Fact or Faith

Posted Thursday, September 20, 2007, at 10:00 PM

This is all the proof I need!

Seems that everybody is having to have facts and don't rely on faith anymore in the belief that Jesus Christ was and is the Messiah . I live on the 1% chance of the bible being true as as Christ would have said "the faith of a mustard seed".

I believe with all my heart and soul that his baptism took away all my sins forever, his death paid for them, and his resurrection means that my faith will not be in vain. My flesh will will still sin , the same as everybody else'. I promote no certain church as being the only bride of Christ. The bride will be only the ones who are spotless , and the only way to be spotless is to have the water and the blood of Jesus on you.

But for those who insist on having facts ,here are a few.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Genesis 3:15 KJV

But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Galatians 4:4 KJV

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 12:3 KJV

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Genesis 17:7 KJV

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:16 KJV

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

2 Samuel 7:12-13 KJV

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luke 1:31-32 KJV

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7:14 KJV

1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew 1:23 KJV

Nevertheless the dimness [shall] not [be] such as [was] in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict [her by] the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Isaiah 9:1-2 KJV

And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, [by] the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Matthew 4:13-16 KJV

Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 53:12 KJV

Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Matthew 27:38 KJV

And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left. 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

Mark 15:27-28 KJV

For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Luke 22:37 KJV

My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

Psalms 22:16 KJV

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Zechariah 12:10 KJV

And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

Mark 15:25 KJV

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalms 16:10 KJV

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men]. 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Matthew 28:2-7 KJV

Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.

Psalms 2:8 KJV

2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 2:27 KJV

I could post all day , but I will close with this. I never once said the Bible was a book of science , but a book of faith.

No other offers a chance a redemption the way that the Bible does.

I was asked how I knew that I was going to heaven , the answer is I just know for I have known since birth that there was a Saviour , and his name is Jesus Christ.

One of my favorite reruns on T.V. was always Dragnet when Joe Friday would always say "just the facts". My Jesus says "just the faith, that is all I need "

Be Blessed and Be a Blessing!

yours truly

Michael Bell

But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Romans 4:24 KJV

Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present [us] with you.

2 Corinthians 4:14 KJV

That is all I need to know!

Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing. 1 Thessalonians 5:11

Comments
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hmm The new Crusades?

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Fri, Sep 28, 2007, at 12:05 AM

Very much so! Doesn't make much sense... You would think, if that is where Christianity began, then that is where it would be predominant, but that is not the case.

Wow, good point!

-- Posted by darrick_04 on Thu, Sep 27, 2007, at 10:29 PM

Isn't it odd that the country or "areas" where Jesus was born and raised and roamed are NOT Christian?

-- Posted by countrymom on Thu, Sep 27, 2007, at 10:15 PM

Pontius Pilate actually saw that Jesus has done nothing wrong and washed his hands of it. He said, if you want him dead, let it be by your hands. He was talking to the Jews.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Tue, Sep 25, 2007, at 12:47 PM

I only question what I don't understand or what I don't know. If I feel that a discussion is thorough and it makes sense to me, I won't question it. Remember, I have a cousin who's religion is Judaism...one of the reasons that I don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I don't question your religion, although I do have many questions, simply because it's what you believe..and you've proved that you are a firm believer and won't back down. Most of Micheal's blogs are just his own beliefs and opinions. I'm sure there have been times when he was wrong on a certain topic, and has been corrected..but look at the comments. Everytime he brings up anything about what he believes in, he is questioned. You question his faith, because faith doesn't have any answers...and you aren't able to get your answers.

-- Posted by weezie84 on Tue, Sep 25, 2007, at 10:50 AM

To prove a point. You are not a Christian, but you are so quick to tell the Christians on here how wrong their beliefs and religion is. I'm just trying to help you see that no matter how many times you try, when a person believes a certain way, it is completely pointless and a waste of time to try and sway them to believe differently. Just because you have a different way of believing, it doesn't mean that your way is the ONLY RIGHT way. Perhaps if you were more open to others' religions, you could see that. Honestly, with all of the different religions out there today, no one can really claim a RIGHT WAY of belief. Why? Because there is no proof other than documentation. The people in the time of Jesus Christ and others are not here to speak up and defend the beliefs. I know that you and many others do not agree with what Micheal has to say, and even myself don't agree with the entire bible or what Micheal has to say..but it's up to each individual to make their own decisions and assumptions. In the end, we will all have our answers. Some just seem to question and question until they find some sort of answer now.

