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Physical versus Spitirtual
Posted Monday, June 30, 2008, at 5:21 PM<< Previous | Read comments | Respond | Email link | Next >>
When I read the Bible not only do I read it as it reads but I get a spiritual meaning from it to , here is a example.
In Lev 21v17-24 it talks about the qualifications of the priesthood and when you first read the they sound kind of strange for instance 1.They can't be blind. 2.They can't be lame. 3.They can't have a flat nose. 4.They can't be hunchbacked. 5.They can't be dwarfed. 6.They can't have a blemish. 7.They can't have scabs. 8They can't have damaged stones. These reasons for whatever purpose God has was enforced in the Temple days in the physical sense , but in todays time they are in effect in the spiritual sense as follows. 1.A man by whatever title he goes by in the work of the Lord must have spiritual vision. 2.lame- he must walk straight and steady. 3.flat nose- must be able to discern things in the spirit. 4.hunchbacked- can't have a twisted attitude. 5.dwarfed- has to be able to grow spiritually. 6.blemish- - has to have revelation. 7.scabs- must be pure and clean. 8, damaged stones.-must be able to reproduce Christians if a man has been in a church as pastor for years and no one is getting saved and born again then he is a sterile pastor. Gen. 6v3 talks of man's time as 120 years, not as age but how long till God destroyed the earth with the flood. Also Moses was all about the do's and don't things you can or can't do or places you can or can't go for 40 years it was like this in the tabernacle. The people of this time was not taught praise or worship. Miriam danced one dance and Moses sang one song and that was it. David was a man of praise and worship he served as king for 40 years always praising and seeking after God's own heart. He failed at the law of Moses for the coveting of Bathsheba to the adultery to the murder of her husband. He always praised and sought after God with all his heart. He wanted to build the temple but God told him know because he was a man of war and a spiller of blood so the building of the temple was passed off to Solomon. Solomon was king for 40 years and built the greatest temple at the time and probably of today's time to. He kept a praise team at the site and they praised nonstop. He had all the stone cut outside the temple and brought in for iron was a sign of warfare and warfare and worship don't mix. These different phases of God's plan comes to a 120 years. The Pentecostal movement in America started out with the church being told what to do, wear, say and go. this lasted for 40 years.The ways of Moses The praise and worship come in next but the prior generation refused to accept the new revelation of God because the people became carefree in their live by not doing what their forerunners had told them to do. The ways of David. The charismatic movement hit in the last 40 years with praise and worship and going back to the way God intended a moral upstanding lifestyle. or it should be that way. The ways of David. The pulpit is supposed to be a place to let the church know they can be freed from smoking, alcohol, drugs, and sexual deviance and countless other demonic forces. The cloth has gotten soft by not preaching sanctification and them and the church living whatever lifestyle they want and come to get a goose bump on Sunday. The immoral society we live in today can be blamed a lot on the church and its leaders for not sticking with the word of God and giving in to trends and big tithers. There needs to be praise and worship , but God's people need to be sanctified and set apart and be a living testimony. Don't go to church to get a feel good message and get the "Holy Ghost " goosebumps and be unclean because you are getting in on someone else's. in Judges 16v20 Samson said he would go out and shake as before, all he did was shake for the Lord was not with him. Sanctification needs to come back to the Houses of God and call sin what it is SIN! But God! provides a way out it. A favorite saying of churches today is "Come as you Are" That is all fine, the question is How are you leaving? If I was in my youth I would say that the pulpit is missing a set of ? You know what the ? is I hope. Get a backbone Pastors, Preachers or whatever title you use, society needs a modern day Moses , David , Solomon to lead into the end time To show people how to follow the Word of God to praise and worship and to combine the two into what God desires and accepts and that is to worship in Spirit and Truth. Comments Showing comments in chronological order [Show most recent comments first] |
A man getting to the roots of his faith.
Hot topics A Little Something for Ever body.(79 ~ 10:13 PM, Nov 20)
Mercy and Grace
New Pharaoh?
Return To The Pulpit!
A Few Thoughts
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Hey EM, see if you can figure out which site Michael copy and pasted this from.... Seems to be a pattern
It is no copy and paste Its came from studying the Bible along with other men of God.
suppose to be it came I must of been choked on your foul smelling exhaust you need to change your brand of fuel it stinks.
It is no copy and paste Its came from studying the Bible along with other men of God.
-- Posted by michaelbell on Mon, Jun 30, 2008, at 8:50 PM
Hmm, ironically enough the unfortunate errors in this statement don't resemble the near flawless written skills in the blog itself...
suppose to be it came I must of been choked on your foul smelling exhaust you need to change your brand of fuel it stinks.
-- Posted by michaelbell on Mon, Jun 30, 2008, at 8:51 PM
Wow... I am completely hurt by that :( LOL.. Do you flatter yourself with those Junior High antics?
If people confine themselves to trends,they get unbalanced.
High protein diet?
You can miss the vitamins and fiber to be had in fresh fruits and vegetables.
High complex carbohydrates?
You might not get enough fat to metabolize certain nutrients.
It's the same with feeding the spirit.
If it's all negative (Don't do this,Beware of that...),then people can get depressed,anxious and overly dependent on works.
They can grow cynical and rebellious.
Satan and Hell take center stage and how we die matters more than how we live.
If it's all the proverbial cotton candy and fluffy ducks,then we're unprepared for good or bad times.
We can't avoid problems we don't acknowledge and we can't strengthen ourselves if we never take on challenges.
We can't appreciate all Christ has done if we celebrate Christmas and Easter and skip everything inbetween and afterwards.
These two facets are necessary but even they aren't enough.
They are the foundation and the framework but we must go on from there to build the Kingdom.
Salvation isn't about avoiding Hell or getting an e-ticket to a celestial theme park.
It's the begining of an abundant life here and now.
The pleasures and the responsibilities are without limit.
The fire-and-brimstone jeremiads and the praise,hugs and pot-luck dinner religion never fulfill their potential unless we take them beyond the church door and into a needy world.
We have to include them in our home life,our work,and all we do.
They have to operate every second of every day and not just on holidays or the Sabbath.
We can't just say we believe in God.
We have to show how His belief in us has made a difference.
When we are a diligent student,a considerate partner,a responsible worker,a loving caregiver,a good neighbor and a productive member of the community,then every inch of the extra miles we go brings our world that much closer to the God we claim to serve.
If people don't see our reason,courage,integrity,hope,peace and delight,then how are they going to know that we belong to the source of all that power?
It can be easy to sit in a place of worship and react to an obvious deficiency (too much sin,too little faith).
It's not hard to leave school and never pick up a book again or leave a hospital and think that being cured is the same as being healthy.
We can end a war but forget to begin the peace.
A belief practiced and a faith in action are unlikely to be too harsh and pessimistic nor are they apt to be frivolous or naive.
They aren't apt to seem false when their truth is applied toward every need.
They aren't apt to appear self-serving when the needs of others are being met.
We need to be prophets and celebrants but,most of all,we need to be living testimonials to the gift of Grace.
OMG.. Quantumcat, amazing thoughts! I love em'. Good to see someone who is TRULY filled with the spirit. You don't have to be negative, and condescending to other humans to get your points across...
Thanks for those truly encouraging words that ignite an honest and genuine desire for someone to begin to believe more and more in God and all that Jesus has done... Rather than causing confusion, apathy, and cognitive dissonance, you are a true beacon of light and I am astounded to read of your abundant wisdom. You so need your own blog to counter the incompetence of sanity...
A dose of John Hagee would do you boys some good or girls whichever the case or maybe your not sure.
I do love your comments Quantum Cat are you from around here local?
Michael Bell saids: in Judges 16v20 Samson said he would go out and shake as before, all he did was shake for the Lord was not with him.
Samson lost his strength when his hair was shaved; He has never shaved his hair, he was a Nazirite to God from his mothers womb. Once his hair was shaved the Lord departed from him. Then the Philistines put out his eyes bound him and made him a grinder in the prison. Judges 16:22 tells that his hair begins growing again after it was shaved. And Judges 16:28-31 tells that Samson calls on the Lord asking for strength,that with one blow he would have vengence on the Philistines for his two eyes and that he died with them. And what he asked the Lord for was done!
Michael Bell saids: Don't go to church to get a feel good message and get the "Holy Ghost " goosebumps and be unclean because you are getting on someone else's. A favorite saying of churches today is "Come as you Are"
That is all fine, the question is
How are you leaving?
Read:
http://www.promiseofgod.com/nojacket/
http://www.dougnichols.org/index.php?id=...
not till he called upon the Lord did the Lord come back.
I did not mean attire as far as coming as you are although some churches should use some better taste on how some of their members dress.
Are you leaving the same way spiritually?
By all means let all the filthy, nasty stinking sinners come to the House of God , that is where you get cleaned up, not on the outside but the inside.
Once you clean the heart up the body will follow.
Manic poster, just a little? Real Christian of you having to say something really childish to nascarfanatic, I'll be real sure to "archive" it in Nashville on the 13th floor of some building to show your "church" later down the road. Oh wait, why should I waste my time? It might mean taking some effort and getting out of your chair and doing something ...
Once you clean the heart up the body will follow.
-- Posted by michaelbell on Tue, Jul 1, 2008, at 4:50 AM
Very true. I might add that once the inside is cleaned up it will also desire to have the outside refrain from exposing itself to sinful and lustful acts.
That is if the inside truly got cleaned up.
Michaelbell...All I want to say is please go to the NEW GIRL on the blog and read what she has written...I think it will help you some...
If you are going to church for the right reasons then I am pretty sure it is not about how you dress. I would rather see people in jeans or whatever there for the right reasons than someone in their suit and tie sitting back judging the others. If you are sitting back judging what someone else is wearing then I guess you are not taking a look at your own flaws and repenting.
I have been to your church Michael and I listened to your preacher talk about how he was a drunk and a cheat and how God saved him. That is all well and good but just because there are different churches out there that preach differently does not still mean the message is not still coming across. It does not have to be all hell and damnation to get someone to repent. Because ,truthfully, if it was not for God's love and mercy we would all be destined for hell. God is looking at our souls not are labels.
Thank you for the kind words.
I'm from here and any virtue I have probably came from being around the kind of people I've shared my life with.
This town has been blessed with so many thoughtful,decent,creative people that it's hard not to get a good set of values.
(Even if one can't always live up to them.)
We also have had some of the best experts on self-sabotage,inertia and spite I've ever seen.
(I've learned a few lessons from them,too.)
I figure most of us have our inner and outer beings in such good condition that every stain or sign of disrepair stands out.
We try to take care of the rips and blemishes as we go.
Sometimes,it's obvious we haven't.
Is it because we aren't aware of the damage?
Do we not care? Are we trying to offend?
Or might we be presenting the best we have and it has deteriorated so much that we figure one more tear or bit of soil won't matter.
If we know how we are flawed,we might think we have to perfect ourselves before we can be seen in public.
