Insuring a less healthy future

This requirement of carrying insurance is not a new thing, we are required to have car insurance, in Michigan you can not even get your tags without proof of it. We are required to have home insurance by banks to protect their intrest in your home. Yet we have little to no up rise against those.

I do not think there is anything wrong with people being required to have coverage, what I do have a problem with is what seems to be a vague explanation of how they are to afford it, and what it will cover.

The one thing that is certain is that it is being treated as a political battle first and a concern for the people last. The latest threat from the republicans to tie up the summit with "hundreds of amendments" is a slap in the face of all Americans. They have no intention of coming forward and in any honorable way addressing the issue. They have the opportunity to step up to the plate and help make a difference in this country for millions of people, yet they want to play games. If they don;t like the democrats plan get involved and help create a plan that works across the lines. These people ( both sides) are playing games with the lives of our citizens. They all ( both sides) need to grow up, drop the political ego games and get the priorities in order. Remember they represent us not the insurance companies. The plan as it is needs a lot of tweaking and even some serious changes it's true, but unless everyone involved up there make an honest and honorable effort to get it right we will have to settle for what we get.

I only wonder if they are (both sides) even capable of putting on their big kid pants and going at this as responsible adults, looking out for OUR intrest or if they continue the preschool playground bickering that is going on now and does little more than stab the American people in the back.

"The one thing that is certain is that it is being treated as a political battle first and a concern for the people last. The latest threat from the republicans to tie up the summit with "hundreds of amendments" is a slap in the face of all Americans. They have no intention of coming forward and in any honorable way addressing the issue."

-- Posted by wonderwhy on Wed, Feb 24, 2010, at 12:20 PM

No, the threat is not to tie up the summit. What is being talked about is to add ammendments when and if the Democrats attempt to ram the legislation through in a process known as budget reconciliation.

As far as the President and the Democrats coming to the summit with and open mind, it does not hardly seem so, considering they are standing pat that the legislation they have proposed is the only starting point for discussion.

I have posted polling data on Mr. Melson's other blog that clearly shows that the party in charge is also disregarding the voice of the peopole.

http://www.t-g.com/blogs/davidmelson/ent...

Here is a link to the polling data if you don't want to click through to the other blog:

Americans are opposed to the Obama/Democrat health care plan

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls

Americans think that the process should start over and pass smaller versions, taking on a few issues at a time

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-r...

well, i have not at any point indulged in fantasies that the current system is about to be improved. while the cost of medical care borders on criminal, and availability is a growing issue, there are not yet enough people disenfranchised from receiving medical care to create sufficient pressure to compete with the debts owed by both parties to the insurance companies... which are growing fat on the current system.

i will have to say, however, that i am thoroughly disgusted with the republican party on this and every other issue. why not the democrats? well, as a conservative the democrats do not pretend to represent my views. the republicans do... and calling it pretending is being kind. while the Party has decided to adopt a strategy for returning to power based on doing everything in their ability to bring about national failure on every front, i do not place the party ahead of the country, not any party. as a thinking conservative (so, perhaps not part of the population the republicans hope to bring under their umbrella) i am fully aware that the democrats and liberals represent a fairly equal part of the population. and, despite the rather childish practice of using liberal as some sort of swear word, the other side represents a range of people, from the same brainless sheep, to thinking liberals, whose desires to see the country succeed differ from mine only in the philosophy which they feel would be successful. both liberals and conservatives would like to see the economy prosper, health care and education improved, etc, etc. true representatives of the people, conservative and liberal alike, would be working to address these issues, and seeking to find compromise solutions, not stirring up the emotional and weak-minded to protect the patry's interests.

As far as requiring individuals to buy insurance, the federal government is going to find it tough sledding in court. That is clearly unconstitutional and state AGs are already lining up to challenge that in court. The comparison with car insurance is only marginally valid since those come from individual state mandates.

The federal government may try to circumvent the constitution by requiring states pass mandates for universal insurance by threat of holding back medicaid matching payments. It would stink but it's been done with highway funds so look for that in the future.

