David Melson

Innocent suffer as Dream Act fails

Posted Saturday, December 18, 2010, at 4:52 PM
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  • Didn't we have a "one time" bill in the eighties?

    Prejudice and politics?

    How about following the law?

    -- Posted by quietmike on Sat, Dec 18, 2010, at 5:24 PM
  • Unique-Lies - While I disagree with the tactics of the IRS and the manner in which the government taxes the citizens, I believe it is a bit reckless to suggest that people don't have to pay taxes. Going "off the grid" is one thing, but the vast majority of Americans aren't able to fight off the IRS and live peacefully. Since they have the power to seize everything that someone owns and very few, if any, judges are willing to rule against the Department of the Treasury, there aren't many that are willing to join the sovereign citizen movement. I'm not saying you CAN'T fight the IRS, but if you plan on it, you had darned well better have your ducks in a row.

    -- Posted by Thom on Sat, Dec 18, 2010, at 9:04 PM
  • What about we Americans that have lived here our entire lives and payed taxes?With your theory David,that makes us responsible for feeding,educating and medical expenses for all the illegals AND their children.While I understand your premise of the children are the ones who suffer,that to me is not an excuse.I dont know the exact dates but this has happened a few times with illegal aliens getting amnesty,that is why it continues today.The liberal left,the aclu and their ilk have made it to where in this country its all about votes and not offending anyone.I for one call it as I see it,lock the borders put all illegals out and take care of our own.I honestly dont care who I offend,this country was built on Christian values and now we are not supposed to say Merry Christmas,or illegal alien in fear of offending someone.What a joke.If we should tolerate illegals then why cant I drive 55 in a 30 or drive my truck without the constraint of a seat belt while in some states you can ride a motorcycle without a helmet,if a woman who is pregnant is murdered the guilty get charged with 2 counts of murder but a woman can go have an abortion without telling the father.The double standards are rediculous.Cut off the employment of the Illegals and they stay home,pretty simple huh.Its all simple just certain elitist groups think they can talk over people who they see as dumb teabaggers and whatever name they come up with today to try to demean people that do not agree with their opinion.I know it is a long post but I am frustrated about the direction of the country I used to live in.Thanks and MERRY CHRISTMAS.

    -- Posted by cookvol1 on Sat, Dec 18, 2010, at 11:40 PM
  • I agree with the Senate on this one (mark that one on the calendar, lol). But the illegals get lots of free stuff already! They cross the border to have anchor babies to they can stay here and get FREE medical care, FREE education, FREE food stamps, NO FEDERAL Income Tax, etc. How much more FREE should we give them? Why should they be allowed to get anything from our tax money when they don't belong here.

    They are allowed to sleep 10+ in a one or two bedroom apartment, which us as Americans, are not allowed to do. I tried to get a 2-bedroom apartment before. They told me that I would have to have a three because it is me, plus 3 children. And only 2 kids can stay in a room together. I also agree that we should close the borders and kick every single illegal out of this country! Not only would that open up jobs for those who cannot find a job, but it will also stop anymore of the spread of Whooping Cough, and any other diseases that are brought up here.

    I have no problem with those who come here legally, they learn our language, etc.

    But as for those trying to use the bleeding hearts of "the poor children", that doesn't work. If I was to commit a felony like the all of the illegal aliens are doing, then I would be thrown in jail, my kids would be placed in foster care where there is no telling what would happen to them.

    Send the kids, anchor babies or not, back to their original countries and make them come back as legal as well.

    -- Posted by PrpleHze on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 6:29 AM
  • cookvol1,

    It was Reagan that gave amnesty to the illegals in the 80s. So if you are saying liberal left, you might want to re-think that and educate yourself on history. This country was not built on Christian values, it was built on freedom from religious persecution. I agree with you on the fact this country is going in a strange non-common sense direction, but to blame democrats, liberals, or the boogyman when you seriously don't even know whom to blame.