If we're in good shape,we might want to avoid stepping out of our display case and going out in the world where we might get mussed.
When we are given our new garments,we aren't just handed "Sunday-go-to-meeting" outfits.
We are given work clothes and play clothes,as well.
We aren't meant to be careless just because the folks at the Cleaners are miracle workers but we should get used to the idea that even those treasures who stay "Mint-in-Box" have to be dusted off once in a while.
rebelrose,
Glad to see you on here. You posted the following post below the other day:
""Why do you judge people??? God does not judge any of us...he loves us all...You can talk and talk about how some people live and you know that God does not like that..But you are wrong...He loves us all no matter what.""
I asked you a question but perhaps you missed it. I still have the question and would like an answer.
Where did you learn of this God you talk about?
He sounds different than the one I know and I am curious.
Also tell me about this word "judge" you are fond of?
parkerbrothers...This God is the one I was brought up with when I was growing up and the one I still believe in to this day...He is the God that has helped me thru some really bad times and also the God i questioned several times when bad things had come my way....But he always seemed to find in his on way to show me why I questioned him and why things happen to us all...The other day when we were moving I felt I could do no more that night...As we stood outside the house we were moving from and it was almost dark...I looked up and said please God give me a sign that you are there and will give us a better day tomorrow....Well out from no place these wonderful clouds that were in the sky turned this wonderful bright color as if God was shinning a light down on the three of us...It was so wonderful and my husband said he is watching over us and my son took a pic of the clouds with his cell phone...Why does my God sound different from your God...Isn't he the same one ??? I learned this God from my chruch when I was growing up and my Father and Mother and my Grandma and Grandpa.....I use the word judge because so many times when I read your blogs it seems that you do judge people if they live or love a different way than you do....Maybe I am reading it wrong...God made us all different...Just because other people live different than others does not mean that God is not looking after them or cares about them...I do not believe that anyone should push anything on any one or tell anyone how they should live...
parkerbrothers...Just go outside and listen to the birds sing or look at the clouds in the sky or look at all the flowers or listen to the children laughing and playing or look into your pet's eye's or watch 2 elder couples holding hands......you will see my God and your God all around.....and at night take a minute and go outside and look at all the stars and look at the ones that our blinking...that is a angel winking at you...My God and your God is the same one and he is always around us...
"The pulpit is supposed to be a place to let the church know they can be freed from smoking, alcohol, drugs, and sexual deviance and countless other demonic forces.
The cloth has gotten soft by not preaching sanctification and them and the church living whatever lifestyle they want and come to get a goose bump on Sunday."
The pulpit is supposed to be a place to lift glory to the Father. Worship time is to prepare our hearts and spirits to what God wants to lay on our hearts. Preachers are their to intrepret the message of God that is written in the Bible. A preacher who is quick to condemn will turn people away, but one full of love, like our Father is full of love, will be a fisher of men. Our lives are full of sin, mine, yours, every human-but Jesus' sacrifice on the cross cast our sins as far as the east is from the west. I for one go to church to glorify God, to praise him and thank him and to study his Word. I don't need a preacher to break me down, that is God's job. When we aren't living our lives for him he will bring us to our knees, and then when we put our trust in him he will build us up. As for what we wear-i think it's about what the santuary of our hearts looks like. Sunday I wore plaid shorts and an Mtsu t-shirt to church, but man did I worship. I could feel the spirit in that place it was awesome. Its about innerwear, not your clothes.
rebelrose,
From your post I still think you are only seeing the side of God you wish to see. Unfortunately for non-believers there is a God who is a wee bit more than what you have said. Have you not been told of the God that wiped out mankind except for 8? If you had you would not be making comments that lead one to believe that no matter what we do God is happy with it. That just is not the God of the Bible I know.
Yes you can look at the birds and the trees and the stars and the moon and conclude there is a God. But that is only the beginning of the knowing of God.
I also wonder if you noticed you asked for a sign if God was there.
When I asked God to give me a sign it was not because I did not think he was there...I often sit at nite and asked God to Show me a sign or even ask him why something bad has happened to someone I know or even me....I never have lost the faith....I know we both believe in the same things...but look at some things different from each other...That is ok...as long as when we go in a different way that we always meet in the middle with the Love for God....Please don't question me about my faith and the love I have for God...I don't question you about your love for God or your faith....
parkerbrothers....May I ask you if you are the parker that got in the fight at Duck River Raceway a few weeks back?...I do not mean anything bad by asking you that...I hope you want take it that way....
So I guess any lifestyle goes whether it is living together outside of marriage or a homosexual relationship.
Listen, jeans and a t-shirt is fine by me.
All I am saying is if you have a lot of young men in church or men in general who might be fighting a porn addiction, they don't need to see in God's house what they can see on the street or television.
If a pastor knows that somebody is committing adultery or shacking up or doing drugs or alcohol
Paul admonished people for sins and Peter did to.
If somebody came to me and admitted to stealing something I would give him a certain amount of time to turn himself in or I would do it for him.
To let a person stay in his sin is wrong!
If you are called to preach Gods' Word, then that is ALL you are suppose to do, you can not Play God to peoples sins. That is between God and the sinner. Everyone is a sinner including you, so what do you think a church should do about you and your sins?
"NOTHING, but pray that God will touch your heart and you will change from your sinful ways". And that is all those that Are CALLED to preach Gods' Word does, "Preach the Word of God, and pray for their souls.
You are looking at the outer appearance, the lifestyle, or the sins of a person and trying to decide FOR them how they are suppose to be, or what to wear, or live, and what they are suppose to be doing with their relationship; denying them the experiences God is going to take them through to change them. You don't know what is in that persons mind or heart. And you don't know Gods' plan for that person. NEVER turn a person away from church because of what they are wearing, "God said to come as you are" sinful, dirty, worn out clothes, worn out spirit, lost, hungry or what ever, "COME"! Please don't tell people what to wear to church, not everyone have dresses or suits; and if their is a pervert in the church God will deal with him in "Gods' Way".
Let Go, and Let God!
Momof3&3step&1gran,
Unfortunately, the Bible gives a little different account of the things you mentioned. It is quite detailed on matters of the church. Let go, and Let God is not an admonishment I have seen yet in the Bible in reference to church conduct.
A lot of what you say is true as far as quality of clothes go but the most of what you said is just not biblical. At least not to my knowledge yet. I am willing to look at it if you know where to reference me to it.
parkerbrothers,
Problem with your "critical" thinking is... We aren't part of his church.
rebelrose,
I will not question your actual faith. I may question your representation to whom you have faith in but I generally find pleasure in anyone who is of the faith. I do however find displeasure in anything that portrays God as only part of what He is. I think the total character of God has to be ackowledged to see a need and reason for the passion of the Christ. I know you have probably noticed that I am critical and dismayed at people who want to half represent God's character as being nothing but love. Yes indeed love is a part of God's character but if it was love only then Jesus need not have given his life as a ransom for us.
To deny the wrath and anger of God is a slap in the face of Jesus. He gave all to appease this wrath and anger generated by sins of man.
Evil Monkey,
Perhaps part of your problem is you are not part of the "Church" or you would understand. If you are a Christian, you are part of the "Church" which is admonished to certain conduct through the Word of God.
rebelrose,
I was one of the ones named in the paper in their erroneous account of what happened of which they or their source will be held accountable for shortly.
There was no fight. Just a riot and mob by 30 - 40 people of which all will also be held accountable shortly. Wish I could say more but that would not be fair to anyone at this time. Time and truth will tell all very shortly. As Paul Harvey says, stay tuned for "the rest of the story".
James 2:1-7 (New International Version)
Favoritism Forbidden
1 My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism.
2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in.
3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet,"
4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?
6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?
7 Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?
parkerbrothers...I believe I read that you hit him with your car...That does not sound like a very christian thing to do...It seems like you have alot of anger built up inside you...Taking it out on others is not a very good thing to do..I am in no way tring to tell you what to do or feel...I do not understand what you meant when you said that you question the representation to whom I have faith in.....My faith is in God....then you said you had displeasure in anything that protrays God...I believe in God...My God is God and he does not protray anyone...He is God....I myself have sinned many times....Sometime from driving down the road and calling someone a nut that was driving very bad...When I get mad I say things I should not say at times...I always ask God to forgive me for saying something I should not...God knows that I have been very mad at him at times...When my grandson died and when he took my father at the age of 53 with cancer I spoke out to him...When my nephew passed away a few months back at the age of 18 and I remember on 9 11 I cried and spoke out in maddness to God...But I always ask for forgiveness...I know that was a sin..But I also know God understands when we speak out at him when we have been hurt...You talk about your God and my God....There is only one God..I believe the one I love and count on and talk to and have in my heart is the same God as yours.....
parkerbrother...I was also brought up to believe that when we sin and we ask God for forgiveness he will forgive us for our sins...
rebelrose,
You will have to re-read what I wrote earlier to you for what little details I can give you on the accident.
As far as the rest of your comments I believe you also just need to go back and re-read what I said. I think you just got a little excited the first time you read it and missed it.
parkerbrother...I was also brought up to believe that when we sin and we ask God for forgiveness he will forgive us for our sins...
-- Posted by rebelrose on Tue, Jul 1, 2008, at 9:53 PM
Most definitely, rebelrose. Most definitely.
To let a person stay in his sin is wrong!
-- Posted by michaelbell on Tue, Jul 1, 2008, at 4:15 PM
Not only is it wrong, it is non-loving. How could you care and have love for anyone and let them stay in sin by turning a blind eye to it? Impossible.
parkerbrothers...I believe this has been one of the most kind talks we have had...it has been very nice...I am just a old school girl when it comes to what I believe with God...I think we believe the same thing ...But I look at things in a different way when it comes to other people and how they love and what they do...I know you do not like gays and a few other things....Me..I do not look at the outside of people or things...I can always find something good in everyone...I always believe like with gay's that they love in a different way and that does not mean that they do not have God in their hearts...We should not turn our backs on anyone...How other people live is between God and them...You know God may already be here in so many different people...How would you feel if a gay person needed your help and you turned your back on them and then later you found out it was a test from God and he was the person you turned your back on ???? Just a thought...
rebelrose,
I want to clarify a few things you said. It is not that I do not like gays. It is the sin of homosexuality I do not like. My feelings on it are derived from viewing how God feels about it. God does not find any pleasure in it.
My best friend in high school who has remained my best friend for over 30 years since high school has a son who is gay and my words are the same to him as they would be to anybody. It is displeasing in the eyes of God. My opinion would not change even if I had a son who was gay. I would always love him but would never tell him I loved the lustful sin he was engaged in of which God despices.
I have noticed you talk about God alot but I do not recall you mentioning Jesus Christ. Is there any particular reason?
How would you feel if a gay person needed your help and you turned your back on them and then later you found out it was a test from God and he was the person you turned your back on ???? Just a thought...
