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Things to watch for!
Posted Tuesday, March 4, 2008, at 5:43 PM<< Previous | Read comments | Respond | Email link | Next >>
http://onenewsnow.com/Election2008/Defau...
It might not be rampant yet but it is on the way.
Seems to be fitting that the Showdown will be in the great state of Texas between Clinton and Obama for their parties nomination, poor party.
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Election2008/D...
Seems like some people got offended when John McCain accepted the support of Pastor Hagee all John did was tell the truth Thee catholic church did nothing to stop Hitler from committing the Holocaust against the Jews .
What will the church do this time when Israel is attacked Iran and all their cutthroat terrorist.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/...
All I am trying to get out is the views on the issues for the Christian's who might not know. Comments Showing most recent comments first [Show in chronological order instead] |
Hot topics The Army of Christ(86 ~ 9:36 PM, Oct 15)
A Touchy Subject for Some
Unbelievable
Crossroads 08
Light for the Dark Times Ahead.
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AMEN!!
I don't usually respond much to religious blogs but I am bored and it's cold outside :>)
I do believe in God, the higher power, our creator. I believe he in lives in our hearts and our soul not in churches or religions. Although I do not believe the Bible was written by the hand of God but by the hand of many men. I think the old testament is parables, stories that teach us lessons in life. I do not think that they were ever meant to be taken as facts.
I was brought up in the Church of Christ, the same church that believes a musical instrument in the church is against God's will because of one verse in the Bible "Sing and make melody in your hearts" well I discovered later in life I can sing and make melody in my heart with a radio.
Just about every Religion out there use the same Bible, don't you find it amazing that every religion is so different, when we are all using the same book of rules?
Why would God make his book so Difficult to understand if it was his will for us to follow it?
I honestly believe God is a fair and understanding God, he knows we are imperfect.
I believe God is different things to different people, some people need more spiritual guidance than others..for those, there is the Bible.
No one religion is any better than another as long as you truly believe in your heart that what you are doing is right and you live the very best you can possibly live, then you are doing what God expects of you.
I am by no means telling you that should believe the same things as I do nor should I be told to believe the same things as you.
God gave us Free Will and a Brain for a reason, he gave them to us to think outside the box.
darrick,
i checked out about half of your so called contradictions and i just dont see it. i havent found any contradictions unless you take the particular verses out of context and not read everything. i wonder if you are just looking at a website and copying someone elses material and trying to make it stand out as your own, because you sure couldnt have studied the bible and came up with that.
Darrick,
How many mission trips, local or in another county have you been on? Have you spoken with anyone in your church to see what you could help with locally to improve your stewardship, or are you just sitting in the pew doing nothing? Yes there is a lot of bureaucracy in our churches. Churches are filled with the same people that are in the world around you and I have not meet a perfect person yet. What you are talking about is Christian Action and it is taking place all around you. Good people (non-christians) can do good things, but it is amazing what can happen when we allow the Holy Spirit to direct our actions. Christian action takes place when we do some simple things such as sending a card of support to someone, taking a meal to a family in a time a sickness, or the larger events such a providing people with a house to live in when all they have is a shack or being there to provide food or shelter after a natural disaster stricks. My varied "religious" upbringing did not talk much about the Holy Spirt, and to be honest, I really didn't think much about it. I have learned and seen things occur in my adult life that could not have taken place without the Holy Spirit being involved. You are very correct when you say religion is not the important thing in life. Religion is bound by rules and regulations, Christianity is bound by the 2 way relationship we have we God. It is the only "religion" that have that relationship, which is why Christianity is not a religion but a relationship.
I'm not trying to disprove Christianity Sharon. Just pointing out the astronomical amount of incosistencies, contradictions, and complete and utter impossiblities within it.
If I had to choose a religions, that's what I'd choose. But religions isn't the important thing in life. All religions are mired in controversies and opinion. When Christians themselves have over 30,000 denominations, it just tells me the glue holding the bond together isn't as strong as it seems on the surface. That's why I am a rational person, who has an open mind. I don't read anything full force without, first questioning the authenticity, the time period, and whether or not these people were true eye witnesses. I don't seek to end Christianity, I seek to break it down to what it is supposed to be about, get rid of all the red tape [bureaucracy] involved. If we were truly concerned about being good stewards then every church needs to get out of a building and start DOING. Mine, included. I can't tell you the last time we had all the solutions necessary to take care of all the world's problem, one major ingredient was missing, however, the willingness to prove your actions speak louder than words.
Darrick,
If it seems as if I keep pushing you for answers, I am. I want to to keep questioning. One of my favorite modern day writers is Josh McDowell. He sounded a lot like you do now when he was in his college years. He stated he believed in God, but had lots of questions about Christianity,religion and the Bible. In fact, started to write a book to disprove Christianity. Know what, he ended up becoming a Christian. He has written several books now and has researched many of the questions you have asked. I'm willing to keep an open mind, if you are willing to check this fellow out.
If you are interested here's a link to his web site:
http://www.josh.org/index.asp
Keep searching and asking questions Darrcick.
The link I posted is "The Skeptics Annotated Bible Corrected and Explained" http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.org/ and is a rebuttal to the "Skeptics Annotated Bible" http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/.
-- Posted by devan on Fri, Mar 7, 2008, at 10:51 PM
The only rebuttal you should need is the Bible, itself. But since it works against itself, there isn't much use for that one.
I bet the different books were written over a long period of time; and that some of the contradictions in the bible, are applied to different generations that came along. That the rules of the bible may applied to ones forefathers, but the generations after their forefathers lived differently, so the rules that were applied to them by God were different and directed to only their generation, nationality, tribe, etc. I also think that some of the contradictions of how some things happened or took place, were of errors of the author that wrote the books (Not perfect). I believe that some authors may not be able to express on paper what they are trying to tell, Just like we can post something on the blogs, and others can interpet it one way and others another. And perhaps the authors interpet what they get wrong, and put it in the books. And their also may have been some false prophets, kings, or who ever, back then that may have had their hands in the removal, or addition of the books or versus of the bible for personal gain.