-- Posted by weezie84 on Tue, Sep 25, 2007, at 10:40 AM

oh yeah, and I think I've figured out your religion. You say that Christians live by faith..I think "People of Jewish faith" live by denial. There. I sound more like you on here now. I will feed you for as long as you like. Just keep taking the bait.

-- Posted by weezie84 on Tue, Sep 25, 2007, at 10:07 AM

since Mr.Bell has informed us many times that you can't use the old testament or live by the laws of the old testament because Jesus said God's word was no longer valid.(revolution)

Wasn't it YOU so many times that have told many of us on here that we shouldn't even bring up the old testament because it has nothing to do with us? It only talks about YOUR people, the Jewish..as if you are in fact a full blooded Jew? Which by the way, I find it completely hypocritical for you to say that Jesus has nothing to do with the Jews, when he was a Jew and it was Jews that killed him.

I think what Micheal was referring to, is the fact that the old testament deals with alot of GOD's wrath and punishment, however after the death of Jesus Christ, the new testament brought forth love and forgiveness. I don't think he meant we shouldn't use the old testament.

-- Posted by weezie84 on Tue, Sep 25, 2007, at 9:53 AM

well so what you are saying is that God and Jesus are one? Because I always thought that Jesus was his son and would be sitting by his side. Kinda hard to do if they are the same person. Now do you know why people don't understand Christianity? Too many "mythological" things going on.

-- Posted by stolen25 on Tue, Sep 25, 2007, at 9:50 AM

I never said that Jesus done away with the Old Testament.

Time and time again proved that nobody except the one who created it himself, for Jesus is God could fulfill it so he said in the New Testament.

God the Spirit came down in the Flesh as man , lived as a man was tempted as man and died like man , but he arose.

If man could live the laws ,then he would not need salvation.

God could of made us like robots and programmed us to love him, which is not true love .

Love is when you want to love and want to spend a life or eternity with somebody, not to be forced to.

-- Posted by michaelbell on Tue, Sep 25, 2007, at 7:36 AM

darrick_o4: The fault is not in the Book but in the human interpretation and yes there are a lot of denominations, sects, cults, etc. and some I would consider totally false, but the majority hold to some core beliefs that make them more alike that different. Are there any parts of the Bible that you do believe?

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 11:47 PM

Evil Monkey: I mentioned Matthew, you never mentioned Mark.

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 11:39 PM

That is exactly what I was trying to say. nascarfanatic said that Christians use Jesus as a scapegoat and I was trying to explain the background of it. So if the scapegoat story is in Leviticus and Leviticus is part of the Torah and the Torah is the most important document to Judaism, don't I know just a little squat about judaism. :)

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 11:37 PM

Mark, I never mentioned Matthew

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 11:37 PM

If Christianity is the best choice, then why are there 38,000 forms of it? And why does each seperate denomination feel the need say that "our" way is the best...?

devan, I guarantee you that you and I could walk into a Church of Christ, a Baptist, a Methodist, a Pentacost, Church of God, Catholic, or any of the other 38,000 groups who think THEIR way is the best, and get 38,000 different interpretations of who is going to heaven/hell, what is/isn't sin.. etc...

And YET, with 38,000 DIFFERENT CHRISTIAN denominations, you and others are going to have the faith that THE BIBLE is exactly perfect without human or denominational prejudices??? ABUSURD comes to mind...

Ah, alas we have 38,000 different "christian" sects that can't even agree on the Bible, yet for some reason, when someone outside of those 38,000 sects ask you a question, you all join in unison to say "faith" is all you need... Tell that to King James who did brainwash his people and had them write the scriptures from a monarchial viewpoint. We don't live under a dictator or a king, yet "King James" is what you have faith in.

-- Posted by darrick_04 on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 11:22 PM

Revolution: Looking back at my original comment maybe I wasn't clear about the scapegoat. So let me say I didn't mean to imply that Jesus was a Jewish concept but that the scapegoat is.