-- Posted by rebelrose on Tue, Jul 1, 2008, at 10:17 PM
I know my God well enough to know He will not present Himself as gay. It just is not going to happen.
As far as turning my back on a gay person that needed my help I never would. I would quickly help him understand how God feels about the sin of homosexuality.
The only way a Christian can turn their back to a gay person is to just go along and pretend nothing is wrong in order to avoid confrontation. If you are truly interested in helping them you will do the tough thing and confront their sin. If you care for nothing but yourself you will allow them to continue on in their vice as though nothing is wrong.
It's amazing how you claim to know what displeases God, yet continually deny any responsibility for what YOU did weeks ago... claiming it's all fabricated is NO different than all of these bloggers accusing Michael of fabricating his ordainment documents... Difference is, Michael really did fabricate his ordainment, and eye witness involving your case did not.
What pleases God? I am sure you know all the answers to that one.. So long as it doesn't pertain to the things you've done.
I know my God well enough to know He will not present Himself as gay. It just is not going to happen.
As far as turning my back on a gay person that needed my help I never would. I would quickly help him understand how God feels about the sin of homosexuality.-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Tue, Jul 1, 2008, at 10:38 PM
Exactly how do you know who and what God will present himself as? Seems like you're putting YOURSELF in God's shoes... Since when did YOU make GOD'S decisions... Hmm... A strange pattern is developing, you can't take responsibility for YOUR actions, you can condemn other groups of people who DON'T cause other human beings to nearly lose their lives, and YOU know what GOD will and will not do...
parkerbrothers...I believe I do not say it cause in my many years I have heard so many people say it when they are saying it for a swear word...I love the sound of god....you know I have never really thought to much about it....Is it wrong for me not to say it????
Exactly how do you know who and what God will present himself as?
Posted by nascarfanatic on Tue, Jul 1, 2008, at 10:45 PM
nascarfanatic.
Just read and believe the Bible and you will have no problem knowing that. Simple if you would allow it to be.
I know my God well enough to know He will not present Himself as gay. It just is not going to happen.
-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Tue, Jul 1, 2008, at 10:38 PM
Seems like you pick and choose which verses to lay claim to... You're self-proclaimed Masters Degree in Christianity must not have had many hands on courses with scriptuer... Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." You know your God well enough to know "he will not present himself as gay"... yet the aforementioned verse says ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.
Sounds as if you should "read and believe your Bible" and perhaps you would have "no problem knowing" all things are possible.. Because, it's "simple if you would allow it to be"...
It's just as wrong to deny the loving part of God and the jubilant part of faith as the reverse.
The book "Pollyanna" mentions 826 "glad texts" - or enough for sixteen years of sermons.
It's pretty obvious why we would want to underplay discipline,accountability,wrath and judgement.
Those subjects imply that God might expect us to act like grown-ups and use the good sense He gave us.
But,why would we want to ignore the positive aspects of our faith and turn that set of truths over to the sunshine and rainbows bunch?
If I wanted to know the truth about life in the military,I'd not base my opinion on "Sgt. Bilko" OR "Full Metal Jacket".
I wouldn't assume firefighting was all about kittens stuck in trees or those scenes from "Volcano".
The reality of police work has to be somewhere between One Bullet Barney Fife and "The Shield"'s Vic Mackey.
Similarly,the truth about God has to go beyond the extremes of the angry God who seeks to destroy all He finds repugnant and the friendly and distant God who reduces our redemption to the equivalent of a "fixed" parking ticket.
Perhaps,the truth would include a God who loves and believes in His creations so much that He grieves and is incensed every time we throw away our legacy to wreck our own lives and everything around us.
He would not be angry with a person who had no awareness of right and wrong and no control over his actions.
His furor comes from His knowing we can be better if we choose.
The two extremes both seem to overlook our duty to take the Grace we have been given and go beyond using it to make up for our sin.
We are meant to use it to act on God's behalf.
Both seem to see salvation as an end.
I think God prefers to see it as a means.
rebelrose,
I personally have heard God's name used in a swear word a thousand times more often than I have Jesus's name used now that you mentioned it.
Nothing wrong with not saying the word Jesus. I just wondered if you had been told about Him and His Passion?
Exactly how do you know who and what God will present himself as?
Posted by nascarfanatic on Tue, Jul 1, 2008, at 10:45 PM
nascarfanatic.
Just read and believe the Bible and you will have no problem knowing that. Simple if you would allow it to be.
-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Tue, Jul 1, 2008, at 10:52 PM
Ok then.. Since you read and believe your Bible, SHOW ME (in YOUR bible) where GOD tells us the ONLY ways he will present himself... Mr. Bible expert.
jesuslovesevery1,
I believe that verse is out of context. Matter of fact, I know it is.
Funny how THAT verse is "out of context" yet you don't realize all the verses pertaining to those whom you wish to demonize is just as out of context
I think we'd better treat everyone with the love we'd show Christ (just in case).
Who knows?
That might be what they need to start cultivating a family resemblance.
Since I was a young girl I believe I have been taught everything that I need to know ....I hope I have passed it all to all my children and they are teaching their children the same thing...be kind...loving...thankful...giving....always carry God in your heart and he will always have us in the palm of his hands...
nascarfanatic,
If you know the God of the Bible as the absolute pure and perfect God He is you would understand his intolerance of sin. He will not present himself as sin. Only his advesary, posing as an angel of light would present himself that way and he would deceive you into thinking it was all right to be engaged in the sin of homosexuality. God could not present himself in sin.
Since I was a young girl I believe I have been taught everything that I need to know ....I hope I have passed it all to all my children and they are teaching their children the same thing...be kind...loving...thankful...giving....always carry God in your heart and he will always have us in the palm of his hands...
-- Posted by rebelrose on Tue, Jul 1, 2008, at 11:09 PM
rebelrose,
A lot of people think the same way in that they believe what they have been taught. I just hope they have been taught that there is only one way to the Father and that is through his Son Jesus Christ. It is Jesus that holds us in His hand. Without knowing Jesus you can not know the Father.
God could not present himself in sin.
-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Tue, Jul 1, 2008, at 11:11 PM
It's funny.. I don't recall GOD, nor JESUS saying a single thing about homosexuality... Which wasn't even a word when the "Bible" was written. Which state sponsored religion decided to add that word?? I bet you have no clue. But anyways, we know all about "presenting ourselves" right... Sorda like that one night you presented yourself as sin and to this day, take no responsibility for it. Funny
nascarfanatic,
Good try but you will just have to wait a wee bit longer.
parkerbrothers...I have no worries at all because I know them both and have since I can remember...Even when I was 12 and was being baptized God and Jesus saw that I was dunked twice in the water( preacher King lost grip on me when he was pulling me up and I went down for the second time)
rebelrose,
Great, you have to know both of them to know one of them.
Out of curiousity, what do you think Jesus came to save us from? In order to be a Saviour there has to be something He is saving us from. What do you believe it is?
Sin.....
And what are the ramifications of sin?
We will all sin at times until the day God call's us home....We all can ask for foregiveness...He will give it to us as long as we really want it and really are sorry for what we have done....And if we believe...and Put our trust and faith in him...
What if we are not truly sorry and/or do not ask for forgiveness?
ramifications of sin is HELL....But God will forgive us all like I believe as long as we have faith in him and trust and ask for forgiveness...
If the ramifications of sin is HELL, what would you say to someone if you knew they were living in a sin you knew about if you loved them?
If and when someone has sinned and knows it and has God in their heart they will ask for forgiveness....If they do not ask and are not sorry that is between them and God....You can not push it on anyone if they do not want it...but that does not mean that we have the right to be ugly or rude or mean to them....Maybe they just need time to except god into their life...I have faith in everyone...We are all brother's and sister's....I will treat everyone like I would want to be treated....When you have hurt someone...does it bother you.
Of coarse it hurts. Even when it is done in the name of helping someone it still hurts.
Back to my last question. If you really loved and cared for someone and knew they were living in unrepented sin could you stand to just turn a blind eye on it and allow them to be exposed to the ramifications of sin? If you really cared and had a concern for their soul?
What I may think is sin ...May not look like sin to them...I can not say what is sin to God except..murder..sexual assult...Harming or hurting someone else....To me eating 3 do-nuts in 30 minutes is a sin..(sorry I just had to say that)..It just is not my place to tell someone else how to live their life....Now if someone was going to get hurt or killed Yes I would step in and do my best to stop it...but I can not tell someone else who to love or how to live or dress....
The Bible is quite clear on what sin is. In your above post you said if someone was going to get hurt or killed you would try to intervene. Is not the thought of Hell worse than either of those two. Why would you not try to stop or at least warn someone you loved from being exposed to the ramifications of sin?
Why not stress forming a bond with God instead of just avoiding hellfire?
This is an old tune for me but I think people should prefer to spend eternity in Hell with God rather than spend a second in Heaven without Him.
Their bond with God will have them ready to listen to Him and comply with his will to the best of their abilities.
They will not only be able to jettison all that is wrong with their lives but all that is right,as well-IF that is what the Lord requires.
I'd like to think that every believer meets God in perfect alignment with His wishes.
Instead,I suspect we may remain unaware of some of our weaknesses.
We may know of others but be struggling to overcome them.
Some things we may hold onto even when we know they re wrong.
I think the issue of forgiveness and repentence comes up when we must ask ourselves what thing (good or bad) is more important to us than Christ?
Are we willing to say: "I can't perceive or follow Your will as I should by myself. You're going to have to pick up the slack "?
When we can't quite turn away from evil,we can turn toward God.
(That winds up being the same thing.)
Instead of debating what taboos we want to impose in God's name,why don't we encourage salvation and let the Lord work out with His people where He wants them to go from there?
If we lead folks to the Living Water,He can help them think.
I did not fabricate anything.
I went through the course and completed the required test.
I don't answer to you anyway , just God!
I don't care about the clothes , just how much they don't cover up.
Why not stress forming a bond with God instead of just avoiding hellfire?
Posted by quantumcat on Wed, Jul 2, 2008, at 3:05 AM
quantumcat,
In all probability and fairness you would have to do both in order to represent the true character of the bonding agent.
Something that has always bothered me is how can anybody expect sinners to follow Christ if they keep scaring the heebie jeebies outta them?
Sure damnation is essential knowledge for lost ones to obtain but it's not ALL Hell, fire and brimestone. Sometimes I wonder if we all focus mainly on the bad stuff when we should also be thinking about the amazing things God has done for us and the good things to come for those who believe.
A quote from, believe it or not, the comedy film Dogma sort of relates to this:
"Christ didn't come down to give us the willies. He came to help us out."
It's no wonder people choose not to believe in God; With all the "You'll go to Hell for that"s it just pushes people away. You can't force someone to believe. But you can continue to be a shining light for the lost in a positive way. If we could all quit with the damning and the judging then we'd see a big difference.
