OK, lets take it a bit further. You and others who say the KJV and other modern bibles based on it are corrupt because King James had it translated to suit his political and social ends. In that case, why didn't he just have it overly condone homosexual relationships instead of leaving in language that has been continually used to condemn homosexuality?

Go back to before the King James version and you will see.

Great point Devan. If what Evil Monkey posted and says is true then the Evil Monkey original must have really, really, really condemned homosexuality.

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out which way King James would have swayed the text if he was a homosexual. Poor choice of research material to support that cause.

Like all liberals I could scream "my first amendment rights"

What gives me the right is the Bible for it holds more precedence to me than any constitution.

If I am stopped here I will start my own website and continue spreading God's word without restraints.

If you don't like what I believe then don't come and read it.

Go and find a more friendly website to read or comment on.

You are entitled to your comments the same as I would be if there was a Atheist or gay rights blog or a satanic or whatever else that I did not agree with.

My blog is for my thoughts and I thank the paper for allowing me this forum if they take me off that is their choice, no hard feelings.

The question is would it be because of valid reasons or because I am a Christian with biblical views.

The Christian's are being silenced, those that let themselves be silenced that is.

But parkerbrothers, If I remember you condemn earlier versions of the bible also? So which is it? You can't just pick and choose what you believe. Poor choice eh? No matter what, my point is still clear, the Bible is missing books, text has been removed and changed.

devan,

And you basically have repeated what I stated previously regarding the books that were taken out, changed and "mistranslated" on purpose.

How can anyone trust what MAN has done to the Bible? Whether he be Jewish, Gay, Gentile, Roman, Scholar, or a mass-murderer, It doesn't change the fact the Bible has been manipulated more times than any other book in history.

Michael,

Christians are not being silenced, only the loud mouthed ones that preach hate, fear, and lies. And I, too, have valid reasons on my biblical views. How do you know if you are a Christian? Do you proclaim to be one or does someone else view you as one? Basically what I am asking is, How do you know?

So you think your site is provocative and enlightening or do you purposely look for things to stir the pot just so you can sit back and get your jollies? I know your type, the church will never happen, You just don't have the knowledge to do it. The only reason you want to do it is because you want a free ride through life. If that is the case, become a politician. They can lie, cheat and steal and not have to use Jesus, oh wait nevermind Bush did that...

Are we sure the suit against the Bible sellers has about the same level of stupidity as the McDonald's coffee lawsuit?

"79 year old Stella Liebeck suffered third degree burns on her groin and inner thighs while trying to add sugar to her coffee at a McDonald's drive through.

(Third degree burns are the most serious kind of burn.)

McDonald's knew it had a problem.

There were at least 700 previous cases of scalding coffee incidents at McDonalds before Liebeck's case.

McDonald's had settled many claim before but refused Liebeck's request for $20,000 compensation, forcing the case into court.

Lawyers found that McDonald's makes its coffee 30-50 degrees hotter than other restaurants, about 190 degrees.

Doctors testified that it only takes 2-7 seconds to cause a third degree burn at 190 degrees.

McDonald's knew its coffee was exceptionally hot but testified that they had never consulted with burn specialists.

The Shriner Burn Institute had previously warned McDonald's not to serve coffee above 130 degrees.

The jury came back with a decision- $160,000 for compensatory damages.

But because McDonald's was guilty of "willful, reckless, malicious or wanton conduct" punitive damages were also applied.

The jury set the award at $2.7 million.

The judge then reduced the fine to less than half a million.

Ms. Liebeck then settled with McDonald's for a sum reported to be much less than a half million dollars.

McDonald's coffee is now sold at the same temperature as most other restaurants."

Maybe,one of these suits might be as ridiculous as this case the ACLU is handling.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Legal/Default....

I'd not take good sleuths like Mason and Matlock from their criminal cases but I might hope Douglas Wambaugh and Bobby McDermott would bring the issues before judges like Henry Bone or Andrew Hardy.

There's no telling what Denny Crane or the folks at McKenzie-Brockman would come up with.

While the KJV is far from perfect or fully representative of all the Christian beliefs of the time, it is fairly accurate in most regards to the canonized books, from what I have seen comparing it to more critical texts. The differences are pretty minor, well known and not intended to change someones views about homosexuality. That being said, we do not have any of the earliest manuscripts yet, we just have to guess what they said and hope we eventually find some in a cave somewhere in that war torn area provided they are not blown up in the meantime. At the time the NT was written, sexuality in general for Christians was more of an issue than who you were having it with. Most of the apocalyptic Jews were ascetic and in turn, many early Christians were. I think the confusion stems from the influence of the Romans in the time between the Old and New Testaments and also the early Christians reaching out to Jews and Gentiles alike.

quantum, I think the coffee was in fact much too hot to be served to drivers in little Styrofoam cups also. I am glad someone did sue so that more people have not been severely burned.

Michael, I am a little concerned about the texts you are reading. There should not be a Jewish Apocalypse of John. The Jewish Bible is what Christians call the Old Testament for the most part, give or take a little and mix it up some. It was mostly all written in Hebrew or Aramaic. You should probably not be looking at New Testament texts that were translated from Greek into Hebrew for the Jews as I do not believe it would be accepted by serious scholars of theology, if there is an actual really old text like that available. You probably need to question its accuracy and its age, just to make sure. You may be reading something newer than even the KJV.

2. The Hebrew Old Testament clearly documents a sexual relationship between the prophet Daniel and a man named Ashpenaz, and indicates that God put Daniel into that relationship.

-- Posted by nascarfanatic on Sun, Jul 27, 2008, at 10:03 PM

Ashpenaz was a eunuch. You can find all sorts of pseudo homosexual relationships in the bible if that's what your bias leads you to find. But with a eunuch?

I dont think I have ever heard of the Christians having a problem having their voices heard. They seem to be the loudest voices at times and seem to have many laws that favor them.

Tell me, have any gay people denied your right to marry or have certain legal rights? I dont think so . . . so you are doing just fine. And to be honest, I know several gay people who are very good people and are more "christian" than many people I see in church. That is why I get upset when people like you want to cast stones at people you do not understand and who you have judged. Plus, there are deviant gay people just like they are deviant Christians and etc. You can't judge a whole group by the actions of just one.

You are akin to a child who is afraid of the boogeyman under the bed when we all know such things dont exist.

What does that have anything to do with being homosexual.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Jul 28, 2008, at 6:42 AM

The common usage of eunuch is a person that is asexual usually because of castration at an early age. There are other variations but it seems a stretch to say that Daniel was in a homosexual relationship with a eunuch.

jaxspike,

Why do you come to Michael's blogs if you don't like what he says? Why does it make you so uncomfortable when Michael speaks of true religion? Why does it make you mad when Michael says something against your people? Don't be mad at him, be mad at yourself for the choices you make. Michael chooses to be a Christian; you choose to be...whatever. YOU JUST NEED TO GET OVER YOURSELF.