The link I posted is "The Skeptics Annotated Bible Corrected and Explained" http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.org/ and is a rebuttal to the "Skeptics Annotated Bible" http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/.
That's kinda what I was expecting to hear...
Devan and Darrick
Just double checking, are you both using the same web site?
P.S. I'm glad I live under grace and not under the law, way too many rules and regulations. You know something though, if we lived under the law, someone could start a business to raise animals for all the sacrifices they had to do back before Christ offered himself as the ultimate sacrifice.
Goodnight. Unfortunately, I have to work at 7 in the morning, that is IF I can get out of the driveway... LOL...
Hmm... Didn't devan mention the site? Can you not dodge the question about all those verses you, I, and the majority of American's don't adhere to anymore? If you see those as "null and void" in today's society, then what makes any of the rest applicable? Honestly.
There are a lot of sites that do address these contradictions "for free" I just found this one interesting because it was a take off on the "Skeptics Annotated Bible".
For example: Are Old Testament laws still binding? 17:19 No, not in the sense of Levitical law. The covenant referred to is the relationship between God and Abraham's descendants and doesn't have anything to do with specific laws.
Did Adam die on the day he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? 2:17, 3:6, 5:5 No he didn't but on the day that he ate he became subject to death. The result - Genesis 5:5.
Darrick,
Previenent Grace is what has you asking all the questions you are asking. Prevenient grace is God wooing us into his presence. You are not the only one receiving it, we all receive it at different times in our lives, depending on where we are in our relationship with God and how we are letting the Holy Spirit work in our lives.
By the way, where is my web site to look at?
LET'S MOVE ON!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think its unusual for people to get paid for the work they do.
-- Posted by devan on Fri, Mar 7, 2008, at 10:23 PM
All those "secular sites" don't charge for the information.
Hey Sharon, thanks for not addressing every verse I posted earlier :) Preveniant grace has nothing to do with this. If exposing the truth is preveniant grace, then why am I the only one receieving it?
Hmmmm....Devan, so you sent me to a website where I have to PAY to read the corrections? Leave it to Christians to try and make a buck on explaining how the bible is correct lol
-- Posted by Disturbia on Fri, Mar 7, 2008, at 10:13 PM
I don't think its unusual for people to get paid for the work they do.
Devan, your link does not work. I even copied and pasted it into my own browser... To no avail :( what am I doing wrong here?
-- Posted by nascarfanatic on Fri, Mar 7, 2008, at 10:11 PM
Don't know I went back to my original post and it works fine.
I suspect that if you or I was dropped into the time when Leviticus was written it wouldn't make sense being there either, but it was intended for that specific time and place and for those living then it probably didn't seem that strange. I don't know of any Christian that thinks they are still under Levitical law.
Darrick,
I think it you look back, I have not singled out any of the verses mentioned, but I think I will now.
Leviticus Chapter 18 the entire chapter refers to unlawful sexual relations, including not having relations with your blood relatives, your inlaws and animals. Leviticus Chapter 20 follows up on that and gives the punishment, most of which is punishment by death. All of these verses can be looked at as denouncing a certain "lifestyle" and are pretty firm on what sexual relations should be avoided. What proof do you have that people were barbaric in those days? History books that were written at a later time from heresay? Since Leviticus gives the "rules" for the Hebrew children after they left Egypt, I guess the Egyptians that built the pyramids must have been barbarians. Darrick keep trying and keep searching, God's prevenient grace is still working.
Hmmmm....Devan, so you sent me to a website where I have to PAY to read the corrections? Leave it to Christians to try and make a buck on explaining how the bible is correct lol
Devan, your link does not work. I even copied and pasted it into my own browser... To no avail :( what am I doing wrong here?
If you're so sure of the Bible, you needn't search for man-made websites to solidify it. Your trust and faith is in the Bible. So just read it, closely. Tell me exactly how much sense Leviticus makes when you're done.
Besides I don't think you actually looked at the link I posted because it is not the "Skeptics Annotated Bible" it is "The Skeptics Annotated Bible Corrected and Explained"
If one of them can be picked apart then it should raise the doubt that the rest can too. I guess I'm just skeptical about skeptics.
Hey greasmonkey just because darrick or anyone else claims these are contradictions doesn't mean they are.-- Posted by devan on Fri, Mar 7, 2008, at 9:48 PM
Darrick doesn't say they are. That Bible you cling do proves it. The site you reference, uses verses exactly as they are written. When the scriptures themselves don't correlate, what else can you do? I hate that the Bible has been torn to shreads by rulers, emperors, and evil people throughout time. But how in the world can anyone who claims to advocate truth, flatout deny it?
After all, if their are certain parts of the Bible I can't believe than I can't believe any of it.
-- Posted by Sharon22 on Fri, Mar 7, 2008, at 9:35 PM
Kinda my point. Here is an interesting point. EVERY single one of us on here, interpret EVERY verse differently. What in the world assures that people just all agreed in such harmony then? People were barbaric in those days. My only problem is, not a single one of you had anything to say about the rest of those verses in Leviticus. Why? Because it comes "straight" from the Bible. You choose to disregard nearly every sinlge verse I pointed, but jump on board when it denounces a "lifestyle"...
Wow, thanks devan.. Skeptics must use the same site that I posted from. You always chime in, just to make one of the points irrelevant. Hmm, there are still 300+ you can't pick apart.