This issue is now no longer about coverage, health care or any other altruistic issue. This is now hardball politics. The democrats and the President see this as their signature issue. If this passes, his legacy will be set (for better or for worse). The republicans saw the absolute hatred for this bill this summer and have seized upon this as a weakness. Tomorrow will probably be a well choreographed political dance with both sides claiming they took the high road while the other guy was inflexible. That leaves the reconciliation option i.e the "nuclear option". One thing about nuclear options is that they tend to have a larger kill zone than originally intended. If the democrats throw that bomb I have one suggestion. Run. Really. Fast.

Mike, the obvious facts ( if you care to see them)are millions of people are unable to afford health care that if they could afford it would buy it, millions of people have preexisting conditions, many will die because of the inability to get coverage for one reason or another, (I am not referring to those who can afford it but choose not to). You and your republican no Sayers are choosing not to listen to those people, they are being swept under the rug, most of them are most likely at work when these polls are done or just conveniently not polled , we all know that polls are taken to "prove" a point and thus are taken with the intent to back what the poll taker wants them to. They are geared toward their followers with a touch of opposition to make them look good. Do you really believe those against heath care will zero in on those who need it to get their numbers? You go ask someone who is without coverage, who has lost their retirement or home, can not afford their medication, whose only option for care is a free clinic or ER ( stabilization and release with no follow up ) Ask them and you see who your heroes are shutting out, ask the obvious questions to those who are not sitting all nice and cozy with the needed care. Those of us who have coverage take it for granted, it is easier to look away than to see the suffering of others.

I wonder how much the opinions of those out their fighting against health care reform would change if they were the ones who had watch or endure going without coverage? Let them walk in the other guys shoes for awhile, reality can wake a hard heart up fast when they are the ones suffering.

I am not saying that what they walked through the doors to the summit with today is a complete and ready solution, but it is a place to start. So far what I have seen they are off to a good start. If both side truely go in there with the welfare of ALL Americans in mind it will be a success, if they go in with a chip on their shoulder and party pride first the American people will lose. They need to pass what they themselves would accept for themselves and their families. Those up their trying to kill reform would not like one of their loved one to be left in the gutter with the millions of people that their actions will be leaving there should they get their way.

People who are old enough to remember can tell you that most people used to have only "hospital insurance" or something along those lines. It paid for really big problems that required you to be laid up for a while ( it generally paid 100% as well). It also ignored things like a broken bone, the flu or similar issues, leaving the person to work those out with the doctor.

Then people started wanting insurance to cover everything. Soon no one asked the doc if a procedure or test was really necessary because only a $20 copay was required-so what's the difference?

If we started demanding our auto insurance to pay for new tires, oil changes, and wiper blades what would happen to the cost?

Government involvement has never lowered the cost of anything it can only shift the cost to someone else. Government programs are usually more likely to be havens for fraud and abuse as well.

Again I will ask-

Can anyone name a single government program that has worked as promised while coming in at or below budget?

That is true but a minimum basic level of care should be available to all.

-- Posted by wonderwhy

A minimum basic level of care is already available to all at no charge. We may not agree where that minimum basic level should be, but one is there.

What makes you believe people are "entitled" to...well anything?

We already agree healthcare is a finite resource. So, what exactly makes someone entitled to something they can't pay for?

I'm sure we can think of other things as well. Shouldn't children who live in government housing be entitled to a large backyard so they can run and play like other children?

Like it or not money is the metric by which people are judged. In most cases it is a fairly accurate judge of how hard someone works and how wisely they make decisions.

If they can only find a menial minimum wage job, have you asked what type of education and skills they have trained themselves with over the years to deserve an "easy high paying job"?