I agree with Michael in that the Bible is against gays however I also feel that this is their choice. They can swing in any direction that they want to.

The only thing that I dislike is the gay rights crap that gets shoved in the face of us straight people. I also don't like having to explain to my children why 2 guys or 2 girls are making out on television.

More and more people are trying to find things to sue over, it is almost like winning the lottery. I work with a guy that is just itching to sue someone so he can quit work. Typical get rich quick crap.

time2relax,

You call what michael writes about, true religion? Have you read his crap? Or do you just skim over to the stuff you want to agree with?

I personally am glad that the Bible was translated in English for me to read. I don't read nor speak Hebrew, Greek, Latin nor Russian. Hell, I have enough trouble reading and writing English. All those other translations and transcripts are out of the question for me. From what I have seen on TV, all those manuscripts and scrolls and nothing more than scrape pages with larger holes in them than the page itself. All the missing words have to be filled in by man. That being the case, man could make the scrolls say anything they want to by putting anything in the blanks. I just can't put my faith in holy pages that are litterally full of holes. They make interesting reading but!

The Old Testament is what the Jews believe is the true bible, if I understand it right. Yet the old testament is the laws that Christ said He fulfilled and are for the lawless not the righteous. By His Grace and love the law is done away with. We are no longer under the law but His Grace. It is only thru Jesus that ya'll will go to the Kingdom of Heaven. There is nothing else that will get you to heaven. In my bible, all that is explained in the "New Testament". If you jews don't believe in the New Testament....?? And if you do believe in the New Testament, why do you says we will be judged by the Old Testament...??

I personally don't know anyone who knows everything about the current Bible, yet I read so many of ya'll who seem to know everything about the first Bible, the Hebrew Bibles, the Greek Bibles, the Jewish Bible, the Bible written back in ????. I am limited to my current Bibles of today that I can get my hands on and read. These current Bibles explain everything. It explains creation of everything and when it was done. It gives us the dates of events that happened in the bible. It explains unbelievable story that we must take on faith if we want to believe in God. It explains about Noah and the impossible world wide Flood and when it happened, where the water came from, how long the flood lasted and how long the water stayed on the earth and where the ark rested. Jonah who was swallowed up by a large mammal. That is an impossibility but yet we have to believe it happened. Moses parting the water of the red sea and doing miracles in the wilderness for the people. Abraham's wife Sarah giving birth at the old age of 100. The Bible speaks of that being impossible at that time yet Noah was 500 years old before he begot his three sons. It explains what happens to us when we die. Where we go and what we do as dead people. It explains who is in the Rapture and why. What these people will be doing and for how long. It explains exactlly who will be in the first phase of the first resurrection and why and what they will be doing and why. WHo will be in the second phase of the resurrection and why and what happens at that time. It explains the Battle of Armagedon and who is in it. It clearly explains that Armagedon isn't the last battle. It explains what happens after the resurrection of everyone. It tells you where paradise is and the tree of life. It describes the new heaven and how small it is and where it will be and who gets to go into heaven.

Why in the world would anyone need or want any other bible?

In the Shelbyville Times Gazette on page 8A, Sunday, July 27, 2008 there was an article by Danny Tyree called "The Kernel of truth shall make you free?" He claims that the PBS "Nova" program will premiere "The Bibles Buried Secrets" on November 18, 2008. This show is another documentary the Anti-christ "Bible experts" and "archaeologists" put together to put doubt into the minds of weak christians and believers alike. I enjoy watching these antichrist shows to see what they are going to come up with next. All ya'll antichrist nonbelievers should get a kick out of it.

Hope I don't miss it. I love a good fairy tale now and then.

Here's something ya'll might like also. It is Criss Angel walking on water and other unbelievable things he does. These miracles do not come from God but he is able to do them because he believes he can do them. Last night on his show, he walked on top of the water at Boulder Beach at Lake Mead. It was very interesting. His show airs on A&E Tv Wednesday nights at 9:00 p.m.. You can watch it now on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8Gikuu5B...

Remember, this isn't from God, but the Bible says, if you have the faith the size of a mustard seed you can do anything. The Bible says God hates Magicians, so...??? This is proof to me that you don't have to be a born again Christians to do Miracles...parkerbros and that miracles do happen today.

Is Criss Angel or David Blaine the "First Beast" who comes up out of the sea...?

Okay Quantumcat, calm them down and let them know it is okay to watch these antichrist programs because they won't harm them in any way and these antichrist stories won't convence them to disbelieve in the bible and confuss them into worshipping the false christ when he comes. Sooth their minds and thoughts so they don't have to think for themselves when the time comes to know what they are to believe and not believe. These documentaries are anti-christ and people do believe them because it takes the faith away. They don't have to believe when the facts are there, even if they can't be proven.

if people would quit trying to interpret the bible in their own words, they would get more satisfaction by studying the word of god and doing his work and try every day to live sin free which is impossible. i do not condone homosexuality but god tells us to love everyone. michael really just needs to get his own website and quit using the times gazette, people only read it because it is on this site. i believe he needs to quit giving his opinion and move on.

adder,

The same could be said for me or you. If we do not like his opinion we can move on.

I personally do not like reading murder mysteries. Guess what? I just do not read them. It is a choice? Even if we were genitically inclined to read these blogs we could still make a choice not to.

I enjoy them and have made the choice to continue.

Enjoy your freedom and make the choice you have before you. What is so difficult about it?

Something you could believe in.

I came from Florida. I've seen and walked on all the ocean front property I want to. With all this rain I don't need anymore ocean fronts or ocean backs.

In Florida atleast the builders were smart enough to build the houses 22 inches above the crown in the road.

Up here I have hung drywall in houses that flooded before, during and after a hard rain because of stupid builders and their ocean front properties. I hung drywall in a Motel in Murfreesboro at Franklyn exit that floods after a good rain because it was built in a flood zone. Not sure if it was stupidity of the builders, or they just wanted to make a fast buck and get out.

Homes are one of the biggest American Made Products in America and I can honestly say they are one of the worst made products in America.

They even hire foreigners to build them now, so they won't even be American made anymore. I could write a book about the shoddy workmanship and inferior products used in American Homes. The plumbing system in many homes in TN was banded in California a few years back, because it leaked and was no good. After I seen the report on TV, the builders in middle Tennessee started using the same system in their houses because it was cheaper.

No, you can keep your properties.

No need to reply, because I won't be back. This is my last entry.

