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On The Rapture
Posted Saturday, August 2, 2008, at 6:23 PM<< Previous | Read comments | Respond | Email link | Next >>
4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand. 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand. 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand. 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Revelation 7:3-17 KJV 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:9-11 KJV
Seems to me that there is a lot of talk on the rapture as to who and when will we go?
I was asked earlier if I would put in my thought so here goes.
No I don't believe in a pre trib rapture except for the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel, I think they will be the ones who accept Christ.
I do believe that we will be several will be martyred for their faith and they will go first as is spoken of in 1Thes 4. At the halfway point the ones who are alive will be caught up with the ones who were martyred.
The ones under the altar asking the Lord to avenge them are the ones who have died for the faith before us.
Most people who believe the pre- trib rapture don't even worry about Revelation for they think they won't be here.
To be honest , does anybody deserve to escape the great Tribulation.
Instead of worrying about when you are going you should worry about which horseman is riding or which era we are in for the church ages .
We are in the last era and the black horse is riding for not only do we suffer from famine from food , but famine from God's word.
Just know that from chapter 8 on Revelation the faithful are not mentioned for either by rapture or martyrdom we are gone to be with the Lord.
19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:6-16 KJV
I believe that we all come back here , those who are faithful that is.
We can never know for sure so we must live as if it could happen at anytime.
I believe this is the mystery hid in God for only he knows for sure.
Live like it could be 1 second , 1 minute 1 hour , 1 year or a thousand years for he is coming back and those who worship him in Spirit and Truth and are born again of the Water and the Spirit are going with him.
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Great to see the blog on the subject of the book of Revelation Michael. I hope there will be some others that are interested in it and want to share what they believe.
I already have a question for you. it almost sounds if you were saying you think there will be two raptures. One pre trib for the 144,000 and one mid trib for the ones that are alive? The following part of your post is what made me think this:
No I don't believe in a pre trib rapture except for the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel, I think they will be the ones who accept Christ.
I do believe that we will be several will be martyred for their faith and they will go first as is spoken of in 1Thes 4.
At the halfway point the ones who are alive will be caught up with the ones who were martyred.
All the word "Rapture" means is to be caught up.
The Bible does talk of two resurrections the first being the ones in Christ to reign with him for a thousand years .
Then Satan is released for a little while then the rest of the dead is resurrected to be judged and sentenced into the lake of fire.
Like I said, if I get raptured before the tribulation Thank God I'm going home.
If I go in mid tribulation , Thank God I'm going home.
If I get martyred for believing on him, Thank God I'm going home.
This is my hope and peace in Christ for however God decides by his way not by man's many translations, when God calls, I'm going home.
If I go first and you remain, I'll save you a spot on God's crystal sea.
I believe as much as Jesus talked of fishing that is where my fishing hole will be.
I don't think we'll be riding some cloud playing harps either.
We will be back as in Eden before the old serpent messed it up.
I hope we can do some fishing though, I would throw em back anyway.
Parkerbrothers and I were just discussing the Rapture on the "Worse than the hot coffee incident" blog. I think it is worth going back to read if you want some answers. My answer to pb is long so I won't put it on this blog.
martyred is one who dies for the sake of Jesus or God, in this case. ONLY the people who were persecuted and killed or martyred for Jesus' sake in the past and future will be in the 1st Resurrection. They are the saints described in Revelation as being under the alter and wearing white robes. They are not going to be in the rapture! They are in the 1st resurrection and will be Kings and Priests of God and Jesus and will reign on earth with Christ for a thousand years. They will then become kings and priests forever. That is a title just like Jesus's.
Those who will be in the rapture are male jews who have not been defiled with women and are from one of the 12 tribes. When are these people caught up in the air to meet Christ? When He returns! As Jesus is descending from heaven the dead in Christ will rise up first then the male virgin jews who are alive will instantly be transformed into immortal souls and meet Jesus and the other jews in the air. Jesus is descending to earth to judge the world so these 144,000 jews come with him as he lands on mount Sion.
Now when does Jesus return? After the beast rules for 42 months and does his evil and claims to be God.
There are seals to open and trumpets to sound with painfull trials and tribulations before Christ returns with the 144,000.
So... even if you are in the rapture, you will be here for the trials and tribulation unless you die first.
There is NO ESCAPE!
Unique-Lies,
That is your opinion and I realize you are entitled to it. I personally do not like to see anyone turn the book of Revelation out of the order John gave it in to paint a picture that suits their desires and program. Why not let John put in the order it needs to go?
But wait a minute. I think he already has.
michaelbell,
Would be nice to do a little fishing there. I would even do the cooking of the rainbow trout for everyone.
I agree with you. I will go whenever He wants me to go. Just glad to go with Him.
Michael,
Typically, I would not join in the doctrinal debates within your blogs, however, the "end times" viewpoint you espouse is not the only Bible believing position out there. As a matter of fact, I believe it is a rather modern view. Many Christians believe that the so-called "end times" prophesies were fulfilled among the time of first century Christians (See Matthew 24). The disciples asked Jesus when they would know that the end times were here. Jesus addressed them, not us necessarily us. I do believe that Jesus will return, however, the whole rapture thing is up in the air, as far as I am concerned. It makes great "theater", in a literal sense. Books, movies are now being made, leading people to believe that they will be the ones involved. Tumultuous times have existed throughout every generation, probably leading people to think it the world will end as we know it. Who knows? Only God.