"In all probability and fairness you would have to do both in order to represent the true character of the bonding agent."
And would that bonding agent be fear and hate? Thanks for confirming my point from the beginning, you make my life so much easier.
Raven Shonski,
Everyone sees things as they will. I agree you can not just display the hell and damnation part of it. That is just as bad as displaying only the good side. My position has always been that the total character of God has to be brought forth.
Actually I have said that you can not grasp the Love of God without knowing the Wrath of God. And vice versa, you can grasp the Wrath of God without knowing the Love of God.
They go hand in hand.
As far as your comment...""Christ didn't come down to give us the willies. He came to help us out."....you should notice that in the Bible Cchrist himself talked about a damnation and wailing and gnashing of teeth. So also did the Apostles.
No one will ever know they need saving if they do not know what it is they are to be saved from??
Evil Monkey,
Unfortunately the God I know does have fear and hate as part of His chosen disclosed charater. I wish he did not but I choose to accept reality.
As I have told you before you guys seem to know a different Jesus and God from what I do. Yours really sounds like an easier pill to swallow.
Again I ask you monkey:
# 23 - "Tell me about this Jesus you know and where did you learn of him???????????????????????"
I might could be converted to the one that brings fuzzy ducks and cotton candy with him. Convert me if you can evil monkey. Tell me about him.
"The Bible is quite clear on what sin is. In your above post you said if someone was going to get hurt or killed you would try to intervene. Is not the thought of Hell worse than either of those two. Why would you not try to stop or at least warn someone you loved from being exposed to the ramifications of sin?"
The Bible does give a very detailed outline of sin. But...the ramifications of sin is not an eternity in Hell- at least not to saved man. If you believe that Jesus died for our sins, and that he is the son of God-you can't go to hell. I'm not sure the exact verse but it says in the Bible that a saved man can not be condemned-even with his flaws. Yes, we will all have to answer to God on judgement day for all the foul things we've done in our lives, but the end result is a God who forgives. We're missing the big picture-it's not about what we think is right or wrong-it's about glorifying the Father and giving our hearts to him. If we all follow that simple formula think of how much different our lives could be, if we dared to shine His light. That would be awesome!
parkerbrothers,
You still haven't answered the question from 5 months ago, #528.
Convert you? Um, I am not a cultist nor do I even care to be considered one. Think you need to get your head out of the 13th Century. Or are are going to lie and steal your way into heaven like you did one that copywritten article? You still haven't answered that question either.
I love electricity. It keeps me warm in the cold and cool in the heat. It powers most of the useful things in my life - even my body if my science/physiology is accurate. It is indeed a wonderful thing. But, they tell me that if you don't follow certain rules in interacting with it you can get zapped. These rules of interaction are not dependent on what I think the rules should be or what I want them to be. They just are. I either obey them or suffer the consequences. I have never tried to violate these rules, at least knowingly or with intent, but I have faith, based on good authority, that bad things will happen if I ignore the rules. The demonstration of this faith is that I do not act like electricity is not dangerous and that I do act like I appreciate the existence of electricity in my life.
This blog was about the physical and the spiritual, wasn't it?
No devan, it has always been about who's right and who's wrong. Michael only posts his blogs to start the same crap over and over. he has nothing new to add, just the same old crap.
BTW, nice to see you again and I love your analogy. How have things been going with yourself?
Too much work, too little play.
I believe all michael's blogs cause is anger and it seems that he enjoys bringing out the negativity in everyone by his predictions of end of times and it is very sad to read his blogs and see all the negative response.
What is negative about the return of Christ? It amazes me that a man can mention it and the number of people who see it as gloom and doom?
Do not you see it as a glorious time if you are a Christian?
I can understand Satan viewing it as gloom and doom. It diffinitely is not something he has been looking forward to.
Evil Monkey,
If I have not answered a question of yours I apoligize, but please extend the same courtesy as I have done to you and ask the question.
The Bible does give a very detailed outline of sin. But...the ramifications of sin is not an eternity in Hell- at least not to saved man.
Posted by reed_ashley on Wed, Jul 2, 2008, at 10:22 AM
The question is: "Would a saved person continually live in an unrepented sin such as adultery, fornication or homosexuality?"
I agree with you on "a saved man can not be condemned". Nobody has said that anymore than me. I also believe "once saved - always saved - if saved".
The real problem I see on here is that people want to continue with their lustful vices and think they can keep those along with having salvation. I hate to see people deceived into such liberal thinking. That just is not biblical. Let's hear your thoughts on this agitated subject.
Bear in mind we are talking about professing Christians who think there is nothing wrong with man marrying another man. What is your thoughts?
"a saved man can not be condemned"
Sorry I just don't believe that. That's like giving every psychopath a free ticket to salvation.
"once saved - always saved - if saved"
Nope sorry, that would be just plain idiotic. Why would someone continually do the same thing over and over when it clearly states it is wrong.
I just hate to see people deceived into such conservative thinking. That just in not biblical. Bear in mind we are talking about professing Christians who think there is nothing wrong with stealing, lying, gluttony, hypocrisy, assaulting, and blasphemy.
"a saved man can not be condemned"
Sorry I just don't believe that. That's like giving every psychopath a free ticket to salvation.
Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Jul 2, 2008, at 12:57 PM
You can believe it monkey. That is where real peace and joy comes from knowing you are eternally secure.
"once saved - always saved - if saved"
Nope sorry, that would be just plain idiotic. Why would someone continually do the same thing over and over when it clearly states it is wrong.
You can believe that also monkey. A saved person will not continually do what is wrong over and over. His consciense will convict him as God disiplines him. IF he is saved.
I just hate to see people deceived into such conservative thinking. That just in not biblical. Bear in mind we are talking about professing Christians who think there is nothing wrong with stealing, lying, gluttony, hypocrisy, assaulting, and blasphemy.
-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Jul 2, 2008, at 12:57 PM
My consciense will difinitely convict me if I once participate in those things, let alone if I attempted in on a regular basis. I can not stand the conviction if I even think about one of those.
Speaking of lying,it's a good thing I'm not the one who puts people's quotes onto the blogs.
It would be so easy to "accidentally" put the quotes under the wrong bylines and see if the approval or ridicule they received stayed in keeping with their merit or if they fluctuated according to who the author was assumed to be.
It will be interesting when we finally discover who has been speaking for God and to what degree.
We might have to do a quick 180 on how we perceive them.
We might have to change our tune even faster than a hardware store clerk I once heard tell about.
He's sniggering with his co-workers about the "fool that just asked to buy half a joint of stove-pipe".
He realizes that there's a very burly,very irate-looking customer right behind him.
Without missing a beat,the clerk continues.
"Fortunately,THIS fine man is here to buy the other half."
Do we want to condemn or endorse an idea based on our opinion of the person who presents it-or do we run it by God and let that determine if we should apply it to our lives?
I hope the following correction straightens it up quantumcat:
-------------------------------------
"once saved - always saved - if saved"
Nope sorry, that would be just plain idiotic. Why would someone continually do the same thing over and over when it clearly states it is wrong.
Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Jul 2, 2008, at 12:57 PM
-----------------------------------------
You can believe that also monkey. A saved person will not continually do what is wrong over and over. His consciense will convict him as God disiplines him. IF he is saved.
The Bible does give a very detailed outline of sin. But...the ramifications of sin is not an eternity in Hell- at least not to saved man.
Posted by reed_ashley on Wed, Jul 2, 2008, at 10:22 AM
****reed_ashley,*****(not evil monkey)
The question is: "Would a saved person continually live in an unrepented sin such as adultery, fornication or homosexuality?"
I agree with you on "a saved man can not be condemned". Nobody has said that anymore than me. I also believe "once saved - always saved - if saved".
The real problem I see on here is that people want to continue with their lustful vices and think they can keep those along with having salvation. I hate to see people deceived into such liberal thinking. That just is not biblical. Let's hear your thoughts on this agitated subject.
Bear in mind we are talking about professing Christians who think there is nothing wrong with man marrying another man. What is your thoughts?
(P.S. - I have already heard your babbling Evil monkey, so pipe the chatter down and let this person answer the question)
"I have already heard your babbling Evil monkey, so pipe the chatter down and let this person answer the question"
Babbling? Well at least I make sense. Your babbling seems to borderline hysteria since you feel the need to answer everyone's comments when they aren't even directed to you. Wow 5 comments in a row... over the same thing, Obsession much?
Evil Monkey,
You love me, don't you?
How much???
http://monkeys.funny-animal-picture.com/...
You know something guys, I would have a much easier time believing any of this if I knew that some of the more vocal people were actually committed to a faith community where some type of accountablity exists. I realize that not a perfect place exists, but as my father says, "the church is made up of the same people that live in the community around where the church is." We may not agree with everything that our specific place of worship teaches, I know I sure don't, but it is a place where we can learn and grow from and with each other. It is also a place where accountability should exist and where prayer and support takes place. The last I knew, there was only one person that was perfect that lived on this earth and he lived over 2,000 years ago and died for ALL our sins. God created each of us as individuals, with our own thought processes and ideas. We are going to disagree on dogma and theological stuff to a certain extent, but we don't need to beat each other over the head or put someone else's beliefs down. We could use this forum to learn from each other, or we could use it to scare folks off from Christianity, but mostly make sure you are involved in a faith community to which you are or can be accountable to.
Your babbling seems to borderline hysteria since you feel the need to answer everyone's comments when they aren't even directed to you. -- Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Jul 2, 2008, at 8:20 PM
I agree EM.
parkerbrothers,
Just to make this Clear, I was not commenting to YOU! I was commenting to *******Michael Bell******* The one who said he has recieved the calling.... If he has he would understand, the "Let Go, and Let God" as well as "Come as you Are" phrases that are used in "Church Ministries". I Did NOT say they came out of the bible.
Momof3&3step&1gran,
Unfortunately, the Bible gives a little different account of the things you mentioned. It is quite detailed on matters of the church. Let go, and Let God is not an admonishment I have seen yet in the Bible in reference to church conduct. A lot of what you say is true as far as quality of clothes go but the most of what you said is just not biblical. At least not to my knowledge yet. I am willing to look at it if you know where to reference me to it. -- Posted by parkerbrothers on Tue, Jul 1, 2008, at 8:35 PM
Let Go, and Let God is the same as "Not my way, But Gods way".
Psalms 46:10v. Be still, and know that I am God.
touches on the same subject.
When ministers get ready to preach Gods word, they pray to God that Gods' message is brought out to the church, and not their own personal message. All of this was commented to Michael Bell, you are not a minister, have not been called to preach Gods word, and is not "I don't think" the person who is doing these blogs. I like others are commenting and asking questions to ****Michael Bell*****. Why do you keep Interrupting, and trying to distract the conversations between "Michael Bells Blogs and the Bloggers"?