    -- Posted by Evil Monkey on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 6:30 AM
  • You say the innocent suffer and that those affected where brought to the US as children. While this may be true, this bill allowed those "innocent children" who are now adults up to the age of 29 to become a citizen. Why? When you turn 18 you are considered an adult. Do you not think the ones that are between 18 and 29 know they are here illegally? Why are they not trying to go through the proper channels and paperwork that is in place now to become a citizen if they so desperately want to be a US citizen?

    -- Posted by Rodney Simmons on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 9:28 AM
  • I can never figure out who Republicans hate more...Mexicans, Gays, or Black people. Republicans are also fighting the bill that will let Gay people serve in the military, but it looks like Democrats got two Republicans to join them on passing that bill, so they may have enough votes now.

    -- Posted by Rocket Valentine on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 10:27 AM
  • Actually, Rocket Valentine, if you had bothered to conduct just a modicum of research (i.e. reading a newspaper or news website) before posting your blather decrying all republicans as racists and bigots, you would have known that there were eight republicans that voted FOR the repeal and that it passed last night. But no, you just wanted to take a pot-shot at ALL republicans and posted your ignorant statement without even bothering to look at the results of the vote last night. It is knuckleheads like you that give all the democrats/liberals a bad name.

    What you, and most proponents of this bill, fail to realize is that even though it has passed both the House and the Senate and the President is sure to sign it into law this week, there are many studies and training that have to be conducted. There are policies, regulations, and sections of the UCMJ that have to be written (and approved) and if you have ever had any dealings with the military, you know those things are not going to happen overnight and nothing changes until those requirements have been met. The way I figure, this policy will not change before the next Presidential election, so that means that Obama will be able to use this as yet another carrot for the liberals. "If I'm not re-elected, the republicans aren't going to finish what we have started"...or something to that effect, will be one of his many "top priorities".

    -- Posted by Thom on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 12:41 PM
  • Wow...8 Republicans. Out of 40? Guess that's something to be proud of?

    -- Posted by Rocket Valentine on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 12:55 PM
  • If that's all you got out of my response to your post, you're more of a lost cause than I thought.

    -- Posted by Thom on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 1:44 PM
  • monkey you are exactly right,it was wrong then and it is wrong now regardless of the political view.However,if you look at the liberal progressive movement now wanting to give healthcare to everyone,owning banks,car companies etc. it is clear they have lost their way.Now,dont be telling me I need to educate myself,seeing as how you responded,you must be a Dem. as you think you are superior to everyone you reply to.Valentine as for you,they are not gay,they are queer,blast all you want but if you would use a little common sense and get off your politically correct soap box you would realize that there are MALE and FEMALE human beings.Think about that before you start trying to blast me.Monkey,yes America was founded with Christian values,I guess now you will tell me that all the Govt. buildings dont have Biblical passages or pictures of Moses and others from the Holy Bible on them that are now being covered up.Yes the settlers moved here to avoid persecution from what???Exactly.to be able to worship without persecution.But dont do it in public in this country anymore for fear you may offend someone.I hope I offended with this post I am not going to walk on eggshells for the illegals,muslims or queers.Valentine before you spew your venom in reply to my post I am NOT a Bigot or Racist.Some of my best friends are black folks that I trust a lot more than some of my own family,so go spew some place else.

    -- Posted by cookvol1 on Sun, Dec 19, 2010, at 5:42 PM
  • To be honest Rocket Valentine, your statement was a broad generalization of Republicans and so Thom or anyone else has the right to disagree with your statement because in fact it was wrong. Eight Republicans voted for DADT which equates to 20% of the Republicans in the Senate which would go against your na*ve opinion that Republicans hate gays.

    Using stereotypes only show the limits of ones own knowledge of the world around them. It is even worse when you state something on false facts.

    -- Posted by jaxspike on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 9:45 AM
  • It would seem to me that giving amnesty to anyone should also include strong deterents to prevent it happening again. Closing down borders, seizing the proerty of, incarcerating, and deporting these law breakers.