I have read enough of the bible to know we are all going to hell! We can not live without sinning everyday and we can not crucify Jesus a second time. Only 8 people out of millions survived the flood in Noah's day. Today there are over 6,713,075,729 people on the world. Soon it will be 7 Billion. Out of that 7 billion people, less than 1 million people will be standing on the earth when Christ is done. Everyone else will be dead. How many of you will refuse the mark of the beasts and loose the money you have in your bank or kiss your job goodbye. How will you buy food or make payments on your car and home and education or even buy gas without the mark? If you accept the mark of the beast you will be killed by Jesus when He returns. If you don't accept the mark, you will die anyway of starvation or murder. Are you that sure of your faith that you will be spared when only 144,000 are going to be in the Rapture. That is 144,000 jewish men out of a possible 7,000,000,000 people who will be raptured up. Do YOU actually believe YOU will be in that Rapture and miss the Trials and Tribulation period ???????????? That's 1 person in every 7,000 people. And it only includes men.

The longer it takes before it happens just means less and less people will be left standing. 8 people. Think about it! Only 8 people lived to tell about the flood. God saved more animals than He did people in the first world wide destruction. SO YOU Believe you are so SPECIAL that YOU will be SPARED? You will be one of the 144,000 out of 7,000,000,000. Stop now! These 144,000 are male jews who have never been defiled by women. Out of 304,719,374 Americans, how many of them are even jews?

Read Rev. 7:1-8 and Rev 14:1-5.

See you in Heaven...I think not!

Unique-Lies, The origins of our accepted Bible are very important. The tiny scraps of paper than can show even how a few sentences have evolved or stayed the same are priceless. It does not take much to change the meaning. Something as small as a comma in the right place can either help to justify a certain opinion, or cause it problems. Most of us common people do not read all the original languages, but we can learn some key words that tend to cause the most trouble and use our judgment in how to interpret these words. Most of the earlier complete manuscripts have already been compared and there are books written in english that show only the discrepancies. It would be a little paranoid to believe that people just put whatever they choose in the gaps. The gaps are not the concern. It is what is there that is studied and compared. You may be surprised to know how few original writings we have of the NT from the first few centuries.

As far as what Christ fulfilled, that is exactly the kind of question that the "Bible Experts" are trying to get to the heart of. Your thoughts about Grace are justified and understood, but so could some others. It is just not that clear how a Christian should relate to the scriptures. (In the NT the OT is what is referred to as scripture. The NT was not even around).

All Bibles are translations and versions of the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek originals. Time and distance change exactly what the words mean so well intending people have through time made some minor changes. You state that the current Bible explains everything. I think it has some gaps in its explanations. I think the biggest mistake of Christianity was to finalize the Canon. The Church soon realized this, so it started to add various writings that were not part of the Bible, but were to have the same importance and in some cases more importance. The Jewish religion is an adaptable one. The Roman Catholic still is adaptable as well. When Christians Protestants went to solo scripture during the reformation, they locked themselves into a less than perfect non-changing theology.

Michael, Paul was a Roman. The original 12 were Jewish, but it is likely that most of them could not write. Even our Gospels are written in narrative form so we can be pretty sure none were written by the original followers of Jesus. You said that "you cant take the Jewishness out of Jesus" but that is exactly what Paul did. I do think that before you start your church you may need to really think about doing some soul searching and follow that up with a lot of study. I am not trying to be mean, or to make you have doubts, but a church leader is held to a higher degree of accountability. That is one thing the Bible is clear on. You will have real life problems at your church. For example, imagine a young teen that has been in your church for years came to you concerned that he was having homosexual thoughts and had prayed and tried to stop it, but could not. You would need more than condemnation to help this boy and it would be your responsibility to help him. Telling a sinner that they are going to Hell is not going to change much, or help the situation at all. There are many examples I could give of how real life problems will need to be addressed. You need to be prepared to assist these people through your knowledge and understanding. I believe you already have the will, the faith and the conviction though.

As far as Paul his name was Saul and he was of the tribe of Benjamin so he was Jewish he taught the Romans.

Michael, Paul (or Saul) was Jewish by birth and teaching, but of a different sort than the rest of the 12. He was what is considered to be a diaspora Jew. Before his conversion, he was (arguably) more loyal to the legalistic and enforcing aspect of the religion and his government than to the actual religion. He was a Pharisee that was living in a center of universalism (Tarsus). An environment that afforded his family not only the opportunity to become Roman citizens, but also fairly wealthy. This was the life he was born into. It was not chosen by him, so I am not trying to condemn him. Most of the 12 and likely even Jesus would have treated Paul before his conversion as they did any other agent of the Romans. He mostly taught the Romans Christianity because they were more ready to hear his Hellenized message that the true believers of Judaism.

I do not know how easy it would be to show the young man just how to do that. From my experience, changing anyone is a difficult task to say the least. Lets assume you could not show him how to control those thoughts no matter what he tried, what then? I do realize the unfairness of the question, but am curious.

michaelbell

Okay, one more last post. I can't turn my back and leave letting Michael think that Paul was King Saul.

Paul was not a jew from Benjamin's tribe or any other jewish tribe. He was a Roman assassin named Saul. He went around hunting down the disciples to kill them. God caught up with Saul, blinded him and sent him to the disciples to heal his blindness and changed his name to Paul and made him a disciple. He lived after Jesus died.

You are thinking of King Saul who was the son of Cis. He was the King of Israel just before King David, but his name wasn't changed to Paul. King Saul lived around 1026B.C..

He lived after Jesus died.

Posted by Unique-Lies on Mon, Jul 28, 2008, at 8:39 PM

Wrong. Jesus is alive and well even today.

memyselfi,

Would not you say it is amazing what a resurrected Jesus will do to a man.

Roman assassin one morning. Christian one afternoon.

memyselfi,

The Word is the Light. If you look at it carefully it will blind you indeed.

You have to be blinded before you can see.

hehehehe

parkerbrothers

Sorry, But if Jesus did Not Die on the cross, He was never risen and you would not be seeing this light you claim is blinding you.

Romans 5:6, 8; Romans 14:15; 1 Corinthians 8:11; 15:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; John 19:20

Maybe you should read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John just to make sure I'm not lying to you. Read where He went to hell when He died to save all the people who died in the old testament.

I have to truly say that I never knew Saul/Paul was a Jew until you and memyselfi made me look it up. I now know He was born a jew and will never forget it. Thank you both for that tidbit.

My apology to Michaelbell also.

Unique-Lies,

Sorry I did not explain myself that well and you misunderstood me. My fault. I was just trying to state that Paul lived before Jesus died and that Jesus was not dead today. In all honesty though only the human flesh of the incarnation laid in a state we call death for 3 days. As you said and the Bible states, "Jesus" descended to hell during the 3 days the "body" lay in the tomb.

Glad to see you realize you never get too old to learn something new. You may not be such an old cranky fart after all. I think you are "A" okay.

Unique-Lies, I hope you do not get upset and not return to Michaels comments. I was looking forward to going into a discussion about Revelation and was hoping for your input as it appears to be one of your favorite books. It is one of my most neglected for a variety of reasons. Later on this fall, I will have some extra time and would like to hear what everyone thinks about it and how they interpret it. The more people involved means more opinions to consider. That will help me to judge it and learn.

parkerbros,

You and I waste a lot of Michaels Blogs cutting each other down. If you try to humiliate me you are going to get it back if I stay on here.