I would suggest you and your readers check out the link below for an alternative view.
http://members.aol.com/twarren13/amillen...
Marc
Correction:
Tumultuous times have existed throughout every generation, probably leading people to think either the rapture is coming or Christ is returning. I did not phrase this crrectly in my original blog.
Correctly!!!
Things are changing Pastor Mike.
Colorodo has just passed a law that could be interpreted to where the Bible could be forbidden for sale out there.
Now, in our own home town, Tyson has changed one of their holidays to a foreign holiday commemorating something for the muslim belief, which is OK,but why did they take away pay for a nationally celebrated AMERICAN Holiday?
I don't know about you, but I'll feed what Tyson Chicken we have bought to our dogs, and I will be buying Perdue's Chicken from now on, if I buy chicken.
It is only a sign of things to come.Brother Jessie.
Here is the link to Brother Jessie's comment!
The Bible says it has to happen, tribulation is fast approaching!
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?f...
It wouldn't hurt us to learn how to homestead a bit so we wouldn't be so dependent on factory farms or other outside food producers.
We could grow more of what we eat or buy it from local folk so animals are raised in a healthier situation,we have more heirloom fruits and vegetables,more bio-diversity,etc.
That's safer,more economical and offers tastier selections,too.
The better responses to a potentially hideous future can improve our lives here and now.
Forget smugness or paranoia- just be prepared and thoughtful.
It couldn't hurt.
(BTW,if we walk,bike,balloon,sail,row,use critter-powered vehicles or automated public transportation,the good guys don't have to worry about the end times leaving their car,train,plane,etc. crashing when left unattended.)
Quantumcat,
I like your last line, but hopefully I won't have to worry about my vehicle anyways if I leave it unattended a person much more mightier than me will be in control (at least of me, not sure about my car).
When I was just a kid, I heard that the bible would not be allowed to read or buy. I wondered how that could ever be possible.
After reading Colorados' new homosexual law, I can understand it perfectly, but then, didn't I just say a couple weeks ago to let it go. Leave them alone, before you lose your church, but no, the christians have to keep it up until they "lost their rights" not the rights of the homosexuals. Not only do the churches lose their right to show, distibute, discuss or sell the bible or any religious/nonreligious literature contains scriptures/words condemning homosexuality in Colorado, outside of their church, but businesses also are bound by this law in their business.
The Bible says not to judge lest you be judged. What part of that don't we understand.
I said also, if you take away someone's right to do something you are taking your rights away also.
The Constitution guantees us "certain" (meaning absolute) "Rights". Why take those rights away from yourselves?
The Colorado law doesn't mean crap, IF you KNOW your rights AND HOW to claim them. Problem is, no one knows what their rights are!
The Colorado homosexual law is a good example of the end times prophesy. That is just how simple it is to make the world worship a one world religion and the anti-christ. It is coming and the people won't even see it coming until they are utilizing the "Mark of the Beast" in their everyday activities.
You can hide your head in the sand, but it isn't going away.
jesse sellers,
The Big Corporations are cheap. They cheat their employees out of a lot more than we think. They have been know to keep employees until just before they retire and let them go, so they don't have to pay retirement.
They are suppose to pay the taxes that supports the USA, but who pays the tax and who gets the tax break for moving to town. Who makes the money when they hire illegal aliens to do your job for less or move out of the country to get cheap labor yet sell their product back to us for a higher price.
Every notice when you buy groceries that the same thing you always have bought is now sold in a smaller quantity and smaller package yet the price is larger. That is like a double increase in the price of that one product.
Have you ever looked at our Statutory Law? We are arrested and taken to trial and sentenced according to this law which is "the Uniform Commercial Code". We are tried and convicted using the uniform commercial code no matter what the crime is. This uniform commercial code protects the commercial businesses not you. This is the law you have equal protection of. It is De Facto law and is unjust, unlawful and unconstitutional according to the law dictionaries.
Big businesses control the world today. Our voice doesn't mean anything.
Michaelbell is counting on being Martyred so he will be sure to go to heaven, but with the world like it is you could be killed for standing up for your rights, speaking out against a cause or someone , resisting arrest or just arguing with someone. Those things won't get anyone to heaven. You have to be martyred for Christs' sake not tysons, the corner gas or the grocery store.
Thanks for your report about the Colorado Law. I found it very interesting and fits right in with what we talk about.
Unique
America Zinc and union officials who were "watching over" our retirement suddenly disappeared to Brazil, and guess where you could not extradite them from.
Big business has never listened until you get into their hip pocket.
We, as Americans, have become so self-centered that we do not concern ourselves with the plight of our brothers and sisters. We are so doggedly determined to "fix it ourselves", we forget to turn this mess over to God. The more we dabble in it , the worse it gets. Just remember, because I may disagree with you does not mean I am your enemy--just see things through another set of eyes. Big business plays all kinds of games with us, such as cutting ounces to supposedly keep prices down. Yes, I have lived the scenario you have talked about very well.
Just for thought.