    Except for deportation, those are the same penalties that a citizen who breaks the law currently faces. If the government is doing a poor job of administering the laws that we already have, then why would anyone think they will do a better job this time around?

    -- Posted by Liveforlight on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 12:33 PM
  • cookvol1,

    I didn't attack you chief, but American was NOT found on Christian values. You state that all the government buildings around the country have bible verses and statues around them of biblical figures. And? Well you seem to have discounted the facts, right near those statues and verses, there are PAGAN status of Zeus, Titan, Hercules, as well, as Egyptian Glyphs and Monoliths... Hell the Washington Monument being the largest. ROFL are you really that naive? And next time, invest in a space bar; it makes you look frantic.

    -- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 2:18 PM
  • See this slide show for proof of Americas christian foundation. You will want to make this full screen.


    Here is a link that does a good job of explaining "Church and State" in the constitution)s)


    -- Posted by Liveforlight on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 3:00 PM
  • The US was not founded on Christian values. Our ancestors came here for Religious Freedom or the right to practice whatever religion they wanted without the fear of persecution. They did not come here and create everything based on christianity. If this was so, then, as Evil Monkey, stated, there wouldn't be all of the Pagan, Illumianti, etc symbols throughout the US on capital buildings, our money, and even statues and monuments.

    Liveforlight, sometimes you have to research historical facts that are not bias, to get a complete understanding what is going on. Most of your christian beliefs and traditions, were first started by other religions but were changed and adopted by the christian religion later on after the periods of mass murdering of the pagan societies in Europe.

    -- Posted by PrpleHze on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 4:14 PM
  • Prplehze- Most of MY Christian beliefs and traditions? Which ones would that be? Perhaps you are talking about Christmas trees and such, of which I do not accept as a Christian tradition. those were an attempt by Rome to incorporate pagan beliefs and traditions into society in order to consolidate their rule over the people. Sound familiar? Is that not what we are seeing happen in this country now?

    I admit I have a Christian bias. To get a "complete understanding" as to what is going on, one simply needs to read the Bible, submit to the authority of God, ask, and listen to the Holy spirit as he reveals the truth to you. There are none so blind as he who will not see.

    The US was founded by Christians and is well documented in many places, many of which are included in the links I posted above. Do you think they would incorporate values into the newly formed government that they themselves did not hold?

    Christian values do not condone murdering pagans, but instead insists on loving them even as enemies, just as Christ did. That would include illegal aliens. It does not include accepting their values as your own. The founding fathers made no requirement for the citizens to conform to Christian values, but realized that those values are what will make you free. No other religion or government offers that freedom.

    The course we are now on will see those freedoms erroded back to what history has already shown us under other forms of government, only this time it will be global and there will be no "new world" to escape to.

    The Bible tells us that in the last days the love of many will wax cold due to excessive lawlessness. That is what we are seeing happen right before our eyes.., if you will see.

    If you don't hold Christian values then your own bias opposing them is likely to blind you to the truths that they hold.

    -- Posted by Liveforlight on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 8:03 PM
  • David said "Once again, the innocent suffer". That is the way it has always been. It is always the innocent that suffer at the hands of the guilty. Just as Christ did.

    So, in this case, who are the guilty, the lawmakers who chose not to change the law, or the parents who broke the law and put the innocent children in this position?

    Knowing who is guilty, of course, does nothing to help those innocents but should go a long way in preventing further injustices in being done.

    Justice would demand that compensation to the innocent should come from the guilty. In that, our government shares blame for not enforcing the law in the first place, thereby preventing this situation from having ever occured.

    If there is to be no enforcement of the law, then why have a law at all? and.. why offer incentives to a segregated group of people to receive benefits from a law that, in reality, doesn't exist?

    -- Posted by Liveforlight on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 8:18 PM
  • If someone broke into my home and they had their kid with them, and the parent was arrested, am I cold and heartless for not keeping their kid? Would I be responsible for raising the kid and making sure it gets an education? I dont think so. Although I do feel sorry for them, but if they are over 18, then they know they are illegal.