I know you know Jesus died and went to hell so let's stop arguing about the known. I just couldn't resist your remark about Jesus didn't die. Paul lived at the same time Jesus was here, but Jesus died before Paul did. I came to throw out what I understand about the bible at everyone and it isn't all about Reveleation. I actually thought that if everyone on here knew their bible, they could discuss it or add to what I put in. That isn't what happened. Everyone knows more than the next, but won't add to, confirm/deny with proof.

I posted my comments about creation and evolution to the scientist who came on here. I have spoken about Mary Magdalene and Jesus and Noah and the flood. I have explained Life after death as it it written in the bible. That alone has been a life long desire of many experts to discover. I have never heard anyone explain it, yet everyone is all of a sudden an expert on it and refuses to reseach what I tell them. It's much easier to just laugh about it. That doesn't bother me, because I know the answer and everyone else is waiting for some expert out there to say it before they will believe it. I guess I will have to send a couple letters out to the TV Evangelists and wake them up.

I have admitted that I don't know it all, but I know what I know.

honda14, That is Exactly what the Book of Revelation says!

parkerbrothers,

Criss Angel walking on water doesn't concern me. I find him entertaining and I am a believer of what the Bible says. "ANYONE who believes can move mountains". Your bible probably says something else! I also believe that God doesn't condone this type of display of faith.

I saw Criss Angels pants filled up with air as he walked on the water, but nothing made today would support him on the water. I watched as a wave came up to him from the boats to see what it would do. His feet stayed stationary and the wave splashed against his feet. Even though his shoes were wet and he was maybe an inch or so "in" the water, he was still on the water. When you walk after a rain on top of the ground, why does your shoes get wet?

To not be walking on the water would be fraud and his shows wouldn't air.

I have watched a lot of videos of people proving Criss Angel as a fraud and find their videos worst than Criss Angels. I can only say I saw what I allegedly saw until I see it in person which more than likely will never happen. I posted the video so anyone could watch it and comment if they like or not. If the Bible says we can do anything that we believe we can do, why should I doubt it? That is God's word also! God implied the same thing at the tower of Babel. That is why He confounded everyones language and scattered them all over the earth.

Criss Angel will be on again tonight at 9pm on A&E.

Unique-Lies,

I hope you do not think I was cutting you down. One of the only problems I do not like about a blog is the misconception that can occur when "reading" what someone is "saying" and thinking we know what their demeanor and expressions are.

Someone could be reading these blogs and think Evil Monkey and I were blood kin to the Hatfield and Mccoys and been fighting each other for years when it is far from the truth. I actually expected him to growl in a deep voice the first time I talked to him on the phone and see smoke coming out of the phone. Instead he was very soft spoken and calm. He said the same things he said on here but it came across very different when you can actually hear a voice and tell it is no evil in it.

Another good example is Michael Bell himself. I think he comes across as gruff and somewhat mean to some people if they just "hear" what he "writes" on here. Meet him in person and you can tell there is absolutely no hate in him as he is often accussed of. He is the total opposite of it.

Even you. I do not know what to think of you sometimes. You might however just be the ole cranky and cantankerous devil you sound like sometimes. You probably are not, are you?

To not be walking on the water would be fraud and his shows wouldn't air.

Criss Angel will be on again tonight at 9pm on A&E.

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Jul 30, 2008, at 1:52 PM

Unique-Lies,

As long as Chris Angels' performances draw viewers there will be companies paying for commercials during his "shows". As long as the network is selling commercials during his "shows"they will pay Chris Angel for his "shows". The validity of his actual performance has nothing to do with his show airing. It is a business and a well run one at that. In other words unique, you could walk across the dog kennel in poo poo and if people will watch it on television and they can sell commercials, it will aire until the sale of the commercials stop.

No, and I can be appreciative that I do not have it all figured out. That would stop the learning process which I enjoy.

I did find it amusing last night in watching the show that Chris Angel needed to "pick" the locks on the doors. I would have expected a man that could walk on water to simply walk through the locked door.

Moderate entertainment. Wonder what they sold the commercials for????

The 144,000 are found in Revelation chapters 7 and 14. In chapter 7 it says there are 12,000 from 12 tribes which means the 144,000 are Jews of course if they are of the 12 tribes. The 144,000 are sealed in their foreheads. It says the 144,000 were not defiled with spiritual whoredom and that is why the statement "not defiled with women" is used.

parkerbrothers

God only knows! I have confessed to being a sinner and going to hell so you will have to be the judge!

-> Even you. I do not know what to think of you sometimes. You might however just be the ole cranky and cantankerous devil you sound like sometimes. You probably are not, are you?

Satan divided by himself can not stand. I am old, cranky, cantankerous and a devil when I have to be.

->For example: When Jesus returns, He will be bringing these 144,000 jews who were caught up in the air, just minutes prior to His return.

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Jul 30, 2008, at 2:45 PM

As I stated earlier, I am still in the learning process of which I enjoy. I have not read your above statement in the Bible. Where is it?

I also said "There is only so much that is said about it but we can add a lot more to it and be accute". I then stated quite a few things not printed word for word in the bible. I am not changing the words in the bible, only clarifying what the bible says. If the bible says that 144,000 jewish men will be caught up in the air to meet Him when Christ returns, that should not be a major Brain strain for anyone. Very easy to understand! These jews will change instantly, in the twinkle of an eye, to a heavenly, immortal, eternal body. That means it can never die. The kings of the earth go to war with Christ, means they will send their armies not themselves. Our loved ones can not kill an immortal body nor Christ, so why do our fearless leaders even think of coming against the King of Kings and Lord of Lords? It isn't printed in the bible like I tell it, but it only takes common sence to figure all this out.

This answer isn't in Revelation. It is in 1 Thessalonians. As Jesus is returning the jews who are dead in Christ will rise up first (1 Thessalonians 4:15,16) then the remaining jews (of the 144,000) who are alive will be caught up in the air to meet them (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus isn't coming to get the 144,000 then return to heaven. He is descending from heaven and continues to descend to earth with his 144,000 jews.

The Book of Revelation goes hand in hand with the rest of the Bible. Just like the old testament and the new testanment does. You have to know what is in all the books to learn what the bible is saying.

I look at Revelation as an outline. It can't be read like a story. It jumps back and forth giving more details as you read.

Jude 1:14

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The book of Jude tells us that the Lord is coming with ten thousands of his saint to execute judgment upon all. When Jesus returns his 144,000 saints will be caught up in the air on His way down to earth. These 144,000 jews help Jesus execute judgment upon the world.