Hey greasmonkey just because darrick or anyone else claims these are contradictions doesn't mean they are. I think I may have to check out the book referenced at this web site. Its supposed to answer most of the claims. I have seen most of them answered elsewhere but don't have the time to look up and respond to each one. For an example re: the sons of Benjamin: They were the grandsons of Benjamin. The Hebrew word for "son" also means descendant. It is commonly used to designate a lineage and not always used to refer to a literal son.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.org/
WOW, A LINK WOULD HAVE BEEN EASIER, LOL. I PROMISE I WOULD HAVE READ IT. I CANT COMMENT RIGHT NOW BUT I WILL LOOK AT IT AND I WILL EITHER AGREE WITH YOU OR HAVE AN ANSWER. I JUST ASK THAT YOU GIVE ME A DAY OR SO.
Darrick thanks for that blog..that got me curious and I found the contradictions for Revelation..so it's from beginning to end and everywhere in between...
Is Salvation by faith alone? 2:23, 20:12-13, 22:14
What must you do to be saved? 2:23, 14:3-4,, 14:12, 20:12-13, 22:14
What were the 12 tribes of Israel? 7:6
Is it OK to take oaths? 10:5-6
Is God's will always done in heaven? 12:7
Should we fear God? 14:7, 15:4
Is only God holy? 15:4
Can God do anything? 19:6
Is Jesus peaceful? 19:11
Does Jesus judge others? 19:11
Is death final? 20:12-13
What's new? 21:1
Will the earth last forever? 21:1
Is it wrong to lie? 21:8, 21:27
Was Joseph the father of Jesus? 22:16
I guess than we can't believe any of our history books, after all, most were not written at the same time history occurred. In fact, most of the history books used in my schools were written in the 20th century, based on heresay from other people from other decades.
I would like to see the link that you mentioned above, it would be interesting to check out.
Darrick, like I said before, God's Prevenient Grace is working, keep searching. After all, if their are certain parts of the Bible I can't believe than I can't believe any of it.
JESUS DIED AND JESUS LIVES !
NO MISTAKE YOU CAN BET ON THAT!
To me it is much harder to believe that those who were eyewitnesses to such great events did not leave accurate accounts. Just because the Gospels that we have were written at a later date does not mean the basis of their accounts were not accurate.
greasemonkey... I apologize for this taking up SOOO much room on the blog, but you asked for it... If I give you a link, I won't know if actually read them. But, if I post them here, you can take your own Bible and read this yourself, just to prove or disprove the contradictions.. I have just posted the ones from Genesis. There are 71 from this book alone.
Genesis
The two contradictory creation accounts. 1:1-2:3, 2:4-25
How long did creation take? 1:3-2:3, 2:4
Were plants created before or after humans? 1:11, 2:4-7
When were the stars made? 1:16-19
From what were the fowls created? 1:20-21
Were humans created before or after the other animals? 1:25-26, 2:7, 2:18-22
How many gods are there? 1:26, 3:22, 11:7
When was Eve created? 1:27, 2:20-22
Is childbearing sinful? 1:28
May Adam eat from any tree? 1:29, 2:17
Did Adam die on the day he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? 2:17, 3:6, 5:5
Is marriage a good thing? 2:18
Doe God have a body? 3:8
Does God know and see everything? 3:8, 4:14, 4:16, 11:5, 18:9, 18:17, 18:20-21, 22:12, 32:27
Is everyone descended from Adam and Eve? 3:20
Does God respect anyone? 4:4
Does God desire animal sacrifices? 4:4, 8:20-21, 15:9-10
What became of Cain? 4:12
Was Enoch the sixth or seventh from Adam? 5:3-18
Does everyone die? 5:24
Has anyone ever ascended into heaven? 5:24
How many sons did God have? 6:2
What is the human lifespan? 6:3
Does God repent? 6:6-7
Has there ever been a perfect person? 6:9
Has there ever been a just person? 6:9
Has there ever been a righteous person? 7:1
When did Noah enter the ark? 7:7-10, 7:11-13
How many animals of each kind did Noah take into the ark? 6:19-20, 7:2-3, 7:8-9, 7:15
How long did the flood last? 7:17, 7:24, 8:3
Did everyone die in the flood? 7:21-23
How long was the ark afloat? 8:4, 8:5
When did the earth dry after the flood? 8:13, 14
Will God curse the earth? 8:21
What kind of animals may we eat? 9:3
Are we punished for the sins of others? 9:20-25, 20:18
How many languages were there before the Tower of Babel was built? 10:5, 20, 31, 11:1
Who was the father of Salah? 10:24, 11:12
How old was Abraham when he left Haran? 11:26, 11:32, 12:4
Is God the author of confusion? 11:7
How old was Abram when Ishmael was born? 11:26, 11:32, 16:16
Can God be seen? 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 26:24, 32:30, 35:1, 35:7, 35:9
How long was the Egyptian Captivity? 15:13
How many sons did Abraham have? 16:15, 22:2, 22:12, 25:2
Is circumcision required? 17:7, 17:10, 17:13, 17:19
Is incest forbidden? 17:16, 20:12
Are Old Testament laws still binding? 17:19
How old was Ishmael when he was abandoned by Abraham? 17:25, 21:14-18
Did Sarah have faith that she would conceive? 18:10-15
Is anything too hard for the Lord? 18:14
Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? 19:13, 19:24
Did Lot's daughters think God had killed every man except Lot? 19:21-22, 30, 31
Is it OK to take oaths? 21:23-24, 24:2, 9, 31:53, 47:31
Who named Beersheba? 21:31, 26:33
Does God tempt people? 22:2
Does God approve of human sacrifices? 22:2-13
Did Abraham know God's name? 22:14
Was Keturah Abraham's wife or concubine? 25:1
Will there be many Jews? 26:4
Who was Bashemath's father? 26:34, 36:2-3
Who was Laban's father? 28:5, 29:5
Who was Anah? 36:2, 36:14, 36:20, 36:24
Who was Korah's father? 36:14, 15-16
Who brought Joseph into Egypt? 37:28, 37:36, 39:1
How old was Benjamin when his clan migrated to Egypt? 44:20, 22
Was Mahli the son of Levi? 46:11
Who were the sons of Benjamin? 46:21
Were Naaman and Ard the sons or the grandsons of Benjamin? 46:21
How many were in Jacob's family when they came into Egypt? 47:27
What were the twelve tribes of Israel? 49:3-27
Where was Jacob buried? 50:13
As I said, sorry for taking up so much of the space on the blog, but when you ask for evidence, I gladly provide it.