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 11:11 PM

Evil Monkey: Because Matthew 21:25 is the scripture I gave you earlier and I didn't see any place where you said Mark in any or your posts.

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 11:07 PM

I didn't say Jesus was a Jewish concept. I said the scapegoat was a Jewish (Old Testament) concept, and that Christians see Jesus as fulfilling the role of the scapegoat in having the sins of the people laid on Him.

I also didn't say that no Christians blame God for bad things. I said the Christians I know (and cherish) don't blame God for bad things. Don't paint everyone with the same brush. Saying that bad events are a wake up call doesn't necessarily mean they are caused by God for that purpose, but they should remind us how fragile our existence is.

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 11:04 PM

Revolution,

I have been through alot of experiences and tragedies and even happy endings...it's not that every BAD thing has ever happened to me. I don't tell about things that have happened to me out of pity, I do it out of experience...you know that goes back to the whole wisdom and knowledge lecture we debated a while back?...that which is gained through personal experience. I do believe that some of the things I've been through was to teach me or others lessons and I do believe that GOD was trying to get a message across. There's no need to say "poor weezie" because I am in no way poor...in life or spirit. So, no matter how many times you waste your selfish attempts to drag me down with your words, it won't work. It won't change what has happened to me, or the fact that I will so gladly use these examples as a way of explaining things in my own opinion.

-- Posted by weezie84 on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 11:00 PM

Actually it was Mark 11:18-, not sure where you got Matthew

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 10:45 PM

Evil Monkey: I am confused now. If I continued continued to read from Matthew 21:25 I would not be reading from verse 18. In fact I don't see any reference to the Sadducees in that chapter at all. So I need more clarification. I do agree however that Jesus's words to the Pharisees are for all of us who get too self righteous.

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 10:34 PM

nascarfanatic: However, I noticed you put faith first. Like a car you have to have all the parts working together but something has to make the engine run - like fuel. My fuel is faith. At one time in my life it was reason. When reason failed I replaced it with faith - there's still some reason in the mixture just to keep me searching (reduce the knocks and pings) but so far I like the faith fuel better. I'm not denying science or human reason. I just think there is something greater and I choose to believe in it and that it supercedes both science and reason.

Christians do believe Jesus is a scapegoat. Its a Jewish concept.

The Christians I know don't blame God for bad things. Bad things are a consequence of evil in the world. But thats too deep a subject for this late at night.

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 10:28 PM

devan,

You did not continue to read the chapter, verses 18 onward, starting with Sadducees...

As you read Jesus says bluntly, YOU are wrong, you don't know the scriptures you have not read anything that rings of truth, so with your canonized "word of god", how can you know the entire truth if 80% of it is missing out of your current Bible?

Just cause the church says its all there doesn't mean it is true.

Devan,

Faith can only take you so far, but when you refuse to read the entire Bible you don't know the real truth. As for anyone that wants to argue your Faith with me, you may but do so will be futile. It seems you take the verse that I posted in a literally sense as it is talking to the past day Pharisees, the present day would be called fundamentalist Christians with their own narrow-minded view to prove righteousness to their fellow neighbors.

If you would read on, you will see more examples.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 9:57 PM

Oh, if only I could get my brain washed. Then maybe I could forget all the crap that it has absorbed reading these blogs.:)

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 8:58 PM

The only crap I read is the people who simply think faith will get them through life without any substantial amount of anything else... And those who would NEVER believe Jesus was just a fictional character, designed by "Christians" to save them from their eternal sin. Christians use Jesus as a scapegoat, and they blame god for causing atrocities. So, if Jesus served a purpose then was it to take God's place (because he essentially made the OLD TESTAMENT irrelevant) or what? I find it so funny that people believe that the greek gods are mystical and other forms of religion are all false teachings, when MOST if not ALL of them teach the EXACT same principles and beliefs, but they just use different name's to tell the "story."

Faith, HOPE, and LOVE... Faith alone is not enough.

-- Posted by nascarfanatic on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 9:12 PM

Sorry, wasn't talking about your last post. Just crap in general - from both sides of this discussion. He didn't quote that passage, but what I quoted from his post is very similar to this passage. Just need clarification.