Numbers have a special meaning with the Hebrews , and I know the New Testament was written in Greek , but it was Jewish men who wrote it.
The number 12 symbolizes people of God times 12 times people of God times 1000 which means greatness.
In other words the full number of God's people who endure till the end.
michaelbell,
Sorry, none of that made any sense to me at all.
parkerbrothers will have to explain it.
You are confessing that 144,000 is the full number of God's people who endure till the end.
Yet the bible says that these 144,000 will be raptured up in the air in revelation chapter 14, yet there is another countless number of people who will be martyred and of course they don't endure, but still the bible tells us that those who believe in him and have the faith will survive.
The bible goes on to tell us in Matthews that after Christ returns, two will be in the field, Jesus kills one and leaves the other. Two will be on the roof top, one is killed and the other left and two will be grinding on a mill when one is killed and the other is left. The ones left are the true and faithful believers.
Jesus harvests the earth and throws these sinners in a winepress. The blood is as high as a horses bridle and 180 miles long. And still there are others who survive God's wrath who didn't accept the mark of the beast or his image.
Michaelbell, you jews need to recount the full number of God's people who endure till the end.
What I just said is GOOD, not BAD!
Even thou I speak of sad, bad or horrible things to come, God's people will endure, but they are few as compared to world population of almost 7 Billion people.
where in the bible did Jesus kill somebody?
Ask unique. One of the 144,000 might have fell off the cloud ride up and down as fast as it was moving.
I respect peoples views on this subject, I personaly do not believe in the rapture. When one is working in the field one is taken and the other is left one is delivered to death, death is one of the names of satan, in order for Christ to come [the seventh trump] we have to go through the sixth, in the sixth trump the bible talks about two beasts the first beast is a political[ nations] the second beast is death, the old dragon the serpent= satan. When satan is allowed to reigh for 3 months the 3 witnesses will be killed they will lay in the street for three days on the third day Christ will appear and we will all be in spiritual bodies in an instant.{we will meet in the air= air spirit, in the clouds=a group] again I respect peoples different opinions this is what I have gotten out of studing the bible and also a little Hebrew and Greek
God bless
michaelbell,
where in the bible did Jesus kill somebody?
-- Posted by michaelbell on Sat, Aug 2, 2008, at 9:05 PM
Is that all you got out of my comment to you?
Matthew 12:34-43
34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.
35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."
"The Parable of the Weeds Explained"
36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37 He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
In scripture above we see that the first one to be killed (or taken) is the evil sinners and the good person is left.
Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
In these scriptures Jesus has His angels do the killing, but Jesus also slay the evil with the sword that protrudes from His mouth.
Revelation 19:15 and 21
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
I am very suprises that a preacher like yourself has never read that. I could understand parkerbrothers not knowing it, but you an ordained christian? Parkerbrothers is still on his cloud ride. I don't know what he is on. If anyone is going to meet Jesus in the air they have to go when Jesus is there in the air which is when he returns. I know of no cloud ride mentioned in the bible. The jews rise up to meet the Lord in the air and go with Jesus everywhere He goes from then on.
Every eye shall see the Lord as he descends from the clouds onto earth just as they saw Jesus as He ascended into the clouds.
Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
One Question for discussion,when Jesus comes back for the 1000 year reign.
Will the reign be earth time or heaven time?
Unique
What do you think 1st. Thessalonians 4:14 - 4:17 is talking about.
I like Pastor Mike believe it is speaking of a rapture of Christians, before Jesus sets foot on earth.
PS
That will be the rapture for the people of faith. there will be no more Christians. The 144,000 will be 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Isreal to be raptured.
jesse sellers,
I think you have it figured out. I beleive the rapture is where all these unnumerible people come from that are in heaven with their white robes and palms in their hands. Paul was not addressing virgin Jews in his letter to the Thessalonians.
The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation is definitely not a number of which no man can count. It is ridiculous to even think that way. Glad to see someone else reading the Book of Revelation for what it is and not trying to promote their own program.
Parkerbrothers is still on his cloud ride.
-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Sat, Aug 2, 2008, at 11:09 PM
Unique-Lies,
I do not promote a one mitute cloud ride. You have and do. This one minute cloud ride is of your imagination, not mine. I have never thought that 144,000 virgin Jews are going to meet Jesus in the air as he is coming down just to be dropped back off a minute later.
Please do not insinuate and twist your imagination and try to pawn it off as my belief. That will not work. The one minute cloud ride theory is yours and probably unique to you.
Parker
I also believe some will be saved from hell when they refuse the mark of the beast, but they are not the people of faith. When we leave they will come to the conclusion we were right, but they will have to stand up and suffer and die like Jesus did.
jesse sellers,
I agree.
I also believe there will be some that come to repentance and trust in the blood of the Lamb to cleanse them after the rapture of Christians.
I also believe there will be some that will recognize they were trusting in their own works and to come to saving faith in the slain Lamb after the Rapture.
I also believe there will be some that will never come to repentance and curse the Lamb of God right up to the seventh vial.
Parker
This is where our beliefs differ a little.
I believe when we are raptured out, that is also the time the Holy Spirit leaves man kind and now he will have to make his decision on his own.