The evangelists [Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John] were fiction-writers -- not observers or eyewitnesses of the life of Jesus. Each of the four contradicts the other. NONE of them wrote ANYTHING down during the life of Jesus... It was all pure recollection, and interpretation of foretold events... In today's society we call that heresay, but for some reason, it was completely acceptable when the Bible was being pieced together.
Devan,
Thank you for that answer as I was wondering that myself.
Actually, I think some people have been taking the Da Vinci Code and such as gospel instead of the real thing. Most of the canon of scripture was agreed upon long before Constantine came on the scene. Those texts that didn't make it were not included because they had been discredited as not authentic by people who lived closer to the time of Christ than the Council of Nicea
DARRICK_04,
YOU MAY HAVE ALREADY LISTED IT IN A PREVIOUS BLOG, BUT WHAT 300+ CONTRADICTIONS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. I WOULD LIKE TO LOOK FURTHER INTO IT. AS FAR AS THE BOOKS REMOVED FROM THE BIBLE, THE APPOCRAPHA ARE STILL IN SOME BIBLES, MOST NOTABLY IN SOME CATHOLIC BIBLES. THE BOOKS REMOVED UNDER CONSTANTINES RULE WERE REMOVED FOR VARYING REASON, IM SURE SOME OF THEM WERE REMOVED TO SUIT THE EMPERORS TASTE. THE MAJORITY OF THEM WERE REMOVED BECAUSE THEY WERE WRITTEN BY SOMEBODY THAT HEARD FROM SOMEBODY THAT HEARD FROM SOMEBODY, THAT KIND OF THING. ONE MAN SHOULDNT HAVE HAD THAT KIND OF POWER TO BASICALLY SHAPE A RELIGIONS SACRED SCRIPTURE. IT SUCKS THAT THE BIBLE HAS BEEN TREATED LIKE A POLITICAL TOOL, BUT I BELIEVE GODS MAIN POINT HAS STILL PERSEVERED, BECAUSE WE STILL HAD A MAN DIE FOR OUR SINS.
Thanks,grannyapple! Those are wise and VERY welcome words.
We're all works in regress-er progress.
We aren't asked to perform ahead of our current level of development.
We are asked to keep growing and hit God's supply of grace when our own inventory runs low.
Look at the protagonists of the Bible.
They did great work for God one minute and messed up royally the next.
They could not be defined by one act-except the decision to love and serve God.
Like them,we see through a glass darkly.
Most of us are also trying to see around a cord or two of our own imperfection to glimpse each other's flaws.
(Just because our vision is impaired doesn't mean we aren't ever right about what we detect.)
Sometimes,even when God tries to treat our areas of blindness,we start out by seeing "men walking like trees" (a la Birnam wood in that Scottish play) and finally view the people before us with compassionate clarity.
So,we need to have patience with our current infirmities of spirit and perspective.
Like a whisper to silence or light to darkness,a hint of God's presence can overcome the voids remaining within our spirits.
Yeah Michael...too bad you don't practice what grannyapple preaches. You know the whole, GOD LOVES EACH AND EVERYONE OF US thing. And the not judging thing, you are a PRO at that one.
Amen ! grannyapple
I find all of your comments quite interesting and strangely enough the Holy Spirit is working for all of you because you are seeking and questioning his word. Remember it is not what is in the heart of others that truly matters, it is what is in your own heart. If you love God, you will find a way to make his word work for you. God loves each and every one of us, even when we are not always perfect. It is not for us to decide what one should believe, but he did tell us not to judge others for we will be judged more harshly if we do. We might all take this into consideration when we think of whose sin is greater! Have a blessed day y'all.
Very, Very true quantumcat. I think that would be the Holy Spirit at work and prevenient grace.
Sharon22,
The Bible,as we know it, might be the best way to know God but it's not the only way He can reach us.
Even people who have no access to His words (intact and unadulterated or not) still have access to His Word.
He can reach into our minds and hearts through who and what He has made or just by His own will.
We are then free to respond to Him as we choose.
I think this connection can help us filter what we read and hear and better recognize truth-wherever we might encounter it.
Some people could have scriptures pounded into them 24/7 and never see the Lord in them.
Another could,like William Blake,manage
"To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour."
We can enjoy all that is good within Holy Writ yet relish that knowledge of Him is not confined to one place or one audience.
On the issue of inerrancy,it has been asked: "Is the Bible the word of God or does it contain the word of God?"
The King James Bible didn't come out until the 17th century.
The Logos was around before time and space.
So,while the Bible (even as Man misuses it) may have God's wisdom in it,the Word cannot be contained.
We can find him anywhere we wish-and, when we're lost,He comes and finds us.
I like to look at the Bible this way. It's the story of God's grace from the beginning to the end, Genesis to Revelation. The Old Testament tells us of God's relationship with the Hebrews. When you read it as a whole, how they prospered when they followed his "rules and regulations" and what happened when they didn't. The New Testament tells of Jesus's life and what he taught, but most importantly his dying on the cross for all our sins, something he chose to do. It also tells of the struggles of early christianity and how to deal with issues that arouse. Do the 2 books contradict each other, no, they compliment each other. I am not questioning your belief in God and I want you to keep seeking the truth. I don't think we are that far apart on the Bible, but we are looking at it from different angles. I find the more I study the Bible the more exciting I find it and the more I learn of God's grace. I know that over the years people have used the Bible to serve their own purposes, but until proved otherwise it's what I have right now.