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 9:11 PM

Oh, if only I could get my brain washed. Then maybe I could forget all the crap that it has absorbed reading these blogs.:)

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 8:58 PM

Quoted from Evil Monkey "He questioned the pharisees regarding what was from heaven or from men." Jesus was questioning the pharisees as to whether John's baptism was from heaven or men. I just don't think that qualifies as proof that Jesus said to question these things - whatever these thing are.

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 8:29 PM

Faith says its all there?? Are you that narrow-minded and naive? Jesus even stated for us to question these things. You would go against his teachings and worship the "Good Book" over the son of God? Isn't that idolatry?

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 3:45 PM

Actually that's two questions. Yes I am that narrow minded and naive. I suspect you would have seen right through me if I has said I was broad minded and sophisticated :). I worship the Son of God because of what is revealed about him in the Bible so no that is not idolatry.

Let's get serious. I do have doubts and find some of the Bible troubling. But I realize that we all "see through a glass darkly" and so we should have questions. However, when I focus on Jesus things become much clearer. I suppose we could prosper spiritually living just by the "red letters" in the Bible but I choose to think that all the rest give me a better understanding of the big picture. Unlike Michael I like to think that I live for Him because of the 99% chance that its true and count the 1% doubt a reason to keep searching.

So now indulge my ignorance and give me chapter and verse. Not Matthew 21:25 because he was not telling anyone to question anything he was asking a direct question and the pharisees didn't want to answer.

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 8:12 PM

Lime Green... all the way!

-- Posted by darrick_04 on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 8:07 PM

still picturing Jesus in that VW Bug, what color would it be? Yellow or Lime Green?

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 7:46 PM

Evil Monkey... VERY WELL STATED!!!

"If you don't know, then you don't know much about your canonized word of god. Jesus told his apostles to question everything. He questioned the pharisees regarding what was from heaven or from men. They couldn't answer him, just like no-one here can. So how dare anyone say I need to have FAITH in finding my dog, my fictious "soul" or my salvation when you cannot even prove within any reason that the bible is even what it claims."

I have FAITH that devan, weezie, tdc, or anyone else can answer a single question... As in other blogs, their only answer is "faith"... Apparently it isn't working very well, because their faith is so weak, it can't answer simple questions... From tornados, to being molested, to losing your dog, weezie has been through it all (good point Revolution)... and through it all she had faith that god was there, yet she agrees with Michael so often, the one who essentially says god causes all these atrocities to "wake people up and bring them to god..."

I have faith that I'll do well on an upcoming exam, but if I do nothing to prepare for it, that faith is all but worthless...

-- Posted by nascarfanatic on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 7:00 PM

Devan,

You didn't answer my question. Why should I answer yours, you have shown no reason for me to believe to "have faith" in anything you have faith in. So why should I waste my time?

If you don't know, then you don't know much about your canonized word of god. Jesus told his apostles to question everything. He questioned the pharisees regarding what was from heaven or from men. They couldn't answer him, just like no-one here can. So how dare anyone say I need to have FAITH in finding my dog, my fictious "soul" or my salvation when you cannot even prove within any reason that the bible is even what it claims.

Faith doesn't cut it, its a false sense of security. Please can anyone really think for themselves or do you just believe what you are told to believe. Anyone can go to a Bible Study and learn a few verses, but what do all those verses mean when you really think about it?

tdc,

no god didn't give me the ability to choose right from wrong, I know from experience that hitting something at 25 mph is going to hurt like heck. God didn't show me jack, my decisions are based on experience. Not the bible. Don't know of many cars in the bible. Or should I have faith that cars existed back then too? Oh if I have faith it must be true that Jesus drove a VW BUG!!!

Sounds pretty foolish for me to say that... doesn't it. Food for thought?

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 6:44 PM

evil monkey, god gave you the ability to choose whether or not you drive your suv under a tractor trailer or jump out of a plane without a chute!! Dont blame him if you make bad decisions!!

-- Posted by tdc on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 5:50 PM

Evil Monkey if Jesus stated to question these things, where did he state it. Must have been in the Bible. So you must have faith in that part at least. Tell me where he said it.

By the way, weezie's dog got its instincts from God.