    -- Posted by greasemonkey on Mon, Dec 20, 2010, at 9:09 PM
  • Actually, common sense has prevailed here. The "Bad Dream " Act would have given in-state tuition to people who, not only are not citizens of the state where they want to attend college, but are also here illegally in the first place. I, even as a US citizen, cannot get in-state tuition in, say, Alabama or Kyntucky, but illegals could get it. That makes no sense. Also, Why should "going to college" erase the committment of a crime ? I can almost agree with military service, but the bottom line is that their parents who brought them here in the first place have done this terrible thing to them.

    -- Posted by Gauss on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 8:05 AM
  • Liveforlight,

    Mere graspings of the word God and Jesus by a couple of people that lived in the past, doesn't mean the country was founded on Christianity. There are many people that are Christians that lived in the past. But to assert that this government was formed for the purpose as a Christian nation is absurd. I have no idea why are you documenting things that happened before our separation of the united States from Britian when it has NOTHING to do with your assertions.

    America was founded on the FREEDOM to practice any religion without persecution. First amendment, I noticed that you don't mention anything from Thomas Jefferson.

    -- Posted by Evil Monkey on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 9:49 AM
  • monkey I aint your chief,and before you start correcting someone one using space bars or grammar, proof read before you post and get your facts straight.I think you just want to argue and that I hit a nerve.Oh and my name is Mark,chief!!!I also think the EVIL in your name just might say a lot about your Christian phobia

    -- Posted by cookvol1 on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 4:22 PM
  • cookvol1,

    Still didn't answer the question, nor did you observe the facts presented to you. You seem to do a lot of assuming on how I feel or what I believe. Sorry if you are upset, but your lack of spaces made it very hard to read. Since you seem agitated, I apologize that you didn't use a space bar, that's my fault. It is, also, my fault for not knowing your name is Mark, I should have known that too. My mind reading hasn't been working as intended.

    But to state that I am an unbeliever because America was not found on Christian values seems very strange for someone to say. Especially when you don't even know me or what my faith is. I suppose your mind reading is not working as intended either. It is pretty easy to observe that there is plenty of evidence pointing that a large portion of the founding fathers were deists. Not Christians.

    -- Posted by Evil Monkey on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 5:21 PM
  • to assert that this government was formed for the purpose as a Christian nation is absurd.

    -- Posted by Evil Monkey on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 9:49 AM

    I never said their purpose was to form a Christian nation. I only said it was founded on Christian values by Christian men.

    Other religions probably share some of those same values, since something of value is usually recognized.

    The recognition of God is clearly written in the preamble of the constitution, that we are "endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights". Then this question comes to mind. What creator? Who was the writer talking about? Who were the signers referring to as creator? Allah? Buddha? Zeus? Satan?

    I think the answer is clear, at least to me it is.

    -- Posted by Liveforlight on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 6:26 PM
  • Not any of the above, or Yahweh either, but the Clockwork Creator, of course.

    -- Posted by memyselfi on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 6:45 PM
  • Here is some good reading for those interested in "The Law". It is a book written by Frédéric Bastiat a Frenchman in 1850.


    It deals with what the law is and should be. He points out the problems with Socialism, Communism, monarchy, and other forms of government.

    Basically, he says that our life, liberty, and property should be protected by the law. He describes in great detail how some people work to secure these things while some "plunder" them from others.

    He says at one point that America has the closest form of government to allow true freedom but correctly identifies two areas where the U.S. had failed at that time, Slavery and Tariffs. Remember, he wrote this in 1850. Two years after Karl Marx set-out his socialism ideas on paper and 15 years before the American civil war.

    This is what "The Law" should do; Prevent the "plunder" of others, not legalize plunder under the pretense of helping others.

    If our country would recognize this, we will be on a much different path.

    -- Posted by Liveforlight on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 6:50 PM
  • Forgot to post the exerpt from the "The Law" book.