I also admit I could be wrong, but that is why I stated there would be no Christians left.
jesse sellers,
First of all, the 1000 year reign doesn't begin until all the saints (those who John saw around the throne) are Resurrected. This is the first resurrection and consist of only these saints.
Rev 20:4-6
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
No one else is resurrected at this time. These saints will reign with Christ for 1000 years preparing the world for the resurrection of the rest of the world.
At this time everyone on the earth is now dead except those saints that were left alive on the earth when Jesus got thru with his harvest. The saints who are left alive will be on earth to witness the first resurrection. They will be added to the saints who are resurrected. The number of these saints are too numberous to count in a vision.
These saints are resurrected right back here on this earth with earthly bodies. When Jesus was resurrected, he had an earthly body of flesh and blood, so we will also.
These saints will be kings and priests of God and Christ, so they must learn what is expected of them. They will reign here on the earth with Christ for 1000 years. I won't be here at that time and have no idea what time will be like in the next lifetime on earth. I assume it will be like it is today, but look at the difference in our time and calendars today.
The 1000 years could be heaven time because the earth has to be cleaned up, all homes and buildings removed, vehicles removed and ready for a new generation of people that future scientists can say evolved from apes also. God could do all this just by speaking it, so He doesn't need any super long time to do this.
Unique
Your right: Time will tell.
jesse sellers - PS,
What do I think 1st. Thessalonians 4:14 - 4:17 is talking about?
It is talking about people being caught up in the air to meet Jesus. Paul is talking to the Thessalonians about it. He is telling them that the souls who are sleeping in Christ (Christians who have died) will be raised up first then the rest of them will be raised up to meet them in the clouds.
Paul says "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep".
Here Paul actually is saying that "he" and others who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, would not prevent those who have already died.
Paul tells them, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first."
He continues with, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Paul wrote this in 50-70 A.D. put later John wrote the book of revelation in 90 A.D. that explains this caught up in the air. John gets his information from the visions he sees while he is in the spirit.
John tells us exactly who these people are who are caught up in the air to meet the Lord when He returns. You can read it for yourself in Rev 7:1-8 and Rev 14:1-5. They are Jews from the 12 tribes and male virgins who haven't been defiled with women and they will be with the Lord forever. These do not include the Gentiles according to John.
This event is what we refer to as the rapture but it consists of the Jews according to John and it does occur before Jesus sets foot on the earth. It occurs in the clouds as Jesus returns to earth.
The men of Galilea saw Jesus asecnd up into the clouds before He disappered. When Jesus returns we won't see Him until he comes down out of the clouds, at which time these jews will have just been raptured up in the clouds beyond our vision. John tells us that these jews return with Lord when He returns. (Rev 14)
If all christians were raptured up, there would be no reason for the Resurrection to take place because all the rest of the people would be sinners and cast into the lake of fire.
See how easy it is to understand the bible when you listen to the Holy Spirit and use the common sense God gave you as you read it.
parkerbrothers - Cloud Ride,
I never said anything about riding a cloud. The Jews Meet Jesus in the clouds and come back to earth because they go everywhere Jesus goes forever.
John put it in his book of revelation for you to read. You called it a cloud ride because I said the next minute they return with Christ. Not my exact words but mean the same. It was something like they were raptured up just a minute or two before they return with Christ.
Here is something else for you to think about:
When Jesus returns, He has His angels do the weeding of the sinners for Him and throw them into the firey furnace. (Or kill the sinners so only the Christians remain alive on earth). These people who remain alive are the people who don't worship the Beast or his image nor accept his mark in their forehead or back of right hand. No one else will remain alive at this time.
These people will see the Resurrection and be a part of it also making them Priests and kings. The second death will have no effect on them.
As you can plainly see, these people are not the ones who are caught up in the air. They are, thou, part of the saints John seen in his vision.
To confirm one of your other statements:
Yes, even sinners can get salvation at the very last second. There are two ways:
1. Be Martyred
2. Don't accept the mark of the beast nor worship the beast nor his image.
These two things YOU have control over. That is why your free will could seal your fate.
jesse sellers
If God baptises you with the Hole spirit, it remains with you until you run it off. You will need it more than ever when Jesus returns and harvests his people. There are tribulations that won't harm the true christians if they are born again and have the faith. Without this Holy Spirit everyone would lose their faith when all this happens. We will be here doing this time.
Christians will either become saints or will be killed by the angels with Jesus.
What happens to christian wannabes who aren't saints?
They are killed and they are resurrected after the 1000 years when satan is released.
Wait a minute!
Wannabes would be christians who accepted the mark of the beast or worshipped the beast or his image. If you don't you would become a saint or be martyred. There is no in between. Only the saints will remain alive.
Parker
This is where our beliefs differ a little.
I believe when we are raptured out, that is also the time the Holy Spirit leaves man kind and now he will have to make his decision on his own.
I also admit I could be wrong, but that is why I stated there would be no Christians left.
-- Posted by jesse sellers on Sun, Aug 3, 2008, at 12:
jesse sellers,
I must have missed something. That is exactly what I believe also. Where do you see our beliefs as being different. I have probably said something that you misunderstood.
Unique
Remember we all see through the glass darkley now so no one has it 100% right.( Including me)
Yes there will be a rapture of Christians because Jesus will not let his people go throught what coming.