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 4:06 PM

yeah.. you have complete trust in God? Ok... Jump out of a plane without a parachute. Drive a SUV under a tractor trailer. If you are delivered without damage, I will believe.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 3:59 PM

No, no...GOD kept my dog alive, ten miles away at that-across 231. It was my FAITH, not hope, that I knew she was still alive. I HOPED that I would find her again.

Just two different definitions of FAITH pulled from above-

~firm belief in something for which there is no proof

~complete trust

-- Posted by weezie84 on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 3:53 PM

weezie84,

So the dogs instinct kept it alive, not God.

When I am doing a bowel movement is it God pulling it out? No it is gravity and my internal reflexes.

How does faith fall into either one of these instances? Hope maybe.

devan,

How do you know? Does the Bible say that? Cause over 80% of it is missing.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 11:06 PM

Faith says its all there.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 3:45 PM

No one was around to prove that the things that are stated in the bible, to be true. It is the up to each individual to have enough faith to believe it so. The books of the bible are written by people who were around at the time of Christ, and some even before and after him. Granted, there are parts missing from the bible. Still, it's part of our history. I can't explain why dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the bible, anymore than as to where the dinosaurs went..but we have fossils to prove that they existed. Faith? You want a defintion of Faith...my dog was missing for 3 months.. Rutherford county just found her on the 17th in Bell Buckle. I never gave up hope on her, because I knew she was still alive..I don't have any facts to prove she was alive and well, it was only my faith.

-- Posted by weezie84 on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 3:06 PM

Many times faith cannot be validated or discredited by fact. If it is then it becomes fact not faith. The core of faith is the belief in the unseen, the unknown, and the unbelievable. I can assemble facts, and experiences, and other evidence to reassure the reasoning part of myself, but unless I choose to have faith beyond where these thing fail I am not a Christian (or a true follower of any other religon), I am just a scientist.

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 9:47 AM

Good points jesuslovesevery1, but I do have one question. If America (US) is the least Christian in its behavior, who ranks above us? From my view, the US in not alone in its abandonment of Christian principles. Its just under our nose more and it stinks.

-- Posted by devan on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 9:33 AM

Faith is a good thing, and facts either validate it or totally discredit it...

-- Posted by darrick_04 on Mon, Sep 24, 2007, at 7:56 AM

For scientists it takes faith to THINK you've found a cure... but it takes fact to PROVE it...

It is also FAITH that keeps those very same scientists at work, but it is the facts that make their work complete.

Same goes with any instance where faith is discredited or proven by fact.

-- Posted by nascarfanatic on Sun, Sep 23, 2007, at 9:17 PM

Only 40 percent of Americans can name more than four of the Ten Commandments, and a scant half can cite any of the four authors of the Gospels. Twelve percent believe Joan of Arc was Noah's wife. This failure to recall the specifics of our Christian heritage may be further evidence of our nation's educational decline, but it probably doesn't matter all that much in spiritual or political terms. Here is a statistic that does matter: Three quarters of Americans believe the Bible teaches that "God helps those who help themselves." That is, three out of four Americans believe that this uber-American idea, a notion at the core of our current individualist politics and culture, which was in fact uttered by Ben Franklin, actually appears in Holy Scripture. The thing is, not only is Franklin's wisdom not biblical; it's counter-biblical. Few ideas could be further from the gospel message, with its radical summons to love of neighbor. On this essential matter, most Americans--most American Christians--are simply wrong, as if 75 percent of American scientists believed that Newton proved gravity causes apples to fly up.

Asking Christians what Christ taught isn't a trick. When we say we are a Christian nation--and, overwhelmingly, we do--it means something. People who go to church absorb lessons there and make real decisions based on those lessons; increasingly, these lessons inform their politics. (One poll found that 11 percent of U.S. churchgoers were urged by their clergy to vote in a particular way in the 2004 election, up from 6 percent in 2000.) When George Bush says that Jesus Christ is his favorite philosopher, he may or may not be sincere, but he is reflecting the sincere beliefs of the vast majority of Americans.

And therein is the paradox. America is simultaneously the most professedly Christian of the developed nations and the least Christian in its behavior. That paradox--more important, perhaps, than the much touted ability of French women to stay thin on a diet of chocolate and cheese--illuminates the hollow at the core of our boastful, careening culture.