    Here it is;

    The law perverted! And the police powers of the state perverted along with it! The law, I say, not only turned from its proper purpose but made to follow an entirely contrary purpose! The law become the weapon of every kind of greed! Instead of checking crime, the law itself guilty of the evils it is supposed to punish!

    If this is true, it is a serious fact, and moral duty requires me to call the attention of my fellow-citizens to it.

    -- Posted by Liveforlight on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 6:55 PM
  • monkey you are the one making assumptions.I am not aggitated or angry.You are the one that snapped with the chief comment and as far as the spacing I dont have a clue what you are talking about as it is clear that you dont know what you are talking about

    -- Posted by cookvol1 on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 8:57 PM
  • Well its about time the blogs get kicked back into gear, LOL!!!! Sure have missed the lively debates.

    -- Posted by greasemonkey on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 9:15 PM
  • cookvol1,

    LOL, still avoiding the facts. And punctuation. For example:

    "I aint your chief,and before you start correcting someone one using space bars or grammar, proof read before you post and get your facts straight.I think you just want to argue and that I hit a nerve.Oh and my name is Mark,chief!!!I also think the EVIL in your name just might say a lot about your Christian phobia"

    As you can see, you avoided any inclination in proving anything you say. Instead you tell me to proofread my writing. Yet I don't see any problems with it, grasping for straws? What assumptions are you stating? It seems you are agitated by the above quote due to the !!! at the end of the "non-spaced" chief. So to state I am wrong doesn't seem so off base. Or should I apologize for that as well? That must be my fault too.

    The reason you don't have a clue of what I am talking about is, you lack the capacity to think clearly when you are in an agitated state.


    It's winter time! :)

    -- Posted by Evil Monkey on Tue, Dec 21, 2010, at 11:48 PM
  • Rocket Valentine should worry more about who the Democrats hate before continuing to defend the party of George Wallace and Bull Connor. Democrats gave us the Jim Crow laws and the KKK. Senator Robert Byrd was a leader in the KKK in his early life before being a Senator and helped Democrats filibuster the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Orval Faubus was the Democrat Governor of Arkansas that ordered the National Gaurd to block black students from attending Little Rock High School. Democrats do not have a monopoly on loving their fellow man.

    -- Posted by cortnerkin on Wed, Dec 22, 2010, at 4:58 AM
  • I agree cortnerkin, it was actually a Republican administration under Abraham Lincoln that ended slavery. No wonder the south was pro-democrat for so long.

    Slavery should have been abolished when the nation was formed as Mr. Bastiat said. In "The Law"

    Download and read this seventy page book. It is very interesting.


    -- Posted by Liveforlight on Wed, Dec 22, 2010, at 6:38 AM
  • Liveforlight,

    Just an FYI, Jefferson Davis was against slavery as well. It was going to happen with or without Lincoln. It was only the rich plantation owners that convinced the poor folk in the South to fight for them... Oh wait, this is starting to sound familiar... Could we be falling for the same bull crap that happened 150 years ago? Naaa, we ain't that stupid.

    -- Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Dec 22, 2010, at 8:20 PM
  • Davis and the founders should have abolished slavery in the very beginning. Frederic Bastiat pointed it out for the failure it was in 1850 in "The Law" book. .

    I believe it was the greed of Davis and the other elites of that time that did not take appropriate action to free the slaves. How could they write that "all men are created equal" and not know that slavery was wrong? They knew! But failed to correct the problem. The cost for that failure was very high, and is still being paid today

    They wanted the "plunder" just as Mr. Batiat said, and it still continues today. The only way to stop it is for "The Law" to prevent "plundering" but instead we have the opposite. An elite group of bankers and politicians who pervert the law in order to increase their plunder. This is occuring in both political parties. There is no real difference, they are both working together to write the laws to plunder the people of their life, faculties, and property.

    Bastiat does say in his book how to reverse the problem, and how difficult it will be, especially under our current conditions. The problems, just as he said, evolves into systems and usually takes some kind of revolution to correct.

