumcat on Tue, Jan 8, 2008, at 11:09 AM

Why the U.S.? Why not Britain, Sweden, France, Italy, or any other country in the free world?

Could it "possibly" be that those other countries no longer allow them or don't want to spend the enormous amounts of taxpayers dollars necessary to relocate and house them?

Could it be the the citizens of those countries have put their foot down and said ENOUGH ALREADY?!

-- Posted by puppydinks on Tue, Jan 8, 2008, at 1:38 PM

France is burning,the UK is taking a closer look,and Sweden is getting downright hostile to immigration-

http://www.thelocal.se/guides/integratio...

The Local - The definitive guide to Diversity in Sweden

-- Posted by blulitespecial on Fri, Jan 11, 2008, at 9:06 PM


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Brian Mosely is a staff writer for the Times-Gazette.
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