-- Posted by jesuslovesevery1 on Sun, Sep 23, 2007, at 8:59 PM

Oh I don't have all day, I'll do it for you:

~allegiance to duty or a person

~fidelity to one's promises

~sincerity of intentions

~belief and trust in and loyalty to God ~ belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion

~firm belief in something for which there is no proof

~complete trust

~something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

...AND? I'm glad I have a dictionary, because the Bible sure didn't tell me all that...

-- Posted by nascarfanatic on Sun, Sep 23, 2007, at 8:53 PM

Weezie, thanks for your definitions.. I had NO IDEA what "fact" meant..

Now define "faith"...

-- Posted by nascarfanatic on Sun, Sep 23, 2007, at 8:46 PM

FACT:

-a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred;

-a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened;

-an event known to have happened or something known to have existed;

-a concept whose truth can be proved;

with that said, the statements in the bible, are indeed, facts. Just because we were not around at the time of these incidents does not mean that it did not happen. it takes a little bit of faith to know that these things did happen. just because the bible or many other people, for that matter, are not able to answer every question there is when it comes to the bible, GOD, and a majority of the religions today, doesn't mean that it isn't real or it doesn't exist.

-- Posted by weezie84 on Sun, Sep 23, 2007, at 8:09 PM

nascarfanatic: Now we have a dialog. I too believe that men wrote the Bible. I just believe that it was written by divine guidance and is therefore sufficient for our guidance in knowing God - "the god of the Bible". I understand you have issues with some parts of the Bible. Give me some examples.

Yes! Compassion, love, mercy and the Bible teaches these things. So, if we don't trust in the Bible, how do we know God?

If your last statement means you believe there is more to God's revelation than just the Bible I wouldn't disagree, and the problem of the status of people who have never read the Bible is a mystery to me also.

The book of Romans, Chapter 1 :

Rom 1:14 For I have an obligation to all peoples, to the civilized and to the savage, to the educated and to the ignorant.

Rom 1:15 So then, I am eager to preach the Good News to you also who live in Rome.

Rom 1:16 I have complete confidence in the gospel; it is God's power to save all who believe, first the Jews and also the Gentiles.

Rom 1:17 For the gospel reveals how God puts people right with himself: it is through faith from beginning to end. As the scripture says, "The person who is put right with God through faith shall live."

Rom 1:18 God's anger is revealed from heaven against all the sin and evil of the people whose evil ways prevent the truth from being known.

Rom 1:19 God punishes them, because what can be known about God is plain to them, for God himself made it plain.

Rom 1:20 Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all!

My own belief is that God has made special provision for those who are unreached by the Gospel. But as far as I know all people (with the exception of civilized athetists) recognize some sort of divine being. As a Christian my responsibility is to spread the Gospel - and by spread I mean only to make it available. No force, no trickery, no bribery. Once a person hears the word then they have the responsibility to accept or reject.

-- Posted by devan on Sun, Sep 23, 2007, at 4:55 PM

I have FAITH in god.. But FAITH IS NOT ALL IT TAKES... You can believe in god, and understand that at the same time MEN wrote the Bible... So I'd be extremely careful when saying you have faith in GOD, instead of MAN...

You have faith that MAN wrote what GOD wanted them too.. And I simply have faith that GOD didn't tell MAN to twist and turn every law and scripture to fit their need... THAT is where our roads diverge.. God is a wonderful and amazing spiritual force in providing guidance, love, compassion and mercy... among all other things in life. But I don't think that "The Greatest Story ever Told" (the Bible) is God's word. If it were ALL is word, then "God's People" would know it, and I don't think he would leave them out of the book that was written for them!

-- Posted by nascarfanatic on Sun, Sep 23, 2007, at 4:05 PM

nascarfanatic: I do think the Bible says exactly what God wants it to. I have faith in God, you have faith in man. That's where our roads diverge.

We all have to live in the physical world so clocks and principles to raise our children by are essential. Faith in (fill in the blank) is what guides us to make decisions and choose alternatives. My faith is in (God)when you fill in your blank I hope it give you the same peace that I have in God.