Hey Mike,"menial minimum wage job" wow your sure up on your pedestal with that one aren't you? Tell me where would you be with out all those doing what you call "menial" jobs? Who would cater to you at restaurants, if there were no servers? Who would supply and check you out in the grocery store? Who would do the "menial" work in nursing homes? Clean up the ER rooms between patients? Wal-mart could not function. Who would make this country run if all the so called menial workers were not there? Who would cash your pay check when you go to the bank if not for that menial teller behind the counter? Gee who would process your insurance claims and pay your doctors with out the clerks that do the paper work?My, my your nose is so far in the air that you can not see the all those menial workers in it's shadow. These menial workers are every bit as human as you, they feel pain every bit as deeply as you, if they get sick though they have a lot lower chance of survival than you because too many people out there like you consider them to be expendable and unworthy, not as good as , and some even consider those menial workers to be a plaque on our country. That thinking is disgraceful and an embarrassing in a country as great as this.

Basic humanity and the teaching of Christ to help the poor.

-- Posted by Midnight Rider

Christ taught that "if any would not work, neither should he eat." 2 Thessalonians 3:10

and under Mosiac law God said:

"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food."

Genesis 3:19

IMHO eating would rank far ahead of visiting the doc on most people's priority list.

I know it is just an archaic document to most liberals (until the ACLU makes a case), but WHERE EXACTLY IS THE CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY FOR THE FEDS TO BE INVOLVED IN HEALTHCARE?

Midnight Rider,

Great posts... and to answer your question. NO! People do NOT need to die because they can't afford health insurance, and if NOT-SO-QUIETmike really felt the same way he would understand THAT is the fundamental issue at hand.

So much for this "country first" mantra b.s., because in case people can not seem to remember, the COUNTRY elected Obama, and the Democrats as a warning that they WANTED health care reform, among many other things. I, understand you disagree with Obama, the Democrats and anyone else who may say yes to reform, but you needn't forget that the current majority in every single branch of the government did not get there by self-appointment. They were ELECTED, to pass sweeping health care reform, to end the Iraq war, and try to revive a plundering economy. Do facts not sit well with the other side of the aisle or is bitterness, divide and conquer still the party's motto?

It is so easy for the party of "no" to emphatically plead that they want to compromise and they understand that the current health care system does need reform. They had SIX consecutive years to "reform" health care and they certainly did... health insurers saw dramatic revenue and profit increases, pharmaceutical companies saw record revenues and profits and the American people suffered. Their idea of reform is to allow people with the ability to cut off funding tell you if your life is worth the insurance you can't afford.

I also might add, the Times Gazette had an unscientific poll that asked, "Are you satisfied with the current health care system in the United States?" and the results can be found here http://www.t-g.com/scripts/poll/archive.... ....219 people or 69.7% said "NO" while 95 people or 30.3% said "YES".... so tell me Mike, if the Republicans "should be applauded for listening to the American people", are you applauding them for listening to just 30% or are you applauding them for ignoring the other 70%?????

Midnight rider

No people shouldn't be allowed to die, but neither should we pass an unconstitutional measure that, based on historical data, will not achieve the outcome obama would have you believe.

No where in the bible does it say to create a government program to help the poor. It is left as an individual choice as an expression of God's love being shown through each of us.

The sad fact is that the majority of the poor are poor through their own lack of foresight and/or bad behavior. The number one health problem among the poor is obesity-a condition created solely by poor lifestyle choices. In fact the vast majority of all health care problems in the U.S. are caused by lifestyle.

Instead of spending trillions that are more about marking obama's place in history, than about health care, why not reform our current welfare and tax system that rewards poor behavior and punishes good behavior? that would more directly affect the health of the American people.

Thanks darrick, but you should understand that I am not in favor of this massive piece of legislation. I do recognize that we have a problem and something needs to be done.

I also say, as I have said a few times, that even though Obama was elected by a wide margin, and I will give you the point that part of his promise was health care reform, it is wrong to say that what is proposed is what the people were looking for.

Actually, I believe most people voted him into office more for the desire for change than anyone specific campaign promise that he made.

It will be interesting to see the polling data later in the week about how Americans feel about this piece of legislation after the summit. But, for now, the fact remains there was a wide majority of opposition to this particular legislation. This is a broad opposition that includes republicans, democrats, and independents.

I did not get to see all of the summit coverage, but from the what I did see, neither side was willing to give much.