Christians look at the Rapture as the last opportunity to escape the Trials and Tribulation. Preachers have been telling the people that they and their church will be in the rapture and they won't be in the Trials and tribulation period. Unless you are a male from one of the 12 tribes and never been defiled with woman and a male virgin, you can forget about the rapture. You are holding on to a false teaching and a false hope. No where does it mention any women being in the rapture except maybe in the new bible called "The Book". I would not recommend this book to anyone even thou it was published by the Christian Coalition.

Criss Angel is Moot! Makes no difference if he can or can not. Doesn't change anything. In the show, the building imploded with Criss in it. He showed up outside away from the building after the implosion. How did he get outside if he couldn't get the doors open??

Jesus isn't coming to get the 144,000 then return to heaven. He is descending from heaven and continues to descend to earth with his 144,000 jews.

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Thu, Jul 31, 2008, at 1:29 PM

->For example: When Jesus returns, He will be bringing these 144,000 jews who were caught up in the air, just minutes prior to His return.

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Jul 30, 2008, at 2:45 PM

Unique-Lies,

It sounds like you are trying to say that these 144,000 are going to be raptured up in the air one minute only to be right back on earth the next minute. You probably mean otherwise but it sure sounds that way. Please straighten this out.

parkerbrothers,

I made it as clear as I need to. It isn't the "cloud ride" that is important here. It is who gets to meet the Lord in the clouds as He is returning. How long it takes for the jews to be caught up is unknown, but it shouldn't take more than a minute or two to get to the surface from the clouds.

Or have you read where Jesus is coming to earth then going back then returning a third time to judge the world then returning again a fourth time to do battle with Satan and his new followers?

Preachers have taught that these people who are raptured up will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. This Too is a LIE! The Bible says that the jews in the rapture follow Christ whithersoever he goeth. (Revelation 14:4) 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

It is the people in the first phase of the 1st Resurrection that reign with Christ for 1,000 years. (Revelation 20:4) 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Perhaps you can tell us what really takes place at the time of this rapture and how it goes down? I have never met anyone who could tell me the truth yet!

If the bible says that 144,000 jewish men will be caught up in the air to meet Him when Christ returns, that should not be a major Brain strain for anyone.

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Thu, Jul 31, 2008, at 1:29 PM

Unique-Lies,

It would not be a brain strain if the Bible said that. The problem lies in only you said that.

parkerbrothers,

In Rev 4 John immediately was in the spirit and was able to view everything happening as described in the Book of revelation.

In Rev 5 The Lamb is able to open the seven seals. The four beasts and 24 elders fell down before the Lamb having harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. They sung a new song, saying thou art worthy to take the book and to open the seals thereof; for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

-> Here it is saying that they are singing about the people from all nations etc. who were beheaded and slain for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. This makes them saints and they will become kings and priests unto God and Jesus and they will reign on the earth. (Remember this; these people have been killed for Jesus' sake and they get to reign on the earth as kings and priests).

Next John see the angels and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.

->Here we see that God has all the angels He needs so we don't become angels when we die. Also as I stated before, I know of no female angels or children who were angels acording to the King James Bible. All angels were male angels and took on the appearance on human men.

-> In Rev 6 the lamb opened 1st seal and behold a white horse and he who sat on it went forth conquering, and to conquer.

-> 2nd seal opened and out came a red horse. and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another:

-> 3rd seal opened and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

-> 4th seal, And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. (These four horsemen have been here for some time now doing their killing.)

-> 5th seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:(These are the saints that the beasts and 24 elders were singing about. They are the future kings and priests who will reign on the earth, not heaven. These are not the 144,000 who are raptured up).

In verses 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (These are true saints and they are given white robes. These are the souls that are too numberous to count that John sees. These souls are saints, so they are sleeping and not really in heaven under the throne of God crying how much longer. John is in the spirit seeing these visions.)

-> 6th seal, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

-> In Revelation 7 John saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (These are four angels and not the four horsemen) The angels seal the 144,000 jews in the foreheads;

After this beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (These are the Kings and Priests mentioned in the 5th seal and in Rev 6:10,11) and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (God hasn't done this yet but will when the time comes.) 'This is FOUR times now these people have been mentioned in Revelations. In Rev 5, the 5th seal, Rev 6:10,11 and in Revelation 7.'

-> 7th seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

-> 1st trumpet, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

-> 2nd Trumpet, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

-> 3rd Trumpet, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

-> 4th Trumpet, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. And John beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

-> 5th Trumpet, and John saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

-> Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. (Here we see that the 144,000 are still here on earth during the Trials and Tribulation, that means they were here for Trials and Tribulation of the Beast and False Prophet as well).

Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

-> Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

-> 6th Trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

-> Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

-> in Rev 10 John eats and swallows the little book. The andel told John "Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

-> In Rev 11 power is given to the two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days or 42 months.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

--> 7th Trumpet, and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (This is out of order also because Christ doesn't return and take over until after the Beast rules for 42 months. This is an Outline of events but not in order)

In Revelation chapter 12 It describes Jesus being born of virgin Mary and be crucified by the Jews and Michael defeating Lucifer, the dragon and casting satan out of Heaven and down to the earth where he becomes the ruler of the world and the angel of light. (Do you see now how you can't read Revelation as a regular book in a set order?) Revelation bounces around.

-> In Rev chapter 13 the Beast comes up out of the sea.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (If your name isn't in the book of life, you will worship the beast and go to hell with me. I am talking to everyone, not just pb).

Then a second beast comes into the picture and makes everyone worship the first beast. It also tells the people to make an image of the beast and has power to give life to the image of the beast. He causes everyone to receive the mark of the beast. No man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (And the 144,000 are still on the earth and haven't been raptured yet)

-> Rev 14 Christ returns and brings his 144,000 jews with him that he meets in the air as he returns. (This 144,000 are not the souls that are kings and priests of God and Jesus)

While I think about it... Paul was a Jew and as far as I know he wasn't married so he more than likely was talking about himself and his fellow disciples and aplostles meeting Christ in the air because he was thinking that Christ was going to return in his time just as we think he is returning in our time. People read where paul says we and think he is implying us in the future 2,000 years later. I think not. He wasn't think that far away. He meant Paul and his christian friends who were still alive would instantly change into heavenly bodies and meet Christ and the others who had already died, in the air.

From here on out, Jesus and his 144,000 take over the slaughter of the rest of the people with his seven plaques and sword that protrudeth from His mouth. It gets sickening so I won't go on, but say this is when the 144,000 finally get raptured up and brought back to earth to be with the Lord forever.

Unique-Lies,

The book of Revelation is written in order if you read it as it is and not try to have to move things around to make them fit the picture you are trying to paint.

It is precise, detailed and in order.

John starts out with the seven churches.

John then moves to the seven seals.

John then moves to the seven trumpets.

John then moves to the seven vials.

Very detailed and in order.

You can move things around if you want to and use that as a basis to support your unique lies. I choose simply to read it just as it is and not try to concoct a different story than what John revealed to us. It is very simple is we allow it to be as it was meant.