-- Posted by devan on Sun, Sep 23, 2007, at 2:53 PM

"mmp84: You obviously miss my point. My faith leads me to believe that the Bible contains just want God wants it to. Man is not in charge of God's word and has no ability to affect it except as God wills."

Posted by devan on Sat, Sep 22, 2007, at 9:29 PM

HOW can you blindly say that when MAN obviously wrote a majority of the book... and MAN decided to LEAVE OUT 80% of the entire Bible... MAN decided to translate, and RETRANSLATE, again and again and again.. You should REALLY research "King James" and understand that he had THOUSANDS of people working for him to change the "Bible" to fit his times and justify his thoughts... I don't think the Bible says exactly what "God" wants it to...

BTW: When is the last time god spoke to you or anyone else you know and told you to go write a few scriptures, ver batim his teachings, without adding in your OWN thoughts...

Humans are not perfect, and they can not write with prejudices of some sort (including me)... So you thinking "faith" is all it needs to understand life and get through it is amazing to me.... If you think faith is all it takes, then get rid of all your clocks, don't plan for anything, and most definitely stop taking action to raise your children (if you have any)... Because I am sure that without your clocks telling you what time of day it is, faith can get you where you need to be on time, and without planning for things, you can expect faith to let it all fall into place, and you can also let faith alone raise your children or pay your bills... I guarantee you most millionaires and slums have two things in common: FAITH (in something) and ACTION ... The difference is that faith lead them to two different outcomes or was it their actions? ... and THAT is fact.

-- Posted by nascarfanatic on Sun, Sep 23, 2007, at 10:00 AM

Devan,

I agree with you. It's about faith that there is a God, he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins and that one day Jesus will return. The books in the Bible tell me all I need to know.

For the sake of argument, let's say there are several books that are missing. Unless, the other books say "Just kidding" or "Don't listen to those other guys because they're nuts", it doesn't matter what they say. They would be nice to read...but there is a huge chance that they just say the same thing the other books say.

John 3:16 KEY WORD - Believeth

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-- Posted by saveit on Sat, Sep 22, 2007, at 9:37 PM

Evil Monkey: Faith is my personal belief in God and his provision. It does not judge. But if you are worried about Hell I could recommend a Good Book.

mmp84: You obviously miss my point. My faith leads me to believe that the Bible contains just want God wants it to. Man is not in charge of God's word and has no ability to affect it except as God wills.

-- Posted by devan on Sat, Sep 22, 2007, at 9:29 PM

Devan,

Man transcribed it over and over.....

I should say mis-transcribed.

Man decided to leave out several books that should be in the Bible.

-- Posted by mmp84 on Sat, Sep 22, 2007, at 7:50 PM

Faith in what? That I am going to Hell? Isn't that defined as Fear Mongering? isn't that a sin?

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Sat, Sep 22, 2007, at 2:50 PM

devan,

How do you know? Does the Bible say that? Cause over 80% of it is missing.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 11:06 PM

Faith says its all there.

-- Posted by devan on Sat, Sep 22, 2007, at 10:12 AM

devan,

How do you know? Does the Bible say that? Cause over 80% of it is missing.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 11:06 PM

I think the principle of faith is misunderstood when it comes to the Bible. If I have faith in an all knowing all powerful God then I would fully expect that he has the power to deliver his word to his creation in the form that is his will at any time in history regardless of man's attempts to change it. I don't understand the process I just have faith that God delivers on his promises. By the way Evil Monkey, once we are in Heaven or Hell I don't think there's any cross overs allowed.

-- Posted by devan on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 3:45 PM

I suppose. Unless you really are an evil monkey......*insert spy themed music* =)

-- Posted by LauraSFT on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 3:11 PM

LauraSFT,

My name is Evil Monkey, that would have been a gimmee.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 12:30 PM

EM, you know some ppl are just far too serious. Just makin sure that you weren't one of those ppl.