The thing that bothered me most was the way Obama tried to downplay the importance of the polling data showing most people are opposed to this legislation. I would be interested to see if the statement he made will show up on factcheck.org.

But for now, here is the polling data again. Now, I have not clicked on every one of these polls, but the ones I did click were very specific in seeking to measure how people felt about passing the legislation as it is written. Here are the numbers:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/...

FDA, SEC, USDA, Patriot Act

-- Posted by darrick_04

So it's the old two wrongs make a right argument?

For the record I believe all the above should be abolished as well.

Wondewhy,

Instead of debating the facts of the matter you instead turn to class warfare and emotional pleas.

I'll bet the DNC is proud of you!

First off I'm not rich by anyone's definition, but because I refuse to accept the victimhood mentality that is so widely preached by the left, you automatically assume I am one of those oppressive, evil, rich people. That must be more of that liberal indoctrination showing itself.

I have said no one should be left to die because they are poor. But obamacare isn't the only alternative as liberals would have us believe.

As I have pointed out (several times) before, and you have ignored (several times), if a government run healthcare plan for the poor was the answer, Medicaid would have solved that problem decades ago.

It hasn't.

So why would another government run healthcare plan do what the previous government run healthcare plan failed to do?

Can you answer that simple question?

You know there is more to making this country function than looking impressive, or sitting on the edge taking credit for the actual work done behind the scenes by the low paid, demeaned greasy gears.

-- Posted by wonderwhy on Sun, Feb 28, 2010, at 10:42 AM

You have a point. Answer me this. Who put those gears into motion? Who went in debit to place the grease on the gears? Who applied for a job that would not be there is some"rich" person had not risk their money to start the business? You cannot have all things your way. The fact is America and American Business carry the weight of everything. If you are such an advocate of socialism why don't you start a business and send every penny it grosses to the DNC and just sit and wait and see what they do with it. I am all for helping the hungry. But I would do it by teaching them to plant their on crops and stop reaching into my crops...outonthefarm

Until people actually take the time and effort, till you actually decide that you are not any better or more worthy that your neighbor because of some ego related ivory tower. Until people realize that all of us have an important roll in the out come and value of our nation, be it in a menial job cleaning toilets or the big CEO of a company. Until we know what it is to walk in another persons shoes and see the reality of how and why they are there. True many are functioning well below their abilities for what ever reason, be it illness, circumstances, and yes some are just good at working the system that has many flaws. We can only guess the reason, but truth is unless you have walked in their shoes you do not know, you only assume what best fits you desired reason to be, the reason that makes YOU feel the best about it. Berating and playing the "I'm better than you - your scum game" gets us no where. Reality is to just throw them all to the curb will create more problems than we have now. What is needed is a way to move these people from where they are to a place where they can and will function independently. The state of this country is not healthy enough to provide employment that can at this time support all families in manners that can make them totally independent. There is not enough gainful employment to go around. We need to find solutions that not only encourage those on aide to become more independent we need to find ways to make that possible. Sure it is easy for those who have to feel entitled and allow their egos to convince them they are better than the others so they do not matter, but the truth of the matter a persons integrity, honor and heart says a lot more about a person than their social status and pay check.

The person who is willing to share their last dime, who would be there to help another ( not just with money but emotionally and by encouragement)Those who have good solid principles and love for each other, these are the people whom should be looked up to, they have honor and integrity they are the ones who are of the true value to this country. They are the ones who when push comes to shove will be there for each other and not throw those they consider below them under the bus. The people who are so high up on their ivory towers( usually mode of plaster and can crumble at any time) who can see nothing in the shadow of their up turned noses may be impressive to each other but as far as humanity goes they are mere warts on the backs sides of honorable people who actually value the lives of others. No a big pay check does not make a person more valuable, just because a person does not have a fancy car and big in house does not make them expendable. I have met and been around wealthy people who in spirit and all that really matters are poorer than a church mouse under a bridge. The bum in many cases will share his last 2 beans should some one be in need, where as many wealthy men would rather die or let the other one die than spare a bean, they would never actually miss.That is truely pitiful. I know people who go around flaunting themselves as high and mighty in their big houses and fancy cars, looking down on and condemning those who are in their eyes beneath them, who in reality if you were to take their portfolio and compare it to the bum under the bride would be of a financially lesser status. The bum may have nothing, but the ego is far in a hole of debt it would take him years of paying those he owes money to, to rise up and break even with the bum. They look good to those who they want to impress but in reality they are nothing but fakes with little to no integrity to stand on, just smokes and screens to impress the shallow people they wallow around with. How impressive is that?