Yes, there will be a resurrection because of final judgement.
Yes we will all face it, because we all judge.
Parker
I miss read your comments. I thought you meant the Holy Spirit was still here.
jesse sellers,
Sorry, I misrepresented myself if you thought I was inferring that the Holy Spirit was still here at the time of tribulations. I think the Holy Spirit has to be withdrawn and gone before these can start.
You are absolutely right about Jesus not letting us as Christians go through the pouring out of the wrath of God.
Shortly before telling the gentiles of the Thessalonian church about the coming rapture of Christians he tells them:
10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
We will be delivered by Jesus from the wrath to come and be poured out on unrepentant mankind.
I never said anything about riding a cloud. The Jews Meet Jesus in the clouds and come back to earth because they go everywhere Jesus goes forever
-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Sun, Aug 3, 2008, at 2:03 PM
Maybe I am missing something but in your very own words it still sounds like a little cloud ride. Right up and right back down.
Either way you want to look at it is up to you.
As for myself, I know which bus to get on to go home. I was told to be expectant and be looking for it. I'm a looking for the bus I was told to catch and I will know it when I see it.
May the bus you catch take you to your desired destination.
Parker
Your correct, He the Holy Spirit has to be gone before it can happens. I say "Aman"
parkerbrothers,
Maybe I am missing something but in your very own words it still sounds like a little cloud ride. Right up and right back down.
Either way you want to look at it is up to you.
As for myself, I know which bus to get on to go home. I was told to be expectant and be looking for it. I'm a looking for the bus I was told to catch and I will know it when I see it.
May the bus you catch take you to your desired destination.
-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Sun, Aug 3, 2008, at 4:08 PM
You just keep putting your foot in your mouth.
If you aren't caught up in the clouds then you aren't one of the 144,000 being raptured up. Isn't that what I have been telling you all along?
Now you are changing your cloud ride to a bus ride home.
I hope you don't get run over by your bus when it comes! I was told I came from the dust of the earth and will return to dust.
Earth is my home, not heaven. I was never in heaven and I never came from heaven, so heaven isn't my home. When the holy spirit leaves me, it will return to heaven but not me.
You be careful now and don't get on the wrong bus that says heaven. Satan will be waiting for you out there, because there aren't any buses to heaven. The only way to the kingdom of heaven is thru Jesus.
Now let's get serious!
Your false religion is that God is not going to let christians go thru the tribulations, right?
The Bible tells us that only 144,000 are caught up in the air to be in the rapture, but you said that John wrote the book of revelation in the correct order so, let's look at Johns Order.
1. letters to the 7 churches
2. John goes into the spirit
3. The Lamb can open the seals
4. 4 beasts & 24 elders have prayers of these unnumberable saints John sees the saints that are too numberous to count.
5. John sees 10,000 times 10,000 & thousands of thousands of angels
6. Lamb opens 1st seal - 1st horseman
7. Lamb opens 2nd seal - 2nd Horseman
8. Lamb opens 3rd seal - 3rd Horseman
9. Lamb opens 4th seal - 4th Horseman
10. Lamb opens 5th seal - John sees the saints again
11. Lamb opens 6th seal - a Great Earthquake, sun became black as sackcloth, moon is blood red, stars of heaven fell upon earth, heaven departs, evey mountain moves and everyone hides from God.
12. John sees 4 angel holding wind back, angels seal the 144,000 and John sees the Martyred saints again.
13. Lamb opens 7th seal - angel filled censer with fire from the altar and cast it to earth. Another earthquake happens.
14. 1st Trumpet is sounded - hail and fire mingled with blood are cast to the earth and burns 1/3 of trees and all green grass.
15. 2nd Trumpet is sounded - burning mountain cast into the sea - 1/3 part of sea became blood, 1/3 part of sea creatures died, 1/3 part of ships were destroyed.
16. 3rd Trumpet is sounded - burning star from heaven fell to earth upon a 1/3 part of the rivers, name of star was wormwood
many men died because of the bitter wormwood.
17. 4th Trumpet is sounded - 1/3 of the sun, moon and stars didn't shine.
18. 5th Trumpet is sounded - John saw a star with the key to the bottomless pit and saw him open it. the sun and air was darkened by the smoke. Locust emerged and power was given to them to as scorpions.
19. Scorpions were commanded to not hurt grass of the earth (which has already been burnt up), neither any green thing,
neither any tree nor the 144,000. (The jews who are in the rapture is still here at this time according to John). They should not kill but only torment for 5 months.
20. 6th Trumpet is sounded - loose the 4 angels and the 200 million horsemen at the Euphrates. These kill 1/3 of all men by fire, smoke and brimstone.
21. John eats and swallows the little book.
22. John must prophesy again before many people.
23. Power is given to the two prophets to prophesy for 1260 days. When finished, beast shall make war with them, overcome them and kill them. they lay in street for 3 1/2 days then God raises them and calls them to heaven
24. 7th Trumpet is sounded - the kingdoms of the world become kingdoms of God and Jesus forever.
25. This is where John sees Jesus being born of virgin Mary and be crucified by the Jews and Michael defeating Lucifer, the dragon and casting satan out of Heaven and down to the earth where he becomes the ruler of the world and the angel of light.