How do I know that God knows? I believe it's because he sent scholars to study his word patriotically and since they have been doing so, many more discrepencies have been depicted. Word's have been notably mistranslated, and like EM said, tons of books have been "deleted". How can you you or I get an accurate reading if not all the books are there? It's like trying to make biscuits without the flour... Doesn't work.
Well just because you "personally do not believe there are 300+ contradictions" doesn't mean that isn't the case. There are. I vehemently believe in God, which is why I read it with an open-mind. I don't pretend to know more than anyone else, but I do like to point out when they highlight one verse, and conveniently forget the rest of the book.... You'll understand, my questions do not come from resentment or hatred, they come from seeking the truth. That's what every person who believes in God should want. Sometimes the truth isnt' what you've always thought.
He knows his word has been twisted and manipulated time and time again.
Posted by darrick_04 on Thu, Mar 6, 2008, at 10:53 PM
Darrick,
You still did not answer the question. How do you know that God knows? Did he tell you?
I personally do not believe that there are 300+ contradictions to the Bible. I do believe that the Bible has been manipulated over the centuries to serve whatever purpose man wants it to serve, which is what both sides of this debate is doing. Keep digging in his word Darrick, God's previenent grace might sink in yet.
At issue is not whether we should question God, but in what manner--and for what reason--we question Him. To question God is not in itself wrong. The prophet Habakkuk had questions for God concerning the timing and agency of the Lord's plan. Habakkuk, rather than being rebuked for his questions, is patiently answered, and the prophet ends his book with a song of praise to the Lord. Many questions are put to God in the Psalms (Psalms 10, 44, 74, 77). These are the cries of the persecuted, who are desperate for God's intervention and salvation. Although God does not always answer our questions in the way we want, we conclude from these passages that a sincere question from an earnest heart is welcomed by God.
Insincere questions, or questions from a hypocritical heart, are a different matter. "He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6). After King Saul had disobeyed God, his questions went unanswered (1 Samuel 28:6). It is entirely different to wonder why God allowed a certain event than it is to directly question God's goodness. Having doubts is different from questioning God's sovereignty and attacking His character.
In short, an honest question is not a sin, but a bitter, untrusting, or rebellious heart is. God is not intimidated by questions. God invites us to enjoy close fellowship with Him. When we "question God," it should be from a humble spirit and open mind. We can question God, but we should not expect an answer unless we are genuinely interested in His answer. God knows our hearts, and knows whether we are genuinely seeking Him to enlighten us. Our heart attitude is what determines whether it is right or wrong to question God.
After all since it's a "relationship" then questioning God, is permissible... So long as you sincerely want the answers.
It sure is strange how a God who can create all that we see and all the heavens was unable to keep man from messing up his word.
-- Posted by cfder on Thu, Mar 6, 2008, at 11:02 PM
I think it was when Eve ate the "forbidden fruit" that man lost all perfection... Or were humans inately perfect for a short period of time again?
Sharon22, explain the 300+ contradictions... Rationalize how you believe one or two verses in Leviticus but disregard the rest.
I am not bashing God, nor the original word. But if you think, for one minute it hasn't been twisted and changed, explain why there are so many variations within the English version itself. You are getting the wrong impression. By the way, I didn't say "I know what God says", I said "I believe" and I don't vilify entire sectors of society in doing so.
I am saying take it all with a grain of salt. I have just been pointing out the inconsistencies which are obvious, and the contradictions from one chapter to the next.
Darrick,
You have taken Michael to task for saying he knows what God says. I am not defending Michael, but has God spoken to you and said his word was twisted and manipulated time and time again? I will still hold that at present the Bible is the only way for me to develop a relationship with who should be my best friend. I can use the Bible to prove or disprove about anything that has been discussed on these blogs. Please use caution when you say that you know what God says, but you have difficulty with his written word.
It sure is strange how a God who can create all that we see and all the heavens was unable to keep man from messing up his word.
Not to change the tone here, but EM stirred in me a great debate when he talked about how much has been taken out of the "orginal Bible" I was studying Revelation and found this verse that profoundly caught my attention.
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life.--Rev.22:19
Then there's this: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.--Rev.22:18
hmm...
My oh my, glad you think so :)
Don't worry, darrick will no doubt show all of us where you were wrong. He's always right....
Here is my problem with using Genesis for anything...
There is the contradiction of "creation"
Genesis 1:25-27
(Humans were created after the other animals.)
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.
OR is it?
Genesis 2:18-19
(Humans were created before the other animals.)
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
I don't want to debate the innacuracies of the Bible, as they are apparent enough. I am a firm believer that God doesn't want us to just settle for what's been "handed down" for us to believe. He knows his word has been twisted and manipulated time and time again. I, nor anybody else need to add to the destruction of a once perfect word.
Good research!! It shows that the reason God destroyed that city was based on INCEST and wickedness, not men sleeping with men.. I atleast hope that is what you are trying to clarify. If Sodom and Gomorrah were full of rampant homosexauls then exactly how did they continue to procreate? Think about it.
-- Posted by darrick_04 on Wed, Mar 5, 2008, at 6:49 PM
Darrick 04,
Sorry if you misunderstood me. I am lacking in a good ability to convey my thoughts to another as I should. The main thing I was trying to convey was that incest as we know it had nothing at all to do with the destruction of Sodom. I also did not mean to convey that homosexuality was the only cause or sin to have destruction brought to Sodom. I guess I took a few things for granted. I assumed you had also read the previous chapter of Genesis which identified Sodom as lacking of even 10 righteous people. Their sins were many of which homosexuality was probably one of the least. Their unnatural lust to have sex with the male angels just happened to be the last that was identified. Being the last recorded of their sins does not neccasarily mean it was the sole contributing or their greatest sin. However, it is no doubt in my mind that homosexuality is a sin and one of the many that led to their being without even 10 righteous members.