    -- Posted by Liveforlight on Wed, Dec 22, 2010, at 10:05 PM
  • Liveforlight,

    Totally agree that something needs to happen for anything to really push the confidence of the people to find and vote for the right people. The problem we are seeing is, We pick people that vote any way they want. But really, the people we vote in are supposed to be our voice/vote. They are not listening to the constituents of their districts.

    -- Posted by Evil Monkey on Thu, Dec 23, 2010, at 12:48 AM
  • They listen to the ones with the money. Their main objective is to obtain plunder for their districts and themselves. This is done through legislative earmarks and other public works as well as campaign contributions and direct payments.

    They have lost site of the fact that their only JUST job is to prevent the plunder of their constituents. Instead, they use the law to plunder others for their constituents.

    Bastiat does an excellent job of laying all of this out in his book. It is the prevention of plundering of our fellow man that the law should concern itself with. As Bastiat points out we are on the cycle from dictatorship, to revolution, to Democracy, to socialism, to communism, back to dictatorship.

    Only the people can break this cycle and they will only do so when they learn to stop plundering each others life, faculties, and property. It doesn't matter if the plundering is done by menas of law through licenses, fees, and taxation, theft, or through fraud and inequitable labor practices. It is still the plunder of a mans life, faculties, and property.

    No one has the right to plunder someone else and we, as a group, have no right to plunder an individual. Only a right to prevent that individual or group from plundering someone else.

    This is the way to a free society. I highly doubt that people can lay aside their greed enough to make this work. Therein lies the real problem. I believe it will take the spirit of God to work on the hearts of men to accomplish this task. Until then, we will continue to ride this cycle and argue with each other over who is justified in their view point, when none of us are as long as we condone plundering of our fellow man no matter how low or high their status is.

    -- Posted by Liveforlight on Thu, Dec 23, 2010, at 5:57 AM
  • "Therein lies the real problem. I believe it will take the spirit of God to work on the hearts of men to accomplish this task."

    I disagree to a point, because sitting on our butts praying about this hasn't done a thing for 200 years. I believe the collective masses that are in sync with each other can achieve this goal. And this collective must not listen to the mass media outlet whatsoever. The sole purpose is to protect individuals properties, whether physical or not.

    Everything needs to start at a local level though. Do you honestly believe that will happen? Only through some type of catastrophic event would something like this be achievable. Because no government in place could enforce it.

    -- Posted by Evil Monkey on Thu, Dec 23, 2010, at 12:59 PM
  • I just had another thought. If this covers the illegal up to age 29, then I wonder how many millions of illegals are going to get there fake ID changed to show they are under 29.

    -- Posted by greasemonkey on Thu, Dec 23, 2010, at 4:08 PM
  • Liveforlight, Okay, so you like Bastiat. A lot of what he is getting at, at least on the surface, resonates with me as well. I just wonder though, if you realize that while he is aggressively condemning the plundering being done by others through the force of law, he is only defending his own preferred method of plunder.

    It seems to me, that a lot of what seems to bother you about today's society is the direct result of philosophies similar to his as they have developed through time.

    -- Posted by memyselfi on Thu, Dec 23, 2010, at 5:15 PM
  • To you people not understand that "undocumented citizens" ACTUALLY PAY TAXES... If one doesn't have a Social Security number, then the IRS mandates they have a Tax Identification Number. Regardless of how you spin it, both "legal" and "illegal" citizens pay taxes, every time they shop in one of our hundreds of millions of retail outlets, grocery stores, restaurants, or convenient stores. The only people who pay no income taxes are those whose EMPLOYERS do not document them...

    I am just as in favor of legal immigration as anyone from any political ideology, but to deny children who have been here since before they could walk, speak or hold their own bottle a pathway to citizenship is downright sad. Everyone screams about illegal immigration, with a sad conclusion that the only people who are here illegally have brown skin and originate from below Texas; but the truth is, there are millions of illegal residents from all over the world, who reside here, through NO fault of their own.