"once saved - always saved - if saved". -- Posted by parkerbrothers on Wed, Jul 2, 2008, at 3:48 PM
And where in the bible is this verse? I could say the same about things you post as well. Like I said I was not commenting to you, I was commenting to Michael Bell, it is somewhat Rude, and "DISTRACTING" of you to keep interrupting peoples comments and questions toward **Michael Bell**.
I think the Bible is very clear about matters of the church. Women should wear their head coverings.
I was afraid to add this part before, but oh well you only live once...And they should not be allowed to speak.
Sorry to make 3 comments in a row, but before anyone calls me sexist...You men should not get overly drunk at the Love Feast, and it is in very bad taste to brag to the congregation about your latest sexual exploits.
I think the Bible is very clear about matters of the church. Women should wear their head coverings.
-- Posted by memyselfi on Thu, Jul 3, 2008, at 5:10 AM
memyselfi,
Before anybody reads this and thinks I am a sexist let me clarify and say that I am not a sexist either but have wondered why this is not discussed and upheld in churches also. I have met few that are willing to even discuss it, let alone conform to it. There are plenty of things said likewise for the man but these are rarely looked after either. Why?
These admonishments were given by eye witnesses of a resurrected Christ and to the earliest of churches. These writers gave their lives for the defense of their cause which was the resurrected Christ. Why do you think they defended the cause as they did?
Could we say that we are lucky they never gave an admonishment that described the proper dressing of the donkey that was ridden to church or the amount of allowable toe exposure of the sandals they walked to church with. Perhaps the Amish culture has been given revelation of scripture that they see but we are blinded to. Just something to think about.
I know I still have not responded to you question on the words "hell" and "soul" and may be out of line asking for your opinion on something before I have answered your question. The question you asked of me is something I feel I am not prepared to answer at this time. I actually have been studying on the very issue you asked about for a while since the poster Uniquelies aroused my curiousity on the very subject and compelled me to look deeper into my actual beliefs and where I had obtained them from. I had rather not respond to your question until more facts and information have been obtained. It is not that I do not want to answer your question but it is hard to do that when I have some remaining questions myself about the subject. I will though respond to it when I feel I have an adaquet answer for myself.
If this is acceptable and you have time let me know what you think on the two questions I asked you.
I have no problem in coming as you are ,but there has to be a change of some kind.
A adulterer can't go on being one after saved.
A prostitute can't
A drug addict or alcoholic can't
a child molester or rapist or murderer a homosexual or thief or whatever else.
There has to be a change.
Come as you are but there must be a change.
And as far as my calling goes unless you have a wire tap between me and God you don't have a clue.
I know what I am supposed to do and am and will continue to keep doing it.
I have no problem in coming as you are ,but there has to be a change of some kind.
A adulterer can't go on being one after saved.
A prostitute can't
A drug addict or alcoholic can't
a child molester or rapist or murderer a homosexual or thief or whatever else.
There has to be a change.
Come as you are but there must be a change.
And as far as my calling goes unless you have a wire tap between me and God you don't have a clue.
I know what I am supposed to do and and will continue to keep doing it.
"once saved - always saved - if saved". -- Posted by parkerbrothers on Wed, Jul 2, 2008, at 3:48 PM
And where in the bible is this verse?
-- Posted by Momof3&3step&1gran on Thu, Jul 3, 2008, at 3:34 AM
Momof3&3step&1gran,
I mentioned that doctrine as a belief of mine. I did not say it was a verse of the Bible. However the entire Bible will give you overwhelming support to allow you have the peace and joy that can only come from knowing that you are eternally secure by the works of Christ. Not works of our own that we can boast of, but His precious works only.
A person after accepting this can be freed to go then and do works out of love instead of duty.
michaelbell,
You are dead on with your comment above. There will most assurredly be a change when one becomes justified through the works of Christ. You can not stop it from changing you when you experience the peace and joy given to you from the gift of eternal salvation. It is overwhelming.
A person may not undergo an instant,total change.
(But,don't be surprised if he does.)
He may find that the old behavior just doesn't "set right".
He may find it interferes with his spiritual growth and vice versa.
He may find it easier to avoid that behavior.
He may find ways to quit that he never had before.
Some sins may have been hard to avoid.
Could a child living on the streets refrain from stealing,fighting,selling drugs or his body as readily as someone who had control of his own life and wasn't struggling to survive?
We aren't told the proper lifestyle will come easy.
We aren't to assume it will make us popular.
We won't even leave this life having conquered all our demons.
But,we will have lain our sins at the feet of One who can defeat them and every day we nourish our new Spirit and neglect our fallen self gives us that more strength even as our old nature atrophies.
It isn't about having instant and total immunity to sin.
Salvation means that you have chosen God's way over any other,that you try to determine His will and that you trust Him to enable you to be your best even when you feel reluctant,confused or incapable.
We are works in progress whether we are the noblest of His creation or the most degraded.
While we needn't condone wrongdoers,we should emulate God and assume that there is a worthwhile person underneathe the sin who just needs a steady supply of Grace to flourish.
This is true whether we see the sinner on the street,in a pew or in our mirror.
quantumcat,
Great comment. We as Christians are an ongoing piece of work under constant molding of the potter.
That is so True quantumcat, good comment.
Michael Bell, I was not questioning your Calling to preach Gods Word. (That is going to be between you and God!) I was explaining to parkerbrothers what I have heard ministers pray before they preach their sermon; and that I was commenting to the one that recieved a calling, not him. Thank you for responding. Michael Bell Have you heard the phrases "Let go, and let God", or "Not my way, but Gods' way", or "Not my will be done, but Gods' Will be done"?
When God speaks to us through a ministry his message to me may be different to someone else. I Believe God speaks to everyone with the same message but also a message that applies strictly for that person as well. The message "Come as you are" can mean many things to different people, but it all still means to come to Jesus, repent your sins, live for God, a new life through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
To me Come as you are, could mean, Come to Jesus, the sinner I am and he will give me a New Life" I will change the way I walk (Live), change the way I talk (Praises and Thanksgiving to God the Most High) and instead of looking forward to wordly pleasures, look forward to being with the Lord.
It also could mean, "Come as you are", for those that always say I don't go to church because I do not have "Church Clothes", or I don't have money to put into church, worried about what people are going think of their appearance, or that they are a drunk, druggie, prostitute, and don't live right. I Believe God is saying he is not wanting just the saved and holy, but the sinners of all kinds "To Come, and hear Gods' message, so that he can change them to live a new life through Jesus Christ.
And the phrase of "Let go and let God" or "Not my will but Gods' will be done" to me is when I try, and try to change something, or make something happen and it just don't happen the way "I" want it to, I have to step back and pray to Let Gods' Will be done; "Not my way, but Gods way". "To let go, and Let God".
Momof3&3step&1gran, I mentioned that doctrine as a belief of mine. I did not say it was a verse of the Bible. -- Posted by parkerbrothers on Thu, Jul 3, 2008, at 8:24 AM
parkerbrothers, And the comments that I posted to Michael Bell is the same, beliefs I have heard spoken from ministers sermons after reading certain scriptures from the bible. But not actual Bible versus. Thank you for your response.
I Believe God is saying he is not wanting just the saved and holy, but the sinners of all kinds "To Come, and hear Gods' message, so that he can change them to live a new life through Jesus Christ.
Posted by Momof3&3step&1gran on Thu, Jul 3, 2008, at 6:52 PM
Momof3&3step&1gran,
You brought up a good point. Actually a great point. The church is not to turn away the unsaved. They should be the most welcome in a church.
The only ones that are to be removed from the Church are the professed Christians who refuse to repent of known sins. At least that is my understanding of the Bible. What do you think?
parkerbrothers, I waited until a new comment started before I answered you. I've noticed that the older ones get neglected when a new one starts. I do not mind that you do not want to answer the question at the moment. I was not really hoping for an answer to begin with. I was hoping that you, or someone else may be aroused enough to look into it. It is very interesting. If I can find it, I have a KJV that I have gone through a lot of the NT and changed some of the words to help me see how these changes play out. There is no answer that could be even close to accurate anyway. It all goes back to faith, interpretations and beliefs. The reason I waited until some traffic slowed down is that most likely there are several people that would not like how I am going to answer your question.
You asked "There are plenty of things said likewise for the man but these are rarely looked after either. Why?" Let me start by clarifying that I was not really being serious about the head coverings. I am not against it either. It is of no consequence to me how people choose to worship (short of human sacrifice involving me or mine). What I was pointing out, was that it is not so clear how the church should be run. There are many guidelines, but I guess to make it easy, there should have been specifics down to, and including the amount of exposed toe allowed. Major issues have been left out. Is it a solemn somber time, or a happy joyous event? Is there speaking in tongues and healing? Is there music, if so what kind? Is it on Saturday or Sunday? Who is allowed? Tradition has dictated all of these and they have changed through time and also evolved in parallel through time. Why people, in my opinion, do not "look after" these things is because they are not true Christians.
A true Christian would never accept much of the trash he/she is exposed to and not question anything. I have personally known 2 Christians in my life. One of them travels around to shelters in the south (hitch-hiking or walking) and there finds his food, shelter and what he calls his "flock". He will read and explain the bible for much longer than many listeners have the patience for. He will sit in the filthy floor with filthy people surrounding him (if he is lucky and can find several people to give him the time of day, as even homeless people have things to do) and he will do whatever he can do to make those people understand how he feels and know what he knows. He has very few successes. He is a smart person and could have a good job somewhere with a wife and kids, maybe a dog, maybe even a race car in the garage. He chooses that life based on his love of God. He is not on a search for power or ego. He wants to save souls.
I have also met many many people that profess their Christianity. These are people that may know a few parts of the bible that justifies what they believe and those parts usually give them the ability to look down on someone else. They are the proud and boastful. They seem to believe that since everyone in my church believes this, then it must be right therefore others are wrong. It does not matter what the Bible may say. I have met more than a few that would not even look and see. They would rather spend their time doing meaningless activities. I break this group up into 2 types. The first type are the ones looking for reassurance and acceptance. They are the complacent ones. The second type are the ones in fear. Fear of death, fear of Hell, fear of fear. Both types base their standing on comparisons to others and usually not to scripture. They seem to be more concerned about what society dictates than what the Bible may say. That includes the conservative, as well as the liberal postions. Neither has much to do with scripture as I understand it.
If you really want to know why I think things arent "looked after" I will tell you my opinion. No one really cares. The few conscientious members that do pop up, are soon so disillusioned with the church they leave. Churches do not have the ability to teach the Bible anyway. It is such a massive work, and to even understand it's meaning, you must have some knowledge about the times and places. It would take several lifetimes to learn just what has already been learned about the Bible. It is not a collection of works that most can just pick up, read several verses and walk away with an accurate understanding without considerable thought.
Even if the church could really teach the Bible, I doubt it would want to. The Bible is organized religions worst enemy. Much of the Bible is really about the status quo and how it should be over turned. The overarching themes are revolt rebellion and change. It speaks volumes about how the current way is not "the" way. It does this over and over again. It shows very clearly that humans cannot do anything right, and that if you think we are doing it right, you just may be on the wrong side.