(Sorry but this appears to be out of order with what we know)
26. the beast comes up out of the sea.
27. John says "all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". (That should not leave any questions in anyones' mind)
28. a second beast comes into the picture and makes everyone worship the first beast.
29. Jesus decends from heaven, the Jews are caught up in the clouds, then Christ stands on mount Sion with the 144,000 jews.
This is the order that John sees them and you can plainly see that this is when the Rapture occurs.
(Did you read all the plaques, and curses and torment and deaths that take place before the rapture starts?)
If John is quotoing the events in their proper order, all these things happen BEFORE Jesus returns and BEFORE the RAPTURE,
so where does the Bible say those in the rapture will be exempt from the tribulations or anyone for that matter?
The only thing that is left after Jesus returns is Jesus sending his angels to kill the wicked and then Jesus can see the righteous people standing who will be in the 1st Resurrection.
Who are these angels that jesus sends out to kill the evil doers? (Looks like the 144,000 jews to me, since they go everywhere Jesus goes forever.)
(These who are left standing and all the others who died for Christ are the Saints John seen that he couldn't count.)
Of course, after the 1st resurrection there is a new life for these souls for 1000 years then the rest of the dead are raised to be tempted by satan again.
OH yeah! One last thing. If the holy spirit has to be gone before all this happens, the holy spirit would be gone long before Jesus returns and even before the Beast comes up out of the sea.
If it happens your way, no one would be safe from the beast or the tribulations, because the holy spirit has abandoned them.
parkerbrothers,
Maybe I am missing something but in your very own words it still sounds like a little cloud ride. Right up and right back down.
Either way you want to look at it is up to you.
As for myself, I know which bus to get on to go home. I was told to be expectant and be looking for it. I'm a looking for the bus I was told to catch and I will know it when I see it.
May the bus you catch take you to your desired destination.
-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Sun, Aug 3, 2008, at 4:08 PM
You just keep putting your foot in your mouth.
If you aren't caught up in the clouds then you aren't one of the 144,000 being raptured up. Isn't that what I have been telling you all along?
Now you are changing your cloud ride to a bus ride home.
Posted by Unique-Lies on Sun, Aug 3, 2008, at 8:05 PM
Unique-Lies,
All joking set aside, I am not going to be raptured up just to come right back down one minute later. The Revelation of John tells me that along with Paul in Thessalonians. I will be raptured up to leave this earth to go home with Jesus as the trumpet tribulations get ready to be poured out on earth. The ones left behind will be the ones in Revelation 6:15-17. These verses are right after the sixth seal and the unnumerible multitude has been delivered and have their palms in their hands and right before the seventh is broken and the trumpet and vial tribulations start. Jesus has carried the Christians home and nothing is left but unrepenant sinners who now realize the wrath is coming.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
These unrepentant sinners realize the rapture has occurred, the Holy spirit is gone and the wrath is indeed as the Christians had been proclaiming coming upon them. Woe, woe, woe it is soon said. They know the first woe is on the way.
Also you are still employing your use of manipulation. You added the salutation (parkerbrothers ,) above my post to you and tried making it appear as if you had sent it to me.
You almost have appeared as an angel of light with your use of scriptures to convey a different message. Almost.
Your false religion is that God is not going to let christians go thru the tribulations, right?
The Bible tells us that only 144,000 are caught up in the air to be in the rapture, but you said that John wrote the book of revelation in the correct order so, let's look at Johns Order.
1. letters to the 7 churches
2. John goes into the spirit
3. The Lamb can open the seals
4. 4 beasts & 24 elders have prayers of these unnumberable saints John sees the saints that are too numberous to count.
5. John sees 10,000 times 10,000 & thousands of thousands of angels
6. Lamb opens 1st seal - 1st horseman
7. Lamb opens 2nd seal - 2nd Horseman
8. Lamb opens 3rd seal - 3rd Horseman
9. Lamb opens 4th seal - 4th Horseman
10. Lamb opens 5th seal - John sees the saints again
11. Lamb opens 6th seal - a Great Earthquake, sun became black as sackcloth, moon is blood red, stars of heaven fell upon earth, heaven departs, evey mountain moves and everyone hides from God.
12. John sees 4 angel holding wind back, angels seal the 144,000 and John sees the Martyred saints again.
13. Lamb opens 7th seal - angel filled censer with fire from the altar and cast it to earth. Another earthquake happens.
14. 1st Trumpet is sounded - hail and fire mingled with blood are cast to the earth and burns 1/3 of trees and all green grass.
-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Sun, Aug 3, 2008, at 8:05 PM
Unique-Lies,
Wrong. You are proclaiming this false doctrine. You like to post a long confusing post in which someone can be mislead is they do not read close. You will leave out a small important part or try changing the order. I want to look at the first part of what you posted and show you what you are attempting to pull off.
In item 4 above you are claiming this unnumerible multitude is what John is seeing. Wrong. John has not seen even seen the saints at this point. He has only seen the throne, the book, four beasts, harps, golden vials, one angel, the Lamb and twenty four elders at this point. He has not seen the saints yet. He has not seen the unnumerible multitude yet either. You are still putting things out of order to sell your false program.