You may believe as you stated that we are all going to hell but I believe what John wrote. There was a multitude in heaven which no man could count. I can count past 144,000 and I am just an ordinary Joe. Don't discount the blood of Jesus.

parkerbrothers,

After you get familar with the book of revelation you will know what I am saying about the order.

I don't take anything out of the order it is in in the bible. I may bring other scriptures in to make it more understandable, if it applies.

The souls too numberous to count that John is speaking about is the people from the old testament who were persecuted and killed for witnessing for God and the testamony of Jesus Christ.

Don't jump to conclusions now. Since John is seeing visions of the future, John may also be seeing the born again christians who are Martyred in the future.

Rest assured that these souls are the souls of those who were beheaded or killed or martyred for Jesus. These souls are not just christians. They are over and beyond.

The Bible tells us that they will be kings and priests to God and Jesus and will reign here on the earth.

As for going to hell, it has been planned from the beginning, who goes to heaven and who gets to go to hell. If your name is written in the book of life you get to go into the kingdom of heaven. If your name isn't in the book of life you get tossed into the lake of fire. Has Jesus written our name in there or will he sometime before we die is not known. That is what determines our destination. It has already been decided before we are even born. You know the story, God knows everything and knew everything about us before we were born.

-> In Revelation 7 John saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (These are four angels and not the four horsemen) The angels seal the 144,000 jews in the foreheads;

These were angels John saw not the 4 horsemen like you say. This is when the 144,000 are sealed by the angels.

-> John said:

Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them.

}First of all, in Rev 9, John didn't say "loose the four angels..."{

}The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and John heard a voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God. It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." These are angels in chapter 9 and not the same angels I was speaking of in chapter 7{

}These angels may indeed be the 4 horsemen because it is too early to be the armies coming against Christ and the 144,000. I have read nothing to confirm or deny it.{

-> No disrespect to you but until I open the Bible and see The Book of Unique I am going to beleive what John said, "and thus I saw the horses in the vision". }I can live with that{

These are the four horsemen with an army of 200 million that were the first four seals. They were held at the River Euphrates until the 6th trumpet. The tribulations do not start until the Lamb opens the book sealed with the seven seals. No man that was in heaven could open these seals of the book that held the trumpets and vials of tribulations. Only the sacraficed Lamb of God could.

-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Fri, Aug 1, 2008, at 7:52 AM

}Where does it say the 4 horsemen were held at the Euphrates river and/or until the 6th trumpet.{

You say the tribulations do not start until the Lamb opens the book sealed with the seven seals.

John says he sees the Lamb open the seals and explains what is to happen. When do you say the seals are opened and the tribulations begin?

The Bible says no one has asscended into heaven except Jesus so there are no men in heaven. Of course, Jesus is in heaven and is able to open the seals so when does it all happen?

Althou I have never understood the Book of Revelation, I have learned quite a few things about revelation. Lots of sick and evil things that I originally didn't know, happen before I thought they did. Revelation just keeps getting worse.

As for going to hell, it has been planned from the beginning, who goes to heaven and who gets to go to hell.

Posted by Unique-Lies on Sat, Aug 2, 2008, at 1:14 AM

Unique-Lies,

I do not think so. The plan of salvation was pre-destined but not an individual. God created us with a free will and choice so some of us may come to serve him out of choice and love instead of mechanics and duty.

parkerbros,

I do not think so. The plan of salvation was pre-destined but not an individual. God created us with a free will and choice so some of us may come to serve him out of choice and love instead of mechanics and duty.

-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Sat, Aug 2, 2008, at 6:43 AM

It is by the grace of God that you even think about Christ or salvation. You have nothing to do with looking for/finding Christ:

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Also:

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and your fruit should remain: that ("whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you").

How will you twist that aroud to convence people you don't know what you are talking about.

Nothing I have said has been taking out of order in which John wrote it. You pick and choose what you answer.

If you know so much about revelation teach us!

Prove what I teach is absolutely wrong and I will wipe the dust off my shoes and leave your city.

Believe me, the book of revelation describes some very bad news for the end times. It applies to everyone who is alive in the end. Many will be killed by Jesus Himself long before judgment day. How Jesus does it is by ways we have condemned in times of actual war. Unthinkable tortures without the possiblity of death, then on the second go around death comes. Anyone in their right mind would agree with me that these tortures are very cruel punishments. Why does a loving God need such evil punishments? The bible says to fear God. This is the punishment for the evil. If you know these things could happen to you, you will fear God.

When you reach in and pull out your heart and look at all the things you have said and done, you will fear Him, especially when you come face to face with your maker who knows everything you do, feel, think and say.

Revelation is full of the Good, the Bad and the Ugly!

It is by the grace of God that you even think about Christ or salvation. You have nothing to do with looking for/finding Christ:

Posted by Unique-Lies on Sat, Aug 2, 2008, at 2:38 PM

Unique-Lies,

I agree with the above post of yours. However I was saying you do have a choice to spurn Him or accept Him which destroys the myth of individual pre-destination.

In other words I agree He does the knocking but your hand is on the door knob to either allow entry or deny entry. He will not force Himself through the door.

Nothing I have said has been taking out of order in which John wrote it.

Posted by Unique-Lies on Sat, Aug 2, 2008, at 2:38

Well why did you post the two post below for?????

""(This is out of order also because Christ doesn't return and take over until after the Beast rules for 42 months. This is an Outline of events but not in order)""

and

"". (Do you see now how you can't read Revelation as a regular book in a set order?) Revelation bounces around.""

parkerbrothers,

Do I not explain the wrath of God as it is printed in your bible?

Rev 9:17-21 describes horses and the men who sat on them. This description may describe the armies with the four horsemen but the four horsemen were described in the first 4 seals. They were described much differently and no instructions say they are held at the great Euphrates until a later date in time.

Verse 18 says "By these three was the third part of men killed,..." then list the three things: by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

The four horsemen represent war, starvation, pestilence and death by wild animals. We have had these things since before our time.

No! This army of horsemen is something else unless you have more poof I haven't read about.

In chapter 9 prior to this a star falls to earth having the key to the abyss. It opens the abyss and smoke and locust come out of the abyss.

They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. Men can not die at this time. They are only tortued for 5 months.

This is just before the "Rapture" and the return of Christ. This is ordered by God, not satan or the beast. Satan would have given them power over even the saints.

So, we see here that God orders 5 months of torture and torment of all sinners before He returns. This is when the Beast is doing all his evil crimes against the people for not worshipping his image or his mark.

These locust looked like horses prepared for battle. They don't kill, but the 200 million hosemen do kill a third of all men after these locusts are done.

These four angels can only be the four angels who were bound by the word of God to hold the winds back when the 144,000 were marked on their foreheads.

parkerbrothers,

In a previous blog you said the 144,000 were raptured in chapter 14. You have also claimed no man is in heaven before this.