All that aside, it still has its roots getting and keeping members. The church cannot alienate too many people or it will fail.
Sorry to write a book, but you asked. I'll answer the other one later. My fingers are tired and its the 4th and I am going to the park now to sit in the rain.
The only ones that are to be removed from the Church are the professed Christians who refuse to repent of known sins. At least that is my understanding of the Bible. What do you think?
-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Thu, Jul 3, 2008, at 8:04 PM
parkerbrothers to be honest, I have no knowledge of what the bible saids about removing members from the church.
I know that members that do corrupt things in the church, such as stealing, and I have heard of a member being removed from the church for stating a minister having relationship with someone he should not (False witness against thy neighbor), were removed from church. Each inicidents the church members had to vote on it. As far as Christians being removed from church because they refuse to repent their sins; I have no ideal about that. I believe Church of Christ requires members to come forward in front of the church and repent their sins, (Not Sure though). You should ask the person you have sin against to forgive you, but I believe the only person you should have to confess your sins to is God the father, his son Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit, which they Three are One.
Momof3&3step&1gran,
I think it sounds like you have a good knowledge of what the Bible says about church affairs.
The point I actually wanted to emphasize as being so very true was your earlier comment on..... "I Believe God is saying he is not wanting just the saved and holy, but the sinners of all kinds "To Come, and hear Gods' message, so that he can change them to live a new life through Jesus Christ."
Furthermore, not only should they be welcome to come hear God's message, I think we should be willing and want to carry the message to them that can not come for whatever reason they have for not coming. As you know the Gospel is good news, not only for you and I, but the whole world.
Thanks for taking the time to explain what you meant by the phrases "Let Go, and Let God" as well as "Come as you Are".
Furthermore, not only should they be welcome to come hear God's message, I think we should be willing and want to carry the message to them that can not come for whatever reason they have for not coming. -- Posted by parkerbrothers on Sat, Jul 5, 2008, at 7:37 AM
This is true too, BUT we can not force this on everyone; This has to be people that WANT you to come to them if they are not able to go and hear Gods message. (I have to admit I do not care for people to come knock on my door, and ask me can they read something for me, and invite me to their church, I rather they just have it sent to my mailbox.) But some people would just like a minister and some of the church members to come and say a prayer with them, It can lift their spirits right up. Prayer is powerful. Or a few to come by and read the bible, like Bible Study on Wednesdays, have a prayer dismissle with snacks. These are all good things to do with the elderly.
Younger groups need another type of approach. Like Bible trivias, make it like a game, crafts, prizes and of course snacks. All of these can be used to get Gods message out, sometimes you have to be creative; especially if God has Blessed you with that type of Gift. : ) I have been missing out on church too, because of work. We are not suppose to work on the Sabbath day we are suppose to keep it Holy. I got to make some changes, but want to make sure I'm doing the right changes.
Momof3&3step&1gran,
You are right and I did not mean to insinuate that we are to force ourselves on anyone. I just meant we should be willing to share it with anyone who wanted to hear it but was uncomfortable for any reason for attending a service.
parkerbrothers, I didn't think that you meant that; I just wanted to add that in there in case someone decides to go door to door knocking.
: )
Momof3&3step&1gran,
Although I never did like the door to door when they were knocking at my door years ago I have to admit that I have seen good come out of it for certain people. I also understand and respect the door to door efforts as their calling to the commandment to spread the Gospel.
I am not against the door to door attempts to spread the Good News. I just believe that each individual has the right to be left alone when they say no to the opportunity to hear the Good News anytime an effort has been made for them. It should be a choice for everyone.
parkerbrothers, You also asked "These writers gave their lives for the defense of their cause which was the resurrected Christ. Why do you think they defended the cause as they did?" My initial answer would be in the form of a question. Who does anyone give their live for a cause? For example, the suicide bombers the news loves to remind us of whenever they get an opportunity. Why does anyone volunteer to go fight any war?
There are a lot of factors, but I do not think any are altruistic. I believe it has its roots in how we view ourselves. How we identify with a larger cause can justify who we are and also prove our worth. I like to look at all belief systems in the same way. When I see someone that is a super patriot, I see someone that can find some self worth through that association. The same general psychological functions also apply to religion, or even sports teams fans to a lesser degree.
There have been more people throughout history than I care to even try and remember that have willingly given the highest price for really flawed causes. Do not forget that for every war we have fought, the enemy believed their side was right. Likewise there have been many religious causes that have not fared as well as Christianity into modern times, that many people have ultimately sacrificed for. I for one, cannot give the Christian martyrs any more credit than I do the other martyrs of history. That would be sort of like me pointing to the Kamikaze pilots of WW2 and asking why they decided to die the way they did, or the Nazis or the Jews in the revolt in the 1st century. I do not believe I could accept any belief justified by the number of willing martyrs.
There is another subject with the question of fulfillment, I will just continue that here to save me from finding it again. I did not really find your answer to be as substantial as I had hoped. If you believe all was fulfilled, then exactly what are your issues with homosexuality? The NT has very little to say on the subject, likewise for the Lords Day.
I do understand it is a tough question full of pitfalls and do not mean to push you. It is however important for me to get some idea of your beliefs before I can fully understand your comments. If the law is fulfilled completely, then you must discount all of the OT moral and ritual law, not just pick and choose what you think is appropriate.
I have met more than one educated (seminary) men that believe that the ritual law was all that was fulfilled, but that the moral law was not. This based on a verse "what must I do....". The reply listed a few of the commandments that are more moral. While I do think that is a quite weak apology, who am I to question their beliefs.
I am pretty sure if I were a believer, I would be a Seventh Day Adventist or in some similar group. The Bible Old and New is very clear about the Sabbath with only one section that provides some question, but appears to be talking about the other Sabbaths as opposed to the weekly one. Paul worshiped on the Sabbath. The Lords day was a day of work for the church. The collecting of money was an example of the work to be done on the Lords Day. I do not think people today realize the problems with ritual cleanliness involved in the Jewish and early Christian religions. Money was/is nasty, and certainly not allowed IN the church/temple.
I also basically agree with your timetable of the NT authorship. I do believe you are stretching a few years in the direction of Christ, but certainly it is possible that a few of the epistles were around a decade but most likely at around 2. Mark sometime between 60 and 70 and John at the end of the century. This is current scholarly thinking and will undoubtedly change in the future as it has in the past. We just do not know for sure. We do know that by the end of the third century the religion had grown (and changed)tremendously.
memyselfi,
You are just wasting your time even typing to these people. They will argue with you for no reason but to just argue. They are wrong, they know they are wrong and they continue to lie, steal and blaspheme Jesus because they don't want to look wrong.
I also basically agree with your timetable of the NT authorship. I do believe you are stretching a few years in the direction of Christ, but certainly it is possible that a few of the epistles were around a decade but most likely at around 2. Mark sometime between 60 and 70 and John at the end of the century. This is current scholarly thinking and will undoubtedly change in the future as it has in the past. We just do not know for sure. We do know that by the end of the third century the religion had grown (and changed)tremendously.
-- Posted by memyselfi on Tue, Jul 8, 2008, at 11:41 PM
memyselfi,
The link I posted, http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/ntboo......, was only a quick found link to a timetable that I thought was generally accurate and close to what I have come to believe. As I mentioned in that original post I thought it was close except for the gospel of Mathew of which they dated a little earlier than I thought. I have actually thought James was the probable first book written in 42 A.D. but as you said we will never know for sure and really the exact timetable does little to add or take away from the message.
Yes, by the end of the third century, Christianity had grown tremendously. The part of your statement about the "tremendous" growth that needs further recognition of is the fact it grew under an equal if not greater "tremendous" persecution. Only until early in the fouth century did the tremendous persecution slow if not stop.
As far as change goes I can not say that I think the message changed "tremendously". Actually I know it can be debated that it changed none at all.
Early on when you first posted on here you honestly and respectfully stated upfront you were an atheist of which I can respect. We all believe what we can believe and disbelieve what we can not come to believe. You, no doutedly, know the Bible well enough to understand the message. Out of curiousity, what is it that keeps you from believing and more importantly what do you believe? I think you understand that I am not condemning you or "judging" you as some like to say but am indeed curious to understand. I actually relate well to you as I was once of the same position as you and could not believe.
Most atheists and agnostics know far more about the Bible (dates, times, relevance, to whom things were written and to whom they were not) than Christians, which explains why they are atheist or agnostic. Not necessarily because they don't believe in a higher power, but because the Christian depiction is unrealistic, contradictory, and downright suitable for their own agenda...
Leaving out scriptures, adding scriptures and completely changing the meaning is not my idea of "God's Word"... God's Word wouldn't need refinement, re-editing, new editions, etc, yet Christians (the U.S.) continually do that every day. The Bible, just like Christianity has so many different versions it's hard to think those who read and believe so differently can be labeled as one religion.
darrick_04 ,
Most every new find of ancienct writing translate nearly word for word to the current King James translation. Tell us what has changed if you have a valid claim or are you just taking a stab at it.
What has changed??
I personally believe that people who want to live a lifestyle that differs with the scriptures are the ones making such claims, especially but not limited to the current homosexual uprising of desired preferences. The most early writings condemned the sin and so does the current.
What has changed??
Again, I have stated over and over when it has changed and who changed it, you disregard it as INSPIRATION. LOL.
EM, I do not think I am wasting my time at all. I enjoy the different opinions that so many people feel able to share. The arguing is okay too. I may understand why you think of it as being a waste of time though. It appears to happen when someones objective becomes to prove that they are right. Even if it starts as a discourse about opinions and beliefs, it can degenerate into an angry exchange where neither party understands the meaning of the other. What one may see as an obvious truth may be neither obvious or true to another, no matter how they try to explain it. A point made in an exchange like this should never be considered a framework to the conversation unless it is accepted by both parties.
Peoples opinions also change with time. I would worry about someone that never budged on a personal belief. For example I may tell you today that it is raining and when asked tomorrow, I may say it is not raining. That does not mean I lied, just that the situation as I see it has changed.
As I commented earlier, I am sure that there has been a lot going on in the past here that I am unaware of. I do still have your number and appreciate your offer to fill me in. I will contact you someday, but I do not want to prejudice my opinions of anyone too soon. I am sure we will meet shortly anyway through the internet thing though.
parkerbrothers, I did not check the link. I was just getting the basics of some of the other comments. I never go to a link. I use my PC for ebay, banking, occasionally reservations, and now for the TG site, but never surfing. I find that it is a waste of time that I do not have to spare. I could spend hours a day on the internet and not accomplish one thing. I also hate to delete cookies because I have to redo so much stuff. I find it easier to never pick them up.