Your reference to prophesying Ezekial does indeed mention more sins of which the people of Sodom were charged with. If you read the verses of Ezekial that lead up to your reference you can see what some of the haughty and detestable things were such as melting the jewelry and making idols of which they prostituted theirselves with.
In reference to your request for me to research the word sodomy I can tell you that was accomplished years before I responded to your post as I studied the act of destruction upon Sodom. The first known official coinage of the word sodomy itself was in the early 11th century. However the act of coinage followed what had forever been vaguely referred to as peccatum Sodomiticum (the sin of Sodom). This actual earlier research is why I asked you if you had made the connection between Sodom and sodomy. The word sodomy was coined from the "sin of Sodom". I fail to see where the inaccurate claims are but stand willing to be showed differently.
Homosexuality is a sin, just like a million other sins. It isnt any worse than stealing or adultery. All sin is an abomination unto the lord. I feel like the reason that most christians take so much offense to the "gay" lifestyle is that it is constantly being pushed down our throats that its ok. We have to accept it or we are bad people. I dont accept it, just like I dont accept adultery, stealing, lying, etc etc etc. I do tolerate it as their own choice, but I still dont think its right.
As far as the law in the old testament goes, we are not held to that standard anymore, since Jesus died for us. The law is there to show us how we should cling to Jesus for taking our sins as his own. He paid the price for us. If we got what we deserved we would all go to hell, in the eyes of God, because none are holy.
Also, you said at first Sodom was destroyed for incest, so which is it?
-- Posted by mathman on Thu, Mar 6, 2008, at 8:25 PM
In Ezekiel 16:48-50 God accuses Jerusalem of being worse than Sodom. He explains that the sin of Sodom was that "She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me."Correction: THAT is why it was destroyed...
Hmm, here is my "correction" as noted.
Let's not play the Leviticus game. If so, play if fair!
"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)
"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Leviticus 20:18)
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)
Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)
"...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you." (Leviticus 11:7)
"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)
"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)
"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)
The above exercise proves that anti-gay fundamentalists selectively quote the Bible. They enthusiastically and openly embrace those parts of the Bible which affirm and justify their own personal, pre-existing prejudice against gay people, while declining to become as enthusiastic about verses like the ones listed above.
After all, how many times have you heard a fundamentalist say that eating shellfish was an abomination? But they sure don't hesitate to say it about gay people, do they? What does that tell you?
Also, you said at first Sodom was destroyed for incest, so which is it?
darrick,
You cant leave the homosexuality part out. It says it too many times crystal clear, Leviticus 18:22 says "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
I'm still going to try and understand Sodom but I looked this verse up and I don't think I've ever read it before. God has ways of getting you hungry for the word and talking about this has made me want to dig, which is good.
Romans 1:26-27 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
parkerbrothers I sure have.. and if you think God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of "sodomy" then you may as well start your very own Westboro Baptist Church...
Research the word "Sodomy" and tell me when it was added to the English language. You'd be surprised how innacurate your claims are.
In Ezekiel 16:48-50 God accuses Jerusalem of being worse than Sodom. He explains that the sin of Sodom was that "She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me."Correction: THAT is why it was destroyed...
I hate to say it, but God made 1 man Adam, and 1 woman Eve, so I believe all the rest of man that are born would have to be from incest.
darrick_04,
Maybe I missed something but how do you draw a conclusion that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of incest. Again, I take the blame of not being able to always understand what I am reading but it appears to me that Genesis 19 your were referencing not only disputes your claim of incest as we define that word today as a contributing factor to the destruction but supports incest as an acceptable practice in that dispensation of time.
The latter verses (30-38) of Genesis 19 appears also to offer the answer to your last question of how they continued to procreate. If you continue just a little further into Genesis it seems as if perhaps Lot's uncle, the declared righteous Abraham himself was married to his half-sister committing what we would consider incest today.
A much later clarifying reference to the cause of destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah was made by Jude when he stated unnatural lust as a factor.
Lastly, have you made the connection between Sodom and sodomy.
I know incest came later.
Lot's daughters were so desperate to fulfill their "duty" to be mothers that they seduced/raped(?) their own father.
This was the virtuous family in town!
No wonder the neighbors had a weird definition of hospitality.
Lot wouldn't have tried to offer his virgin daughters to a lust-crazed mob if the locals had welcomed the angels with a covered dish.
Sorry I didn't answer back last night. I was taking care of a crying baby. I read the scriptures over and over trying to think about what they meant. You really have to study and read word for word and not skip over anything. I was taking it as when Lot took the two men into the house and fed them, all of the men (it says young and old) came and gathered around the house in search of the two men they saw go in. They wanted to have sex with them. I didn't see anything about incest. Did you notice at the very beginning it said the two men were angels?
I know the subject is supposed to be closed now, but I was doing some "research" and just thought I'd give you a site to read... remember this is for discussion not attacking.
http://bible.christianity.com/mybst/defa......
-- Posted by christiangirl on Wed, Mar 5, 2008, at 1:36 PM
Good research!! It shows that the reason God destroyed that city was based on INCEST and wickedness, not men sleeping with men.. I atleast hope that is what you are trying to clarify. If Sodom and Gomorrah were full of rampant homosexauls then exactly how did they continue to procreate? Think about it.
"Don't you remember when you USED to be against Jews, and everything they stood for, now you're suddenly seeking advice from Jewish Rabbi's.." -- Posted by nascarfanatic on Wed, Mar 5, 2008, at 12:14 PM
and THEN Michael replies...
When did I say I hated the Jews?