What is your answer to all these people in heaven that no man could number way before these 144,000 you claim are raptured.

-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Sat, Aug 2, 2008, at 9:05 PM

The first 5 verses in chapter 14 of Revelation explains this rapture taking place.

I only claim what is printed in your Bible.

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

Simple!

John is seeing visions because he is in the spirit. These souls are not there in heaven, John is only seeing the vision of them so he can better understand what the angel is telling him.

These are not people, they are souls. These souls are not the 144,000 jews. However, it could possibly include the 144,000 since he is viewing the future.

Revelation 5:8-10 describes these souls as Saints.

A. Redeemed to God by the blood of Jesus

B. They are out of every kindred, tongue and nation

C. They are made kings and priests unto God

D. They shall reign on the earth

E. They were Killed for witnessing for Jesus & God

F. they come from the old testament and new tesament

Revelation 20:4 also describes these Saints who were martyred and never worshipped the beast nor his image nor received his mark.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These are one and the same Souls. They are the souls of (everyone) who will be in the 1st Resurrection and reign with Christ for a thousand years. They will be kings and priests to God and Jesus forever. They have proven themselves to God.

Again, John is not really seeing these souls in reality (because no one has ever gone to heaven). John is in the spirit so he can see these souls of the future. According to the Bible, these souls will reign on the earth not heaven, but John had to see them somehow, somewhere, so the vision takes place around the throne.

What better background to show off God's saints to John in a vision than the throne of God.

I think it is also pretty clear that the Lamb is the instigator of all the actions. Whether He has killed someone yet, is a matter of where you think we are in the vision currently.

-- Posted by memyselfi on Sun, Aug 3, 2008, at 4:07 AM

memyselfi,

The easiest way to know where we are in the vision is listen to where John says we are. He counts in a precise order from 1 to 7.

1-7 through the Churches.

1-7 through the the Seals.

1-7 through the Trumpet Tribulations.

1-7 through the Vial Tribulations.

He presents a simple vision. We humans thinking we are so intellectually superior try to say what John is saying. We will try to rearrange and reorder his vision in order to paint our own picture that will support our different or unique perspective. John says what John is saying.

If you want to know where we are in the vision, simply listen to John. You will "know" exactly where we are at.

Disregard the previous question. (unless it does have some merit)

Actually it was just a dream I had last night that invoked that question. I have no idea how someone could be a revolutionary Jew. I thought Israel became a state in 1948 without any kind of Revolution.

It was just on my mind today since I had dreamed an angel was telling me a code-named uniquelies was a revolutionary Jew all of last night? What a dream!

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

Simple!

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Sun, Aug 3, 2008, at 12:25 AM

Unique-Lies,

It could be simple if you would stop manipulating the Word of God to get it to fit your program.

Below is KJV John 3:13. It is somewhat like Your 3:13 and somewhat different at the same time.

John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

As you should well know this is one verse right after Jesus talking to Nicodemas about being born again. At this time no man had died and ascended into heaven. Jesus himself had not been crucified, buried, descended or ascended yet at the point of this verse. Try reading the verse right after this one where he is saying He will soon be lifted up.

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Everything changed with a resurection of the last needed sacraficed Lamb.

Jesus was in no way teaching that this 144,000 would be the first to be in heaven with these verses you like to use. He was teaching He would be the first. There is a multitude in heaven of all kinds of people that no man can number before these 144,000 virgin Jews are ever mentioned as being seen in the Bible.

Look at the bright side though. These 144,000 virgins and yourself might be a little suprised when they find out they are not the first in more ways than one but at least they will be in Heaven with us that got there before they did.

I hope the suprise of me already being there and able to wave and say welcome home to all of you as you enter does not take from the excitement of you being home.

Perhaps he wants me there early to help build all of the virgin Jews a bigger mansion since they stayed and served longer?

If it be his will, I will hammer away on it.

The 5th seal is opened by the Lamb and John sees these saints that are too numberous to count.

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Sun, Aug 3, 2008, at 5:09 PM

Unique-Lies,

You are still at it. Changing the order to promote the program and make it work.

The 5th seal is not where this multitude that is too numerous to count is seen at. This multitude is not seen until after the sixth seal is broken and right before the seventh seal and the silence in Heaven for half an hour as the book is "finally" opened and the trumpet tribulations are getting ready to start.

The 5th seal is where the saints are seen which could have been numbered. He makes two distinctions of the ones in heaven during his vision by the seals much like Thessalonians does with the dead in Christ first and then the remainder which are alive at his coming of rapture.

Paul in Thessalonians says the dead in Christ go first, then we which remain. Sounds to me John was seeing exactly what Paul was seeing. The revealed Word of God.

I apology to all the other poster on here. I have taken too much of your time discussing the scriptures with parkerbrothers who can't even read the posts correctly. It makes it difficult trying to answer his posts when he posts things that have to be repeated over and over again and he still doesn't get it.

parkerbrothers

Rev 5:8-10

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of "saints".

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

John doesn't see the saints here but sees the 4 beasts and 24 Elders holding the golden vials of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

they sing a song about Jesus being able to open the seals because: He was slain, Jesus has redeemed us (the saints) to God by his blood, from every nation, tongue, people and kindred, and has made us (the saints) kings and priests unto God, and they (the saints) shall reign on earth.

John saw these things in his vision so he saw the saints that the 4 beasts and twenty four elders were singing about in the song about the Lamb. They were not singing about themselves because they were with God and didn't have to be redeemed.

Unique-Lies,

Not what John says. You are still trying to get John to say what "you" want. Why don't you instead just say what John says? It is much easier.

parkerbrothers,

I said the Bible says in John 3:13, not John said it nor it was said in rev.

Theologians don't know which John wrote the book of revelation. They actually think it was a different John because revelation is write in a different way the other books of John.

I like to think it was the same John because He knew what was going on and the difference is because it is future prophesy not present information. They also believe that John wrote all his books around 90 A.D.

The 144,000 will be the next souls to go to heaven but not until Christ return to eath and then goes back up into heaven. Christ won't retun into heaven until afer the 1000 year reign with those saints you are talking about. They are not in heaven. They are in their graves until they are resurrected at the 1st resurrection.

The Saints reign with Christ for 1000 years on earth. They become kings and priest of the new earth forever. John see them in his visions of the "future". They are raised as the 1st Resurrection.

The 144,000 are redeemed from among men and go wheresoever Christ goes. They are not kings and priests to God. They become Jesus' bodyguards in a way, even thou Christ needs no bodyguards. They are His angels who return with Him at His second coming and throw the evildoers into the firey furnace for Him.

You have read revelations more than I have, so I will leave you alone. I don't want to be around when your bus stops to pick you up and take you home wherever that is. You believe differently than I do and so do most other people, so good luck in your teachings.

parkerbrothers,

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

We are resurrected in our same flesh and blood bodies even thou they have decayed. We have never been to heaven, only in the grave sleeping.