Don't be too quick to judge that person whom you feel Superior to, you may not be all that when all the qualities that make a person truely gifted and honorable are taken into account.

Snobbery is not a good quality, it can effect any income level, however it much easier for those who find their worth in a pay check to fall vulnerable to. I am not judging any one here to be a snob, but we can all use a good check up in the mirror from time to time to check for the signs. A good sign to look for is feeling superior to your neighbor, feeling that your more entitled to basic human necessities than the person next to you for what ever reason. people often only choose to see what they want to, shutting out reality much of the time to make their worlds what they choose them to be. it takes a big person to look outside their safety zone an really see the things that make them uncomfortable and might make them have to change their opinions of themselves. We are all only human, and can be guilty of being inflexible, that is why it is so important to evaluate our own motives often when we judge those around us.

Go look at yourself, do you bow to your ego or do you look beyond that for reality?

Even with all it's flaws those programs

provide life lines to millions of people, many who would have dies or been disabled the rest of their lives without them. Not everyone considers this sort of thing failure. But then again by your standards those people did not deserve the cures and help they have received do they? I would place a large bet on the fact that should you ever be in the position of becoming disabled, possibly even death, and needed the assistance you would refuse others ( while you smiled and patted yourself on the back for doing so) that you would choose health and life- you would get right in line for the assistance. You would do like you appear to do now and put your self first. So you just go ahead and keep on proudly kicking those whom you consider beneath you down as far as you need to keep your ego fed. But when you reach the age of retirement you'll surly cash those social security checks and use your medicare plan same as the rest of.

Now I'm sure you have better things to do than try and convince lil ole me to accept your snobbish attitudes, I just don't accept that hard working, honest people are not any good if their pay checks are less than yours. So go polish your plaster tower, would not want it to lose it's ivory shine. Yea, call it class warfare, go shine your sword, I'm sure you'll fight to their death to keep um down where you think they belong. Personally, I would rather fight to help them get back on their feet and prosper than to enjoy their demise. I'm grateful there were those ahead of us caring enough to help when the bottom fell out for us. It only took a couple months but we made it. Without the temporary help we would have lost everything. Now we are helping others who will pass it on in the future. It's what being compassionate, caring is about. It is what honorable caring people do. I just do not fit the republican way of greed first first, people last.

I am not " programed" by the rabid rights classfare war against the middle class,I just care about others. And by speaking outI hope people like you will give up your puppet strings and actually look around you and see the people in this country are in trouble, and the more we let corporations and their greed take over the worst that trouble is going to get, don;t fool yourself they will be at war with you too as soon as they run out of the ones they're working on now, it's just not your turn yet. Obamacare is not perfect, but it is a start in the right direction.

Obamacare is not perfect, but it is a start in the right direction.

-- Posted by wonderwhy on Wed, Mar 3, 2010, at 4:33 PM

If nothing else you have a future as a fiction writer. just what part of the "plan" do you see as a step in anything other than a steaming pile? I commend you in that you want to do something to change the status quo. However, doing something in the name of just making noise is not the answer.

I too care about those around me. I came from nothing and with no assistance from anyone. The fact I came from nothing, is what drives me to help those with no means of helping themselves. What you fail to understand is, that until those that can, do, those of us that have, won't.