-- Posted by michaelbell on Wed, Mar 5, 2008, at 3:49 PM
Come someone please tell me where the word HATE in the statement made by Nascar??? This is the reason Michael has a hard time getting his point across, he takes scripture and even statements here and twists them around, to make them different. Hating Jews and being AGAINST them are two totally different things.
An earlier post you should read: "Most people who are certain they know what the Bible says about homosexuality don't know where the verses that reference same-sex behavior can be found. They haven't read them, let alone studied them carefully. They don't know the original meaning of the words in Hebrew or Greek. And they haven't tried to understand the historical context in which those words were written. Yet the assumption that the Bible condemns homosexuality is passed down from generation to generation with very little personal study or research. The consequences of this misinformation are disastrous, not only for God's gay and lesbian children, but for the entire church...Hmm... Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior. The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality. Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way -- and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it's understood today."
-- Posted by darrick_04 on Tue, Mar 4, 2008, at 9:59 PM
I found this interesting and I researched the points myself...Thanks for finding those 6 or 7 verses, now tell me WHOM they were directed to and they TRUE meaning.
This is cut and paste but very informative...The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When a person continues in sin and disbelief, the Bible tells us that God "gives them over" to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual "offenders" will not inherit the kingdom of God.
God does not create a person with homosexual desires. The Bible tells us that a person becomes a homosexual because of sin (Romans 1:24-27), and ultimately because of their own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person choosing to sin by giving into their sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger / rage, does that make it right for then to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true for homosexuality.
However, the Bible does not describe homosexuality as a "greater" sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God's forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17).
http://www.gotquestions.org/
we can find websites all day to back our claims up.
When did I say I hated the Jews?
I know the subject is supposed to be closed now, but I was doing some "research" and just thought I'd give you a site to read... remember this is for discussion not attacking.
http://bible.christianity.com/mybst/defa...
I have read the Hebrew bible and done the research and the older translations do condemn homosexuality.
Before this blog gets taken off for comments that should be made, and some of mine have come close, along with a few others.
I am closing the subject of gays and abortions out until funtil notice .
-- Posted by michaelbell on Wed, Mar 5, 2008, at 5:00 AM
I find this hard to comprehend since you can't even cleary read the ENGLISH Bible.. Since when did you learn Hebrew? LMFAO!!! The Hebrew Bible has been taken WAY out of context, ask someone who actually spent their life studying the original texts.
You aren't trying to close the subject on anything, you just don't have the TRUTH concerning them so you've run out of steam... Don't you remember when you USED to be against Jews, and everything they stood for, now you're suddenly seeking advice from Jewish Rabbi's... A blogger sought advice concerning many of the same issues you talk about in the Jewish context, and you shunned her because you said that had no basis. Yet, NOW, everything you discuss has been confirmed by a "Jewish Rabbi".. You have NO idea what you stand for, you just sway with the wind. You claim to be on a solid foundation, yet you duck and run when facts are presented to you. One of these days, you'll make up your mind; you'll either believe in Jesus or believe like the Jews, you'll hate gays, or you'll love them like Jesus said to do, and you'll forgive those who have abortions, or you'll continue to consider yourself immune from sin and it's consequences. I don't want to just let you walk away from a conversation that you've begun OVER and OVER again.
I am closing the subject of gays and abortions out until funtil notice .
-- Posted by michaelbell on Wed, Mar 5, 2008, at 5:00 AM
AMEN!
I am closing the subject of gays and abortions out until funtil notice .
-- Posted by michaelbell on Wed, Mar 5, 2008, at 5:00 AM
And, we thank you!
I am closing the subject of gays and abortions out until funtil notice.
Posted by michaelbell on Wed, Mar 5, 2008, at 5:00 AM
PRAISE GOD!!!!!!!
On the last comment.
I have nothing against the Jewish race , they are and have been the most persucuted people on earth.
They are the "apple of God's eye and always will be.
I have nothing against ANY race of people.
I have read the Hebrew bible and done the research and the older translations do condemn homosexuality.
Before this blog gets taken off for comments that should be made, and some of mine have come close, along with a few others.
I am closing the subject of gays and abortions out until funtil notice .
I have stayed away from the blogs for a while and I was sitting here and thought I would see what was new and hoped I would find something good to read. Once again alot of crap..Were do some of you come up with this mess I read ???? Why are you talking about Jewish people and Homosexuality...My Dad use to always tell me "Will if they are talking about me then thank the good lord they are giving someone else a rest".Just how long did it take you to decide on this to write about? I have read some of the Bible but not all of it and I can not ever remember reading that God did not love and care about people that were Gay. I was always taught that God loved everyone. Why are you wanting to start something with the Jewish people? I have meet some very nice Jewish people. All the one's I have meet are very kind and nice. Don't you think they have had a bad pass as wel as the Blacks and the Gay's. My goodness what a easy job you have to just sit and think of something stupid to say and put it in the paper. It must take you a few minutes a day to do this job. Get a Life and either say something nice in the paper or do not say anything at all.
EM slight correction on your history. England was and still is predominately Anglican/Church of England. I realize they split from the Catholic church, but they are 2 seperate identities. That in and of itself would prove to be an interesting discourse on the history of Christianity. I love the study of Christianity and what good and bad has been accomplished in the name of Christianity.
It's Michael's profession.
Here we go again. Major on the minor and minor on the major.
Hmm, interesting stuff there. I never realized any of that. But of course, Michael didn't either.. Big difference though, he claims to love his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet has NEVER ONCE EVER, provided a single scripture where HIS savior, condemns ANY of the things Michael does. Odd huh? Fear mongering, absolutely!
In order for King James to accept the Bible as gospel, the scribers translated it in a way that would be embraced by the Homophobic King. Many modern versions of the Bible are based on the King James Version.
God's destruction of the town of Sodom had nothing to do with homosexuality.