I am not so sure I agree with your understanding of the "tremendous persecution" given the early church. It had its share to be certain, but likely no more than its share. These were different times and when I look at the environment, I cannot single out the Christians for being burdened with all of the mis-treatment, nor can I single them out for not giving others any mis-treatment themselves. It also depended a lot on where you lived. There were places that it was acceptable to be a Christian. There were also places that it was not acceptable. Just like today being homosexual is more accepted in parts of the U.S. and also places where it is not tolerated well. A lot depended then as it does now on the condition of the local regions and how they looked at their religion. I would have hated to be a Christian anywhere when the crops were bad, unless I didnt mind offering to another god. That was not only a burden for the Christians though to be sure.
Regarding the change of the message, I both agree and disagree with you. The words have changed very little as best we can tell. We do not have any of the earliest writings, but what we do have is amazingly consistent. There are parts that have been added to and taken from and changed. Some of these quite late with obvious motivations, but taken as a whole, there has been little done to change the words. That however is where I start moving away from the idea that it has not changed.
While it can be argued that the message has never changed, it is weak argument to my way of thinking. In the first century the religion went through a massive change. It, through the work of Paul and others, went from being the religion of Jesus to being the religion about Jesus. Jesus appears to have been an apocalyptic Jew. He was baptized by one, and it was a common way to view the Jewish religion. We are learning more and more about these groups. Jesus was not the first by any stretch of the imagination. The Essines appear to have very similar beliefs and we now have a lot of their works.
In the second century, There were so many Christianities, I cannot begin list them all. I think it would be a mistake to discount these groups. They were large groups and most had scripture to support their beliefs. They do not appear to be fringe groups of crazy folks. The message was constantly changing depending on where you were, and who you were talking to.
By the end of the third century there were rumblings of unity. The heresy hunters were both active and confused. There was no consistency in the church.
To me the word "change" does not even adequately convey the quantity or quality of what was going on. I could go on through the centuries, but I guess it is better for me to say that while the words changed very little to be sure, the interpretation and understanding of those words have been in a constant state of flux. Actually, I believe they still are.
Regarding your comment not directed to me about homosexuality, I do not disagree that all sins have been condemned by scripture. I again point to Romans 2. It was no accident that the Epistle to the Romans in particular dealt with homosexuality, but what do you think it was saying? What do you think the New Testament as a whole says about it? I agree that it is fornication, but I am not so sure about condemnation for the fornicator. Please try to let me know what you think. I will answer your other questions in about an hour...
What I have gathered over the past few weeks from these discussions is that some bloggers are able to share their beliefs and have back and forth discussions about them that actually inform the participants and the others who may only read. In this particular blog and some of the related ones, I feel I know a lot more about what memyseli and parkerbrothers believe and why than I do about Evil Monkey's beliefs. I am sorry EM but this is an ongoing discussion that spans several current blogs and I don't have time to be a researcher to find out everything you have posted in the past that may define your beliefs. If you have something substantive to add please do so. You have become very negative. Positive works better.
parkerbrothers, While I hate to take such an easy way out, I must define my beliefs not by what I do believe, but what I do not. I do not know if there was an uncaused cause or what it could have been. I do not believe in evolution as many atheists do. I have some problems accepting it on the whole. I do believe that species evolve and I do believe in the reality of natural selection, I however cannot go so far as to say I believe all life forms evolved from nothing, or even from a base. I also have a hard time accepting the matter-energy theory that looks as if it will accompany evolution into the future. I do not feel like I need to explain to myself why we are here at this point in my life. It was a question that troubled me greatly at one time though.
What prevents me from believing cannot be listed in such a short space and time. It started at a very young age when I realized that for me to believe in Jesus, I necessarily had to believe in and worship the Old Testament God. I think that obvious fact is lost on many Christians today. The OT is so far outside of what our Hellenized minds accept, it reminds me of the mythology of the times. The entire premise that we are here to be Gods companions is, to be honest, a stretch for me to believe and shows a considerable amount of arrogance.
That being said, I do believe in the basic psychology of humans. I can see it at work and I believe it has been the defining aspect of who we are, and how we came about. I also believe it explains why we even have religions to begin with.
I am not so sure I agree with your understanding of the "tremendous persecution" given the early church. It had its share to be certain, but likely no more than its share. These were different times and when I look at the environment, I cannot single out the Christians for being burdened with all of the mis-treatment, nor can I single them out for not giving others any mis-treatment themselves. It also depended a lot on where you lived. There were places that it was acceptable to be a Christian. There were also places that it was not acceptable.
Posted by memyselfi on Wed, Jul 9, 2008, at 7:53 PM
memyselfi,
I only inserted part of your post because each and every sentence of your post contains a lot of good subject matter that should and could be addressed but would require rather lengthy text. I feel each sentence of most of your posts could have a book length post written on each so I have to just take a sentence or two at a time to look at. Take it as a compliment.
As far as the subject of persecution of the early church goes I do believe it can and should be labeled as "tremendous". From day one we can feel the perceived fear of persecution as the apostles were hiding and fearful to answer the door as Mary knocked. Years of the same followed as persecutors such as Saul (Paul) came forth and overlooked the stoning of such as Stephen. Nero himself within the first 30 years saw to it that "believers" were torn to death by dogs or fastened to crosses and burned at night for lamps. Polycarp who was taught by the apostle John and lived through the latter of the first century into the first half of the second century was later burned at the stake for not reviling Christ. Persecution was indeed the "norm" escalating into an empire wide persecution under the reign of Decius who issued the decree of libellus in 249 of which everyone who failed to sacrifice to the emperor were held to torture and execution. The next emperor Valerian issued a decree in 257 that anyone caught in a Christian meeting or visiting a cemetery was to be beheaded. Only when the emporer Gallienus issued the edict of toleration in 261 was a Christian to even be tolerated. Even with this, persecution continued at various outbreaks until 311 when the Protocol of toleration was issued and for the first time could meet and worship in public. I feel that in light of the fact that for the first 281 years in was illegal to meet and worship and considering the punishments given to persistent believers it can truly be called the Great Persecution. All other religions if you want to call them that were allowed free freedom of expression. Only Christians were dealt with in such a degree and manner of persecution.
As a side note I would like to mention that this persecution brings forth something that needs mentioning that seperates the followers of Christ from religions. The more they were persecuted the more they became. All known risings of a leader with followers will diminish when both the leader and original followers are persecuted and executed. Only Christ and his followers carry forth through 2000 years and remain today.
parkerbrothers, While I hate to take such an easy way out, I must define my beliefs not by what I do believe, but what I do not.
Posted by memyselfi on Wed, Jul 9, 2008, at 8:54 PM
memyselfi,
As you probably know the statement in your above post has been something that irritates me with a lot of people on here. However, it is not the statement so much that causes the irritation as it is the attitude that usually comes along with it that seems to want to condemn people that "do believe" and have a declared faith.
As I have said before, I respect you and do not sense that attitude with you. You clearly state that you do not believe but at the same time you do not condemn me for my belief either nor do you try to sway me into disbelief with you. I also have said I can relate to you and understand you because I myself have resided where you do now. I do wish you could move from your position into a state of belief and experience the Joy that comes with it but I do understand the task it is.
What prevents me from believing cannot be listed in such a short space and time. It started at a very young age when I realized that for me to believe in Jesus, I necessarily had to believe in and worship the Old Testament God. I think that obvious fact is lost on many Christians today. The OT is so far outside of what our Hellenized minds accept, it reminds me of the mythology of the times. The entire premise that we are here to be Gods companions is, to be honest, a stretch for me to believe and shows a considerable amount of arrogance
Posted by memyselfi on Wed, Jul 9, 2008, at 8:54 PM
memyselfi,
You continually bring up great points that are really at the heart of the matter. You are correct when you said that you realized in order to believe in Jesus you must believe in the Old Testament God. As you probably know, I believe They are One and the Same as is the third part of the Godhead of the Holy Spirit. I also struggled with accepting this God of the Old Testament and everyday I see people likewise struggle with it. It is hard for all of us as humans influenced and tempted by the evil one to reconcile and accept the God of the Old Testament but it can and actually must be done in order to be set free.
I understand and relate to you when you say that... "The entire premise that we are here to be Gods companions is, to be honest, a stretch for me to believe and shows a considerable amount of arrogance."
I too struggled with that and came to terms with it only when I realized that actually I could not believe in a God who was anything less than these things. I grew to understand and respect that the potter has a right to mold the pots as he sees fit and a little of His arrogance puts a little flavor and character into the pots. If I was capable of creating "everything" I would probably have more than arrogance to me. I might have a little wrath, a little love, a little mystery, maybe a little of "everything" in my character?
parkerbrothers, I do understand why you believe the persecution was tremendous, but I just do not see the history that way. In the early years there was very little concern about the Christians except from some of the Jewish groups. The way society worked under the Romans was pretty simple, do not cause trouble and you wont have a problem. This is shown in the Bible as well as Roman history. When Jesus had his triumphant entry, where were the guards waiting to take him away? Where was the outrage? It was not until the incident at the temple that there was a problem at all, and even then, it could be argued that Pilate was more than fair. There had been many years that the temple had major problems before and after Jesus had his day there. It could also be argued (I would not attempt it myself) that in one day at that same temple there were more Jews killed than all the Christian Martyrs in the first 300 years of Christianity combined. It was a trying time for the Jews and the Romans alike. The Romans had to keep the peace, the Jews wanted liberty. The Romans apparently did not even differentiate between the two groups for many years.
The way that I understand Roman religion is that it was not concerned with what you believed or thought, only in the cultivation of the gods. It was not a moral religion, but the proper ritual acts of worship at the appropriate time was pretty important in some places even though it was not too much of a burden for most.
While we do see Paul having problems, It is pretty clear the Romans saved his life and if he did not request a trial would have been probably whipped and released, you also have to remember that he was allowed traveling companions, allowed to write extensively. The authorities knew where the churches were, and if the didnt know and were looking for them, they just had to follow the companions.
Neros persecution was somewhat limited in place and time. It was well known even at the time what was happening. (It was interestingly also replayed this past century in Germany in the night of broken glass)
Decius did make laws that involved the sacrifice to the state gods, but the law was enforceable for everyone equally. The timeline for this particularly nasty action was just a few years though. It never really even became a reality as he envisioned it would. I am not trying to demean the lives lost, but in comparison, it was a minor event in history.
I would say that to my understanding, you left out the greatest tribulation to the early Christians taking place at the beginning of the 4th century. But this too was limited and depended a lot on where exactly you lived.
I also am not sure I can accept your belief that Christians were the only group to have endured persecution like they did. The most obvious group that had to live in the same environment would be the Jews. They are one group that have also made it through to today despite enduring many more centuries of persecution. Much of it at the hands of Christians.
When Jesus had his triumphant entry, where were the guards waiting to take him away? Where was the outrage?
Posted by memyselfi on Thu, Jul 10, 2008, at 11:48 AM
memyselfi,
The time had not yet come. It had to happen on the day it did.