Do you own a business? I doubt it very highly. If you did you would understand what I and many others keep saying. We are taxed to the point of being forced to lay off workers. Your only response is what? That the owner of the business should forgo a profit? Why? I did not get this country into the mess it is in, neither did just one party. You are very clearly a left winger and for that I understand your diminished capacity to understand that the only way this economy will ever turn around is a massive tax cut for business. You can say what you want. You can go tell it on the mountain. But the truth is the truth, Obama cannot do this, the republicans cannot do it, nor the democrats. It will be small to medium businesses grossing from 250 K to one million a year that will pull the country back from the brink. Trust me when I say that group will not hire, spend, or expand under the current atmosphere of the forced contribution to anything, including the so called health care overhaul. During the "Bush" tax cuts I was able to purchase over a half million dollars in vehicles, equipment, and facilities. That half million dollars translated into jobs in the automobile industry, the construction industry and new jobs in my work force. What does this administration do? They divided the country and polarize the population. Why? So they can expand the portion of the population that looks at the world as one big entitlement program. Why? so they will vote and keep them in office. When you have a constructive solution that works for everyone offer it. Until then you can just keep grinding away acting like the wealthy are headed to hell in a hand basket. See what that attitude garners.....just saying from ...outonthefarm

I have to agree with 'farm' on his assesment that you don't own a business.

Tax breaks will NEVER have the same effect as not being taxed (or more properly, taxed additionally) at all.

Tax breaks will NEVER have the same effect as not being taxed (or more properly, taxed additionally) at all. gottago

Well I'm not so sure that is always the case. At a certain point you can get wealthy enough that you can buy into enough tax beaks that your have enough tax write offs to make it where they actually end up paying less taxes than the average middle class person. (I'll bet not many of those people would want the straight tax system.)

WONDERWHY,

Are you incapable of answering a question?

Why do YOU believe obamacare will succeed where Medicaid has failed, when both were advertised as the cure for the same thing?

CAN YOU PLEASE ANSWER THIS ONE SIMPLE QUESTION?

I asked do you pay a living wage for your employees to be able to afford health care at today's rates? If not what would you suggest they do to get it?

Here is your chance to convince me, tell me what you would do about the health care problem in this country. Tell me what you think the people who are not able to pay the hundreds of dollars monthy, plus the high co-pay and out of pockets besides. Tell where you think those who can not get coverage should go when they need care. What solutions do you think will work, would you put on the table if you had the chance.

What is your workable answer to this nation wide problem ?

-- Posted by wonderwhy

If a person is unsatisfied with their wage I would suggest they make themselves more valuable, by learning a skill, improving their education, or maybe just working harder. If they have those things and still don't have a good wage they need to find a new employer.

What should be done about the cost of health insurance?

Create a tax deduction for the cost of insurance.

Allow people to purchase insurance across state lines, eliminate laws that limit competition.

Allow individuals to form groups to pool their resources to buy insurance at cheaper rates.

Bring in tort reform to limit ambulance chasing lawsuits and the unnecessary CYA testing that is a result.

Reverse the way of thinking that insurance is supposed to pay for EVERYTHING!

Most babies are born after ~7 months of warning, yet how many people shop for the better prices for a delivery? Same with an annual physical. Or numerous other routine procedures.

Admit that the majority of healthcare problems in the U.S. are directly caused by lifestyle choices, and take some personal responsibility for our own health.

Recognize that we are all going to die. If we save ourself from one disease we will just find another way to die.

As for social security and medicare.

I am well past half of my working life and have paid into both programs for many years. I would gladly forfeit the money I have already paid into them and any right to collect any benefits from them if I could be exempt from paying into them any longer.

Since you're not going to answer my question about Medicaid, I'll ask another.

If you owned a small retail business here in town would you still believe people are "entitled" to things they can't pay for? If someone walked out of your store with a product in their pocket w/o paying would you chalk it up to neediness or would you confront them?

Or would you have a sliding scale of prices based on their ability to pay?

A loaf of bread is free if you're below the poverty line, $3 if you're income is average, and $20 if you're wealthy (to ensure fairness).

""Since you're not going to answer my question about Medicaid, I'll ask another"".

I DID ! ! !