In item 10 you said he see the saints again. Wrong. This is first time he has seen the one martyred for their testimony of the word. You are again placing thing out of order in order to justify your false program.
In item 12 not only are you adding things in out of order you are now leaving off part of it. John here sees his second group of people. This is where he sees the great multitude that no man could count of all kinds of people standing with the palms in their hands. This is not the martyred saints. They were seen first in the fifth seal.
You seem intent on robbing Christians of their glorious hope and discounting the blood of the Lamb. Why?
If you are content with beleiving you are going to hell and that the sacrafice was not good enough for you that is fine. But why do you appear to be wanting to drag everyone else off with you? That is not the Gospel (good news) you are proclaiming. It is a false belief you carry and propel.
Wow, you people really know how to turn Jesus into a tug of war fight.
However, i'm with parkerbrothers on this one.
UniqueLies does a great job of twisting words to fit his agenda, while ultimately his facts are wrong. Unique, have you ever thought about politics, haha.
Here's the only truth: we don't know the truth. None of us can claim our thoughts as truth, for we do not know how God is going to have his plan play out. All we have is the Bible, but we each have our own interpretation of it. God is the only one that truly knows. But still we try to justify it, so that it makes more sense to us.
Haven't you noticed that God doesn't make sense! He just is, and he just does. You can try to figure him out and only become more confused.
Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.
We are made for Earth, therefore we can comprehend earthly things. It is human nature to want to satisfy your curiosity. We want tangible and logical things, and God and his amazing Word is sometimes not logical. He thinks in "Heaven Thought", and while we live out this life on Earth we will never completely understand his plan, so we must just accpet it and let God work.
Bottom Line Faith in the Blood!
PS
Come to think about what Reed said, It does sounds like a mixture of democrat and republican in one package. Can't decide which party to join.
Come to think about what Reed said, It does sounds like a mixture of democrat and republican in one package. Can't decide which party to join.
-- Posted by jesse sellers on Mon, Aug 4, 2008, at 2:33 PM
jesse sellers,
Could you explain that a little more please.
reed_ashley,
Do keep in mind though that uniquelies does understand the most important thing.
Christ Lived
Christ Crucified
Christ Resurrected.
He has always said and defended that. Always has.
I do give him credit for at least not being just a knot on the log and saying nothing as most "Christians" will do. I also acknowledge that for 48 years I had only read the book of Revelation probably 5 or 6 times. After uniquelies aroused me to think I have read the book of Revelation 374 times in the last 4 months.
Although it may appear differently we have few differences. I know we both believe in the Blood of the Lamb. I only see our views differing on the strenght of it. I believe it totally cleanses us removing all spots and dresses us with a garment that is now stainproof and unique seems to stumble at it and not realize the precious value of the white stainproof garment.
True joy can only be realized when you see the stainproof garment.
reed_ashley,
Jesus thanked God for hiding the truth from the world, but has revealed it to babes.
Jesus said He spoke in parables so the world won't know the truth. Yet Jesus explained all the parables to his disciples because they didn't understand them yet.
Jesus said the world didn't believe me, so it won't believe you either. I know what Jesus meant, but I tried anyway.
The people of the world have been taught by the Pharisees of our time and not by the Holy spirit. That is two different teachings, just like it was in the days of Jesus walking the earth.
We can understand His plan. That is the purpose of His Word, to teach us His Plan. The Holy Spirit teaches us what the Scriptures mean. We can not understand his Bible nor his plan without the Holy Ghost.
True, we are made for the earth because we come from the dust of the earth and we shall return to the dust.
Jesus told Nicodemus "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven".
At that time Jesus hadn't gone to heaven but Jesus told him anyway. John, who wrote the book of John didn't write it until around A.D.90, another 90 or so years, but John put that quote in his book as what Jesus said. Who better to hear about heaven than from Jesus Christ.
As proof of what I say is the truth:
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." 1 Thess. 4:13 (1 Cor. 15:18, 20) (John 11:11-14).
NOTE. - In sound sleep one is wholly lost to consciousness; time goes by unmeasured; and the functions of the mental organs are suspended for the time being.
Where do the dead sleep?
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." Dan. 12:2.
How long will they sleep there?
"So man lieth down, and riseth not, till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job. 14:12
Where does he wait?
"If I wait, the grave is mine house; I have made my bed in the darkness." Job 17:13.
What becomes of man's thoughts at death?
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Ps. 146:4.
Do the dead know anything?
"For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Eccl. 9:5
"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Ps. 115:17.
How much does one know of God when dead?
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee." Ps. 6:5.
But are not the righteous dead in heaven?
"For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:34.
When does the rapture of the 144,000 take place?
"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 1 Thess. 4:16 (1 Cor. 15:23).
My posts are long because I try to present enough scripture to back up what I am saying.
Here anyone who can not see that when you die, you sleep until you are resurrected, won't know the truth.
NO ONE GOES TO HEAVEN! Whether it be a cloud ride or Bus Ride Home with parkerbrothers. Your body and soul goes in the grave til you are resurrected.
Before anyone is Resurrected, Chist returns and sends his angels to throw the evildoers into the firey furnace. Christ defeats the kings of the earth and their armies, Christ destroyes the Great City of Babylon, then slays the remaining evil doers with the sword that proceeds from His mouth.