    I fail to understand how asking these people to attend a college or university or help defend our country in exchange for full citizenship is in any way a bad thing. Isn't it ironic how the 111th Congress has been the most productive and legislatively successful Congress since the 1960s, and all this while fighting an uphill battle with those whose answer to everything was NO.

    -- Posted by jesuslovesevery1 on Thu, Dec 23, 2010, at 8:22 PM
  • -- Posted by jesuslovesevery1 on Thu, Dec 23, 2010, at 8:22 PM

    I dont see how the fact that they pay taxes makes them being here any more legal.

    I really dont care if someone is from Mexico, Canada, Africa, or Mars. Illegal is illegal. I am sorry that there parents brought them here. They have been put into a bad situation, and I truly feel bad for them. Although, there are going to be thousands of illegals take advantage of this (well not now, being that it didnt pass thank goodness)by continuing to come here and bring their kids or lie about their age. I have no problem making some kind of arrangements for "children" as in under 18, to be given some kind of citizenship option if they werent born here. The first option should be they should go back with their parents. When they get deported, they dont just disintegrate, they will be living somewhere.

    Before we make any kind of concessions for citizenship the first priority should be shutting down the border ASAP.

    And what kind of progress has congress made for the better? Larger and more intrusive govt. more govt. spending?

    -- Posted by greasemonkey on Thu, Dec 23, 2010, at 9:08 PM
  • Evil Monkey- I agree! Sitting on our butts and praying is not what I meant. As Memyself pointed out, similar philosophies to Bastiat have taken hold and developed into systems. It seems to me these systems are slowly erroding our freedom and will eventually result in genocide as it has done in so many cycles in the past. Maybe this is just part of the human condition and there is no cure.

    But then, again, when God moves on your heart, it doesn't mean you set on your butt and pray. It means your human condition has been changed and you work to change the world around you.

    There is nothing wrong with an organzied government. The problems begin when the plundering begins and that springs from greed or ignorance, not from loving your neighbor as yourself like God commanded.

    The law should protect the members of the organized group without plundering the members of any group. That means personal responsibility not setting on your butt.

    As unique lies pointed out, we are way beyond simple plunderings, however we are not owned by the bankers or the government, because the earth is Gods and everything in it, including the bankers and government. You are only a slave to whatever has mastered you.

    If there is to be real change it will have to come through the people and in that there is no room for hypocrisy, but sincere hearts and commitment. I believe only God is capable of changing the human heart in such a way. He does it through people maybe even you or me.

    The best gifts are the ones we can't buy ourselves, and that is what God gave us through Jesus!!!HAVE A GREAT CHRISTMAS!

    -- Posted by Liveforlight on Thu, Dec 23, 2010, at 11:31 PM
  • This post is very specifically directed towards "liveforlight" and "cookvol1".

    There were so many egregious historical (and for that matter, rational) errors posited by these two, I thought I would drop some *direct* quotes. I doubt this will make a difference since at any moment they (and others) squeeze in the word, "God" (which is in itself the biggest non-sequitur of all time) as if it remotely has any bearing on ANY topic.

    "The Govt. of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion" - John Adams

    "What have been Christianity's fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution" - James Madison

    "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology." - Thomas Jefferson

    "Lighthouses are more useful than churches." - Ben Franklin

    There are many, many more. I also left out Taft, Edison, Einstein, almost every reputable scientist etc. This was just a BASIC history lesson on the founding fathers' beliefs. Look up "Deist" (that's your "creator" - they can be forgiven for not enjoying contemporary science like us).

    What else, let's see...

    The holiday of Christmas was stolen from a pagan holiday, celebrating the winter solstice (down to the evergreen). The name of course is tacitly Christian.

    "God" wasn't added to the money or the pledge until sometime in the 50's, I believe.

    We seem a "Christian nation" because evangelicalism - and the subsequent power, greed, fear, guilt, ignorance, and indoctrination - have stymied progress (on many fronts) for a good while. Religion is an accident of geography. A shame.

    EvilMonkey nailed it.

    -- Posted by Jazzy on Fri, Jan 7, 2011, at 11:10 PM
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