Again since you refuse to accept my answer I'll repeat it ---- Me and millions of others DO NOT think it is a failure, we realize there is room for improvement , but it is not something so flawed it should be scraped. Ask the people and families of those whose lives have been saved, who because they were able to get health care are not disabled and on public assistance but were able to return to work because they had medical care provided by these program,

""If a person is unsatisfied with their wage I would suggest they make themselves more valuable, by learning a skill, improving their education, or maybe just working harder. If they have those things and still don't have a good wage they need to find a new employer.''

Spoken like a person who has lived a rather sheltered life.

You have some good suggestions but in the real world it not as easy as you make it sound. There are many people through no fault of their own ( I am not calling them victims, they are just at different starting points than others)are in situations they are doing the best they can in (one example, the mothers who stayed home to raise a family only to have the husband dump them later, these women did the right thing and were thrust into single parenthood, some how I can see you out there complaining about child support being to constrictive for the fathers, but what should that woman do? I have worked with many women in this position, they married men who claimed they would be there, that wanted their wife at home taking care of him and the kids, so she trusts him, does not go to college. Well now he's off with his new twit and she is doing the best she can to raise kids, work 1 or 2 jobs at below poverty wages ( for a family of 4 takes a wage of about 10.60 an hour, if I remember correctly). She is not a low life, she did not neglect her duties, now she is putting in every hour she can, where does time or money for college come from? Should she neglect her kids? Now I bring this example to point out that even though you have good suggestions often times in the real world they are a bit in the "pollianna" mentality.

Lets not forget the millions who lost their lives savings in this last economy fall down we just had, they worked saved and earned their retirements only to have businesses fail, pensions lost and 401k disappear. They did the right thing all along and now are in some cases worst off than those who never did a thing. Are they trash and unworthy too?

You can come up with all your excuses about why people are worthy in your eyes for basic affordable heath care, but in the end we are still all human, we do not now the whys or hows of where a person is in their lives, how they got there, why they stay there or even if they deserve to be there. I find your attitude as very offensive because I come from a family that my parents started out way below the poverty level and busted their tails to climb tooth and nail to the middle class they respectfully live. They did every thing in their power to get their, but by your narrow minded self righteousness views they do not deserve to be treated as respectable humans , they deserve to be left on a corner somewhere, because they don't have the 800 dollars pr month for health care ,while some fool whose had Mommy and Daddy cover their silver platter with all the goodies that life could want with out a bit of hard work are great and wonderful in your eyes, oh , they have money so they are better people. Your a very shallow fool in my eyes. Any one who can not see value in the hard work and devotion of somebody unless they show it with big impressive pay checks, anyone who can honesty feel and believe that those who have climbed from less than nothing to just above poverty is substandard, and undeserving,well those people may have money but they are so poor in spirit they have little to no real human value.

You know what I don't have the answers anymore than you do, I don't claim to, but I know that just because a person does not have wealth does not mean they choose to be that way, it does not mean they have been lazy, lack willpower or character. It does not mean they are less worthy of basic necessities in this world than you or I

Yes some are lazy of what you accuse them of , but they are not the rule but rather are the exception. DO you actually believe that you are able to just throw a blanket judgment over them all to suit what you want them to be so they fit your pigeon hole, thus you can feel entitle to berate them with out guilt to turn your back and feel superior. How sad.

Yes you will take your "socialist" medical , and socialist Social Security check, your words will become empty once there is something in the plan "for" you. Once your one of them, then it will be ok.

The simple fact is some people feel they are so far superior to others that they are incapable of looking at the facts, seeing reality, and looking for anything but what will help them to continue to feel better than those around them. You portray yourself as one of them. No I don't know the answers to how to fix things, I do now that most people do not choose to be poor, I know many who have worked harder, climbed farther, have more worth in their calloused wrinkled bodies than any of us ever will, yet they can never achieve what has been given you by birth right ( I don't claim to know where you came from but I can promise it was well above those I refer to)

Class warfare? Oh yea, average hard working people have always had to fight for anything they get, work twice as hard, get a tenth the credit and dodge the manure being throw at them from people with attitudes of entitlement snobbery.