Leviticus verses do not deal with homosexuality but rather the Canaanite sex rituals performed by Molech's male priests/ prostitutes who dressed up as women, wore goddess vestments, and goddess masks and whose customers were male- hence laying with a male as though a female.
Eaten any ham sandwiches? Eaten at Red Lobster recently? Did you shave this morning? How about the clothes you are wearing - are they made of any blends of fibers? Had a haircut recently? Oh and by the way, have you been to the temple to make a burnt offering ? Can you explain why it is OK to do those things but not OK for people to love the consenting adult of their choice?
More serious discussion:
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable."
This was obviously directed at the majority heterosexual population. It would be just as unnatural for a homosexual to lie with the opposite sex as for a heterosexual to lie with the same sex. Gays are naturally attracted to same sex - that is how God created them. It would be detestable to force them into an unnatural act with a woman.
You also have to look at the context of the passage.
What you have to realize is these laws were designed to have priests distinguish themselves from the practices of the religions of the peoples around Israel in other parts of Canaan, especially those east of Jordan. These people were involved in the worship of Moloch and Baal and other gods and goddesses. One of the common practices were for the heterosexual priests of Moloch to dress up as women as part of their rituals and have sex with men who came to worship. Hence the prohibition of laying with men as with women - it was part of the religious worship, not with other men as in natural homosexuality.
In the start of chapter 20 if you read verse 2 it says to "speak to the children of Israel." Christians are NOT the "children of Israel". No Christians have an obligation to follow Jewish Levitical Laws- they just do not apply. Have you eaten a ham sandwich lately? If so, thank Jesus for it.
It says nothing about sexual orientation; the concept of orientation dates only from the late 19th century.
There are many references in the Bible to homosexual relationships, NONE of which is condemned. Several relationships are described positively in the Bible.
In English versions of the Bible, Paul condemned same-sexual activities, but there are many wrong word mistranslations. In order to understand what Paul was trying to say, you must go back to the Hebrew writings. One should also note that in the English versions, Paul also condemned women for preaching, or wearing jewelry. He also accepted the institution of slavery. This reflects his prejudices and is not particularly useful for ethics and morals in the modern world. Even if the translation is accurate, Paul's criticism of homosexuality is no longer valid like his various prohibitions against women's behavior.
Of the many hundreds of Jesus' prohibitions, beliefs, and behavior instructions, few have a sexual component and NONE condemns homosexuality.
Michael
I am not judging you for I am not God, but I do believe that you need to read this and then ask for forgiveness for you are guilty of ALL OF THESE!!
8- You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor:
Are you truthful and fair?… Do you lie?… do you judge others rashly?… do you respect the good name of others?… are you guilty of slander, deceit, calumny, detraction, gossip, or rush judgment?… do you keep a secrecy when required?…
You are truly guilty of this one in particular... guilty of slander, deceit, calumny, detraction, gossip, or rush judgment?…
Most people who are certain they know what the Bible says about homosexuality don't know where the verses that reference same-sex behavior can be found. They haven't read them, let alone studied them carefully. They don't know the original meaning of the words in Hebrew or Greek. And they haven't tried to understand the historical context in which those words were written. Yet the assumption that the Bible condemns homosexuality is passed down from generation to generation with very little personal study or research. The consequences of this misinformation are disastrous, not only for God's gay and lesbian children, but for the entire church.
2 Timothy:(15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Hmm... Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior. The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality. Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way -- and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it's understood today.
In all seriousness....What is it with you and homosexuality? It's bordering on psychotic obsession. Have you called Centerstone? If not, you need to. Therapy is desperately needed. I can link you to their web site. I hate to say this, but I can honestly see you on the side of the road protesting at a gay person's funeral, I truly wouldn't put it past you.
and Evil Monkey, how can he rethink what he writes, he doesn't write the blogs, he copies and pastes links and articles for the blogs. He can't come up with an original thought, alas the reason he can't give any straight (pardon the pun) answers.
Still waiting for an answer?
You linked regarding Catholics, then you stated how catholics did the Jews wrong. In the other blogs that you started, you stated that books were removed by men INSPIRED by God. The Church are the same people that supported Hitler. Are you denying this fact now?
Or do you just pick and choose what to believe and what not to believe?
I did not condemn them for anything I just made a comment.
michael,
These are the same people that re-wrote the bible and removed the books that you stated are not inspired..., but now you condemn them for other things?
You seriously need to think about what you write more thoroughly.
Hmm.. On the previous blog you said: Some of my comments or blogs may have been done without complete research and I will do better.
I will do the number and research for my blogs since that is what some of you need.
-- Posted by michaelbell on Tue, Mar 4, 2008, at 6:05 AM
.... Still waiting....
I know that England and France were mainly Catholic and they did fight.
The church at one time was the most powerful force in the world and they did nothing to end the terror put on the Jewish race.
Some researchers say that the Roman Catholic church even supported Hitler and gave them his blessings .
At one time the church was very anti -semetic and and prayed for the conversion of all the Jews.
Don't forget the Spanish Inquisition either.
FYI Michael, The United States did nothing to stop Hitler from committing the Holocaust either. Only after we were attacked by Japan did we enter the war.
France and Britian were predominately Catholic and They did fight Germany. I thought you were going to do more research? Didn't know a day was considered research reliable.
Regarding Israel, they have such incredible arsenals at the disposal, they could decimate most of the Middle East in mere days. But they choose not to do it, because we keep sending more money and arms. I have little doubt, If Israel ever does fall, the world will still continue as we know it.
OMG . . . this kind of garbage should not even be repeated or promoted.
Oh yeah, the homosexuals are out to get everyone and are getting ready to sacrifice small babies too! (Sarcasm)
Come on . . .lets talk about real issues and not this kind of crap. Does intelligence actually exist anymore? I am beginning to think not!