We are resurrected back here on earth to be tempted by satan agin so we need our earthly bodies again.

Since we are resurrected at that time I think our bodies will be whole and without defects.

After a short while, the Lord destroys the people who followed satan with fire from heaven. Then...

memyselfi,

Thank you for your comment. I was afriad we had run everyone off.

Parkerbrothers belief is what everyone has been taught every since christainity started I guess, even I was taught this, but I am lead to believe it can not be that way. There are too many unanswered questions when you believe it that way.

I worded that last post wrong. I didn't mean the teachings of Matthew, mark, Luke, John, and Paul. I was referring to the early Christian movement after the Bibles appeared on the scene and the Apostles were not here to answer their questions.

I am aware of that and the people could find out the answers as long as the apostles were alive, but by then they were dead, so man has had to try to interpret it the best they could.

Kinda like saying "you can't put too much water on a nuclear plant reactor", after the supervisor goes home. Does that mean you can't put enough water on it or does that mean you can't put any more water on it??

If all these Saints were in heaven under the alter, like you claim, why in God's name do you believe they would descend into the clouds to meet them who were still alive, then go back into heaven to be with God forever. The dead were there in heaven with God according to what you say John said.

You confessed to me that you were not going to be raptured up in the clouds then turn around and come right back to earth, calling it a one minute cloud ride, yet now, you want me to believe that there are dead saints in heaven who are going to descend "Down" into the clouds, not be caught "up" in the clouds but caught "down" in the clouds, then turn right around and go back "up" into heaven with the ones who were alive on earth.

Pauls says the dead in Christ shall "RISE" first not descend first.

Paul was talking about the portion of the 144,000 who have already died and in their graves. They will rise first then the remainder of the 144,000 will be caught "UP" in the clouds to meet Jesus as He returns.

Your preaching keeps getting stupider and stupider.

If Paul taught it the way you say it happened then no wonder the christians don't know the tuth.

Only thing is, Paul taught it as the dead in Christ shall rise first, not descend first.

Prime example:

Pauls letter to the Thessaonian church where he said the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then the remaining ones that are live meet Him in the air.

Paul taught it to the Gentiles this way almost 2000 years ago and the Holy Spirit still teaches it the same way today if we are actually listening to Him instead of the Deceiving Spirit.

Only thing is, Paul taught it as the dead in Christ shall rise first, not descend first.

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Aug 6, 2008, at 3:00 PM

Unique-Lies,

Have you ever thought that the dead body may rise like the saints did at the crucifixtion as they walked the streets of Jerusalem?

Where was the body of Jesus when he arose?

parkerbrothers

He has comforted the Gentiles all these years with his rapture that hasn't taken place yet, even thou you say they have alredy gone to heaven and cleansed their robes.

So which is it, a rapture that has already taken place and they are under the alter or the rapture hasn't happened yet because these people are not in heaven.

Jesus came down here as the word and was made flesh. When he ascended up into heaven he went back to sit at the right hand of his father so he took on a heavenly body. Just like paul told us.

The saints who raised up out of their graves at the crucifixion remained on earth and didn't ascend into heaven so they didn't need a heavenly body at that time.

-> Have you ever thought that the dead body may rise like the saints did at the crucifixtion as they walked the streets of Jerusalem?

Paul told us that when he was going to be raptured up he would change in the twinkle of an eye, meaning he wouldn't need his earthly body in the clouds.

-> Where was the body of Jesus when he arose?

When Jesu arose, he rose in his earthly body because he walked the earth for several more days before He ascended into heaven. When he ascended into heaven he changed in the twinkle of an eye, just as we will.

->The only thing that is dead is the body in the grave. The soul is not buried with the body.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." Dan. 12:2.

The soul of a sinner dies also.

" For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die." Ezekiel 18:4

The Body goes back to the dust, the soul sleeps and the spirit return to God.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

A death occurs, the body goes into the ground and returns to dust, the soul sleeps in the grave, and the Holy Spirit, which God gave you, returns to God because it belongs to God because it IS God. (God Is the Father, the Word, the Son and the Holy Ghost).

God is in the highest heaven so the Holy Spirit returns to heaven which is his home.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Where did Elijah and Enoch go? They never died yet they never went to heaven. The souls sleep in the ground or where ever. I say the sinners soul goes to hell and sleeps. The souls of the christians go to Hades and sleeps.

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Althou Hell and Hades are sometimes referred to as one and the same, why did Hades not appear until the new testament as a place for souls to go to? I believe christian souls go to hades which is on the other side of the gulf from hell in the center of the earth. (Luke 16:26)

The souls of those under the alter is the vision of the souls who have died because they were beheaded for their testimony of God and Jesus and the souls of the people who don't accept the mark of the beast nor worship the beast nor his image. (Now THAT will be a GREAT TRIBULATION), but we both know that hasn't happpened yet. The ones who don't die after all these Tribulations of the last days are the ones who witness the 1st Resurrection. They will also be a part of this 1st Resurrection. They will be kings and priest of God and reign here on the earth.

Didn't you read that in revelations? If not you need to read it another 476 times.

The souls of the christians go to Hades and sleeps.

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Thu, Aug 7, 2008, at 12:19 PM

Unique-Lies,

Is the throne and the souls that John sees in Hades????

Where did Elijah and Enoch go? They never died yet they never went to heaven. The souls sleep in the ground or where ever.

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Thu, Aug 7, 2008, at 12:19 PM

Unique-Lies,

Your version again sounds a little different than the Bible.

2 Kings 2:11

11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Hebrews 11:5

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Looks like they went to heaven to me. How did you concoct the story that they did not go to heaven?

This brings up a good point. Where did John see these two in heaven during his vision?

You read the book of John and even tried to correct me before by telling me that Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about no one had gone to heaven except the son of God.

Posted by Unique-Lies on Thu, Aug 7, 2008, at 6:54 PM

Unique-Lies,

I never said no man had went to heaven. Quite the opposite. I know that man has went to heaven. He just does not ascend on his own as Christ did. We are not capable of it.

When Jesus was talking to Nicodemas He told him that no man had ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven. Jesus was right. In essence Enoch and Elijah did not ascend into heaven. Not on their own like Jesus did. They were raptured up or carried away to heaven by a force other than themselves.

Jesus is the only one that has ever and will ever ascend into heaven. No man will ever ascend into heaven or descend into hell on their own. We will be placed there by God with His power.

We will all deserve to be placed in Hell.

However, the sacrafice of the Lamb will cover our sins and allow us to stand before God as spotless and without sin and have the righteousness of Jesus imputed into us as our righteousness if we have accepted it.

No man will carry his own righteousness into heaven. God will however transport the righteousness of Jesus that is imputed into each of us sinners who have accepted it into heaven. We will go into heaven with His imputed righteousness, not anything of our own.

That is the blessed Good News.