I am all for responsibility, hard work, accountability, and pushing as hard as one can, (I do not think people should just sit back with their hands out) but I have seen and watched many honorable hard working people, take everything in themselves to push harder than you have a concept people can do to get UP to and barely pass poverty. You don;t have the ablity to comprehend the reality of others livesyet you give yourself the right to judge them. You and I don't have an ounce of the honor they do, we have been blessed enough not to be in their shoes. Where we differ is I respect them and you despise them. How sad for you.

No I don;t know about why congress does anything, I don't claim Obama's plan is perfect, I don't pretend we have the answers, but I am proud to be of a heart and mind that values life (even after the cord is cut) that does not think a pay check shows how worthy a person is in this would - Madoff had a big bank account - yet a Nun's is not much to brag about. By your standards the Nun would be trash compared to Madoff.

There are people with the mind set that greed is value and compassion is evil. I can not follow that mind set. Enjoy your ivory tower, should it crash and you get a good dose of reality, don't worry not everyone assumes the worst of people who need help as you do. I'm done here.

I DID ! ! !

Again since you refuse to accept my answer I'll repeat it ---- Me and millions of others DO NOT think it is a failure, we realize there is room for improvement , but it is not something so flawed it should be scraped. Ask the people and families of those whose lives have been saved, who because they were able to get health care are not disabled and on public assistance but were able to return to work because they had medical care provided by these program.-- Posted by wonderwhy

medicaid was created as a safety net for the poor who could not afford medical services. the fact that it is a failure is amply demonstrated by the fact that we are debating the need for a new safety net for the medical care of the poor.

Do you realize the tax rates necessary for your idealism is the single largest reason the poverty level is so high? Even your evil repressive rich people only have a certain amount of money. They can use that money to either pay taxes that will be wasted or they can reinvest that money to hire employees, buy equipment, or invest. ALL OF WHICH create jobs- real jobs, not the "shovel ready" ones we hear about from obama.

I have already explained a couple of times I am not rich-Is it that hard for you to separate your debate from liberal talking points?

Something needs to be done to reign in spiraling health care cost. But, a massive bill such as the one being considered is not the way to go.

Why? One of the arguments that has been put forward is the problems that beset currently run government health programs Medicare and Medicaid.

"Waste and fraud are pervasive problems for Medicare and Medicaid, the giant government health insurance programs for seniors and low-income people. Improper payments -- in the wrong amounts, to the wrong person or for the wrong reason -- totaled an estimated $54 billion in 2009. They range from simple errors such as duplicate billing to elaborate schemes operated by fraudsters peddling everything from wheelchairs to hospice care."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100310/ap_o...

This is from an article about Ohama's plan to employ hi-tech bounty hunters. In order to try to eliminate waste and fraud. Why did he not propose something like this when he was a senator?

That is just 2009. I shudder to think of what the dollar amount would be over the life of this program. Yes, it has provided much needed services, but we can't just continue to allow this to happen. And, until we figure out a way to eliminiate this wastes and fruad, we should not add more fuel to the fire.

In light of the current waste and fraud taking place now, there is no logical reason to think that healthcare proposed by this current legislation would be any more efficiently managed.

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-- Posted by wonderwhy on Wed, Mar 10, 2010, at 9:23 AM

You post the 10 items as if they will some how magically sway everyone that the answer is as simple as stated. The problem is there is not a finished product. You can attempt to paint any picture you wish but anytime the government gets involved in any aspect of private enterprise they effectively take it over. Just look at GM. The governement raised ______ wanting the evil CEO removed because he was basically dead weight and highly over paid. Obama stated CEO's should have a cap on their pay and that anyone should accept that mega wealth is evil and unfair to the poor. Now the goverment is paying the man 3000.00 an hour to consult on how to run the corportation. Really, is it going to be hard for you to grasp that the same thing will happen to Obamacare? Do you really think he or anyone of the majority really cares if little Johnny is healthy? No, they do not, What they want is a segment of the population that is large enough in mass and dependent enough on entitlement that will keep the tax and spend liberals in power. It is that simple. Now before you jump up and preach you will understand it will fall on deaf ears......outonthefarm