-- Posted by LauraSFT on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 11:14 AM

why is the question, "do you believe that "jesus christ" is The Messiah?", needs be asked?

simply because the name "jesus christ" was given to one-head of a three-headed pagan "god" about 500 years ago by a religious system that calls itself "christianity" and "christianity" is Anti-Messiah!

sadly, because of "catholicism" and her "christian" daughters, and they include mormoms, jw's, pentecostal,.etc., sadly because of them "The Way of Truth is evil spoken of" ;-(

yet while there is breath(spirit) there is hope!

for Miracles do happen!

hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving "a love of The Truth" and will then take heed unto The Call of The Only True Elohim(GOD)to "Come out of her, MY people"!

peace, in spite of the dis-ease(religion) that is of this wicked world for "the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one"....... ElderChild(yoodaw@hotmail.com)

-- Posted by ElderChild on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 11:05 AM

LauraSFT,

I love to joke, see my previous comments. I don't get offended as I don't have any beliefs, including political. If I wanted the perfect candidate I would run myself.

Stolen25,

Thank you for your opinion and I appreciate that some people don't get offended as that is not my intention. Basically I been a Baptist, Presbytrian, Mennonite, Seventh Day Adventist, and a Jehovah's Witness. And I can't agree with any of them. Actually, the last one is about the most clearheaded one of the bunch.

EM, over and out.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 10:47 AM

What I find extremely interesting is that in a previous blog Michael states that we no longer live by the "laws" of the old testament, yet that is testament is the very thing that he preaches to defend his religion. You can't have it both ways, either it is relevant or it isn't. END OF STORY.

You can't say "Oh those laws are outdated, but wait, these parts are still true"

and Evil Monkey, I find myself liking you and agreeing with you more and more each day, actually an intelligent human being not afraid to express his disbelief in things. What a wonderful concept. Glad to see you aren't one of the "controlled Sheeple"

-- Posted by stolen25 on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 9:41 AM

So is Heaven nice EvilMonkey? Sounds like you have been there. Just a joke, don't take it too seriously!

-- Posted by LauraSFT on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 9:37 AM

The Bible is pretty flawed especially since it is missing over 80% of the books that were originally in it... hard to trust something that is clearly broken.

That's like me believing I am going to drive my car down I-24 with 1 wheel, no steering wheel, brakes and a pray. Do you think God would save me then? Hell no he won't because I didn't have a complete car. Same rule applies.

It's kind of like this... What if I got to heaven and you go to hell. because of my deep compassion, I see you being tormented in hell and I cry out to Jesus and God asking him to bring you up from Hell. Do you think he would let you continue to be tormented? No, he would see my compassion and let you come to heaven.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 9:14 AM

I BELIEVE IN GOD AND HAVE FAITH BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN BE SAVED BY FAITH ONLY- YOU MUST BE BAPTIZED FULLY INTO WATER AND CONFESS YOUR SINS. HEAR, BELIEVE, REPENT, CONFESS, BE BAPTIZED ARE THE STEPS TO SALVATION.

-- Posted by jssg1975 on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 8:46 AM

Yes evil monkey, faith-based beliefs, not fact-based beliefs.

There was an interesting article in The Rutherford Reader this month by David Grubbs, MTSU Professor of Political Science Emeritus, explaining how science MUST PROVE itself while Christianity does not have to prove itself. You either believe it, take it on faith, or not.

I don't see how trusting what the Bible says is bad although there are plenty of mis-interpretations.

JMO

Oh, and here is a shout out to Weezie I think was your handle. Where are ya girl? Miss ya on here.

-- Posted by mmp84 on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 8:36 AM

In a way, all facts are notions that are believed to be true so in a way that makes them beliefs too.

-- Posted by jaxspike on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 8:22 AM

Those aren't facts, they are beliefs, Two totally separate things.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 8:01 AM

Those are his facts, those are what he lives by. If you don't want to accept it, don't. Simple as that.

-- Posted by LauraSFT on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 7:37 AM

How are those facts? It is the Bible, that isn't the most factual based book whatsoever... There are many (over 500) books of the Bible that have been removed during the 4th Century AD Ruling of Emperor Constantine.

Then in 1885, 15 addtional books (the Apocrypha) were removed from the King James Bible by the ArchBishop of Canterbury.

The books of the New Testament were not chosen by God....They were chosen by a servant of Constantine whose motive was to control his people.

I could go on and on, but it seems the "WORD OF GOD" is merely a tool used by the church to control their Sheeple.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Fri, Sep 21, 2007, at 12:59 AM