The most obvious group that had to live in the same environment would be the Jews. They are one group that have also made it through to today despite enduring many more centuries of persecution. Much of it at the hands of Christians.
Posted by memyselfi on Thu, Jul 10, 2008, at 11:48 AM
Which Christians were identified as persecuting the Jews in the manners and methods we have discussed?
Decius did make laws that involved the sacrifice to the state gods, but the law was enforceable for everyone equally. The timeline for this particularly nasty action was just a few years though. It never really even became a reality as he envisioned it would. I am not trying to demean the lives lost, but in comparison, it was a minor event in history.
-- Posted by memyselfi on Thu, Jul 10, 2008, at 11:48 AM
memyselfi,
While indeed it was forced on everybody it was particularily perscecutive to the Christians as they would have been the primary group to disobey it and suffer the consequences. I see it a lot like our speeding laws are enforced on everybody also but only the ones that speed are affected by it and suffer.
The way society worked under the Romans was pretty simple, do not cause trouble and you wont have a problem. This is shown in the Bible as well as Roman history.
-- Posted by memyselfi on Thu, Jul 10, 2008, at 11:48 AM
memyselfi,
I think it was a little more complex than simple. Yes, that applied to almost if not every religion except Chrisrianity. In the very first few of Christianity it was Paul watching Stephen being stoned to death. In the same time period he was obtaining letters of authorization from the chief priest to persecute Christians in Damascus and cut loose on a 130 mile journey "breathing out threatenings and slaughter." From everything I have studied it was not an "open air" anywhere to be found for any length of time being a Christian the first 281 years.
parkerbrothers, Okay I found 1 question: "Which Christians were identified as persecuting the Jews in the manners and methods we have discussed?" I may not have to answer that at all. I do not think the Christians were strong enough as a group to do a whole lot to anyone before well into the 4th century, what I was referring to was the "many more centuries" that followed. I can go into those centuries, but doubt that I need to. I think that was a mis-communication, but if not, please let me know. In the first 3 centuries, the Christians only persecuted other Christians to my understanding.
I do understand your outlook on the historical record. I do not think that we disagree on the basics, only the overall effects. While I cannot agree that there were not many places and times that the early Christians lived safe and prosperous lives, I can accept your opinion.
You are not the only person I have associated with that has the same beliefs. Now I'll get way off the subject. I think the reason we get different meanings from the same history has more to do with how we process the information we are given than the actual information. We tend to see things in a gestalt or form that takes place in a narrative. We tend to reject the things that do not fit easily into our narrative and cling a little more closely to what does. People seem to have different thresholds of what is acceptable before shutting out the questionable material completely. I refer to it as "flipping switches". If someone is perceptive, they can actually see it happen to someone else. It automatically puts the person into defense mode and any rational conversation is basically over at that point. How on a scale of low medium or high would you rate your threshold? I know it is higher than some commenting on these forums, but I fear I may be pushing it, and that is not my intention. What I am looking for is a clear understanding of what you believe and why. There will be times when we cannot see the same events in the same way, but I am not trying to change your beliefs or prove them wrong.
In an earlier comment you said that you did not think I wanted you to share my beliefs. You are 100% right. I would not wish my beliefs on anyone that has something (anything) that they do believe in. Having faith sounds like a good alternative to the nothingness.
I do want to ask one more question on the subject of persecution though, if you wouldnt mind. The historical record is pretty clear about the numbers of Christians that sought out martyrdom. Why is it that these Christians had to seek it if it were so widely available?
memyselfi,
Your question as to my threshold is not an easy question to answer with an exact answer. It would vary with every topic of discussion. If it was a topic of which I have done little study I would say that my threshold would be extremely high. If it is on a topic that I have dwelt on and studied over a period of time using numerous sources and cross references them to actual historical accounts,documents and records I would admittedly probably only have a low to medium low (sounds like we are cooking). I think a lot of my threshold would be also determined by the topics themselves. If it is something that I have a hunger and craving to learn about it would create a higher threshold with me. If the topic of discussion were about the latest fashion in clothing or new vehicle body style I would have a low threshold whereas if the topic was on new neighborhood developments or the study of Christ I would have a high threshold. So I guess by now you can see it would be a weighted average of time spent studying and the actual topic itself.
I appreciate the concern you have for the possibility of pushing my threshold. I do not consider you as doing that and know it would be unintentional if you did. I have no problem looking at the other side or points of possible contradiction. If I have a problem with anything it is only someone telling me I am wrong in my belief but offerring no other explanation as to why it is wrong nor from what sources do they draw their opinion from.
The very things I believe the most in are the things I have tried hardest to disprove in my life. I have found that the best way for me to come to faith or belief in anything is to use a method of attempt to disprove. If it is worth believing it will stand the test of disprove. Actually the truer a subject is, the more it will show with every attempt to disprove. Of all topics I found this especially true with the study of Christ. The harder I tried to disprove Him to myself the stronger the case for Him became.
In the last paragraph of your above post you asked the question of why did the Christians seek out martyrdom if it was so widely available and you commented that the historical record is pretty clear about the numbers of christians that sought it. I am unable to answer that question due to not recognizing there was notable records that confirm this to be an issue as you have presented it. I do find it hard to imagine that any significant number of Christians got up in the morning and dressed appropriately for a burning at the stake or feeding to the lions. My threshold definitely allows me to entertain information on that topic and would be appreciative to it.
In the first paragraph of your above post you mentioned that....." In the first 3 centuries, the Christians only persecuted other Christians to my understanding." What Christians persecuted other Christians in the first 3 centuries? I am unfamiliar with that topic and again would appreciate any information on it.
PB, I do not have much time as I am leaving shortly to go out of town, but will be back Sunday and resume. I will try to find the time before I leave to dig out a couple of my books so I can tell you exactly which heresy hunters were more aggressive than others. (I will have to dig the books out. There were a lot of hunters to remember) And also exactly where/when the martyrs sought out their Kingdom. i hope you have a good weekend...
PB, I will have to reply tomorrow. I came to TG just for you, but got long-winded before I got here. I am tired now and have not even cracked the first book this weekend(it was a lot busier than I had imagined), but will be back on tomorrow night. ......
Great. I will check back later.
parker brothers, Sorry it has taken so long, but I have been busy trying to fit all summer in the few weeks left. I actually have not even had the time to do any research, but here are a few I cheated and found online. I only have one for you to check out about the persecution, and it is actually from the bible and is not exactly what I was looking for, but it is a start. Gal. 2 1-14 More tomorrow.
These are from people I think you can accept as Christian historians. I have intentionally not included any Ehrman or similar historians which has narrowed down my choices considerably.
F. F. Bruce says that the Christians' "very resoluteness in the face of suffering and death, which might in itself have won respect from a Stoic, was explained not as commendable fortitude but as perverse obstinacy....Marcus despised what seemed to him the crass superstition of the Christian beliefs, which disqualified them from the respect due to others who maintained their principles at the cost of life itself." For Aurelius, it was good to die for something significant, but not for something as silly as what the Christians believed. Furthermore, Christians went to their executions with a show of willingness that he considered theatrical display which was anathema to the calm spirit appreciated by the Stoics.
In his few shorts years on the throne, Emperor Decius Trajan undertook to restore the old Roman spirit. In A.D. 250 he published an edict calling for a return to the pagan state religion. Local commissioners were appointed to enforce the ruling. According to Philip Schaff, "This was the signal for a persecution which, in extent, consistency, and cruelty, exceeded all before it." It was the first to extend over the whole empire, so it produced more martyrs than any other persecution.
When people were suspected of being Christians, they were given the opportunity of offering sacrifice to the gods before the commissioners. Certificates were issued to prove a person's loyalty to the pagan religions. Many Christians gave in to the pressure. Those who didn't were put in prison and repeatedly questioned. Rulers weren't looking for martyrs; they wanted to see the Christians conform. Christians who stood their ground were subject to confiscation, exile, torture, imprisonment, and death. Some rushed forward "to obtain the confessor's or martyr's crown." Some, however, obtained certificates through bribery or forgery. Those who offered sacrifices were excommunicated.
In his work called Apology, the Latin apologist Tertullian made this now-famous comment: "The oftener we are mown down by you, the more in number we grow; the blood of Christians is seed."
Some early Christians sought out and welcomed martyrdom. Roman authorities tried hard to avoid Christians because they "goaded, chided, belittled and insulted the crowds until they demanded their death."193 One man shouted to the Roman officials: "I want to die! I am a Christian," leading the officials to respond: "If they wanted to kill themselves, there was plenty of cliffs they could jump off."194 Such seeking after death is found in Tertullian's Scorpiace but was certainly not the only view of martyrdom in the Christian church. Both Polycarp and Cyprian, bishops in Smyrna and Carthage respectively, attempted to avoid martyrdom.
memyselfi,
I still question your comments that Christians sought out martyrdom and that Christians were persecuting other Christians in the first 3 centuries. Galatians 2: 1-14 you mentioned says nothing about this persecution that I can see. Is that the actual text you were referring me to?
parkerbrothers, I still do not have anything more yet, but will be looking some more very soon. I have had another busy weekend. I am a little disappointed that you can not at least give me a nod and accept that at least the willing martyrs were a historical fact with just the little I have given so far. I do not see how you can not see it. Christianity is saturated with it. In Acts when Paul could have left prison, he chose to stay, why?
I guess many Christians today would willingly be martyrs if they believed that is what the Lord intended for them and the opportunity was available. It is a high and valued calling for a Christian. I have heard several people in these forums looking forward to the second coming. It is the same general idea of giving up this life for the future Kingdom.
As far as the passage I gave, while I accept that it was weak, it has some meaning, James was afraid, but afraid of who? Why was he afraid of his brothers in Christ? I will also go through the bible and see if I can find enough small issues like that to attempt to let you at least understand my opinions. I fear it is going to be time consuming though. As I am sure you already know, there is not the kind of commentary available that makes something like this easy to prove beyond any doubt. For example, we can both agree that the church grew greatly in between the 2nd and 3rd century, but if I were to take the position that I disputed it and asked for you to show me when and where, it would be a challenging task. You would find more nuances than historical references. I will try to fit in an hour or so tonight though..
memyselfi,
I can most diffinitely give you a nod and say yes I believe there were willing martyrs. However, there is a difference to me in be willing and seeking it out. Your post said "Some early Christians sought out and welcomed martyrdom". I do acknowledge that some of them having to face the reality of not being able to stop it knew that it was nothing to do but allow it. I do not however believe that they sought it. As I said earlier I just can not see someone getting up and thinking about how to dress appropriately for a burning at the stake or being fed to the lions.
I see death row inmates that are in same predicament. They are not seeking it out but they know they might as well be willing to accept the reality coming forth. What do you think?
I also am still missing the point on Galatians 2: 1-14 being about Christians persecuting Christians. Do you think you gave me the wrong book to reference by mistake?