Iam not sure these people get Resurrected who are killed by the angels and Christ.
The saints are raised first and 1000 years later we are resurrected. Until then we know nothing and do nothing.
Here is something else everyone needs to learn!
When you are resurrected, you still aren't going to be judged by the Lord.
First let me say that the saints have proven themselves to the Lord, so they won't be judged. The 144,000 won't be judged because the bible says they are pure and are sin free. That is why God has already picked them.
Now back to what I was saying about not being judged.
NOTE. - If, as we have learned (Eccl. 9:5), the dead know not anything, then they will certainly have no knowledge of the lapse of time. A thousand years will be to them a day or a moment. To go down to the grave, and wait till the resurrection, even though it be a thousand years, will be to those who experience it like a sudden transition from this life to the next. It ought to be a consoling thought to one whose life has been filled with anxiety and grief for loved ones who persist in wickedness, to know that they will in death be spared torment. Again, it would mar the felicity of one's enjoyment in heaven if he could look upon earth, and see his friends and relatives maltreated by strangers, or suffering from cold and hunger. It is wise that God has ordered it as expressed by the patriarch: "His sons come to honor, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:21.
When the saints are resurrected in the First Resurrection, they just automatically reign with Christ for the 1000 years and prepare the world for the 2nd Resurrection. They will be kings and priests to God and Christ and rule over us.
When we (the rest of the dead who are in our graves) are Resurrected, satan is let loose to go out and deceive us newly resurrected people.
Suddenly we who have been dead for ??? are raised up to a world with satan in it again. We will be taught God's Word by the priests and kings but also tempted by satan. Everyone who chooses to follow satan will be killed again, but by fire from heaven. Again we would go to our graves, because the bible says that the graves will release the dead and the lakes and rivers will release the dead, THEN the Lord Judges those who are standing before Him.
Unique lies,
You like to take opportunity in mis-using the word sleep. You get confused just like the disciples did when Jesus said Lazarus sleepeth. Lazarus was dead unique. He was not sleeping. Jesus saw their confusion and straightens their error out in the verses below.
11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Read the four verses above slowly unique. They will tell you plainly that Jesus saw their error in understanding the word sleep. Especially take notice of the last one where Jesus after seeing their error now speaks "plainly" to them. "Lazarus is dead".
First let me say that the saints have proven themselves to the Lord, so they won't be judged. The 144,000 won't be judged because the bible says they are pure and are sin free. That is why God has already picked them.
Posted by Unique-Lies on Mon, Aug 4, 2008, at 4:21 PM
Unique-Lies,
Saints are not saints because they have never sinned. They are saints because of their faith in the blood of the Lamb.
The Bible does not say these 144,000 have always been sin free and that being sin free is the reason God has picked them. They were found without guile and without fault before the throne. This is after they had been sealed. All Christians will be found without guile and fault before God. They have been washed by the Lamb.
All have sinned and fell short.
Their works have not redeemed them. It is their faith in the Lamb that "imputes" righteousness to them. None of us can earn our righteousness. You can not prove yourself to God and escape judgement. Only the Lamb can cover our sins and carry us through without being judged and condemned. We may give account for ourselves but we will not be judged and condemned if we have been washed.
Are you washed? In the Blood. In the blood of the soul cleansing Lamb ....
For someone who works,races at Duck River and posts from 7:00am until 12:00pm it's not possible to have read Revelations 374 times. Hilarious.
...which means you've read it 3 times a day since May... yeah frickin right.
parkerbrothers,
You don't know how much I love you using these scriptures:
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
For those of you who want to follow this, it is John chapter 11:1-
Lazarus was sick and dying so his sister went to Jesus and told Him.
John 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
John 11:6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.
[when Jesus heard this He deliberately stays where He is for another two days on purpose so Lazarus does die. This death of Lazarus will bring Glory to God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.]
Lazarus is a friend of Jesus because Jesus loved Lazarus and his sisters. That tells me that Lazarus would be a good christian man even before the word christian was used to describe someone.
Jesus tell His disciples that Lazarus is "sleeping" and He has to go wake him.
Jesus knew Lazarus was dead just like Jesus knew the little girl was dead when He told their parents that she was sleeping. [Mark 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.]
Jesus uses these scriptures to tell us that the people who are dead in Christ are "Sleeping" which means "they are dead but their soul is sleeping".
Jesus then confesses to His disciples that Lazarus is dead so they would understand that Lazarus' body was dead but not his soul.
Jesus then tells them in verse 15:
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
This is just another example of Jesus having to explain his parables.
I understand sleep and ead. I tried explaining it to you and others but no one seems to understand it. When the Bible says that someone is sleeping or slept, it could mean they are sleeping or they aree dead. You have to know who the bible is talking about to know how to use the word sleep, sleeping and slept.
Here is are some examples:
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him
Is this people who are really sleeping or people who have already died?
Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Is this people who were buried alive and are sleeping in their graves or people who have died?
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Is Jesus the first fruits of some people who are sleeping it off or is this the saints who have died that Jesus will raise up at the 1st Resurrection?
In the case of Lazarus, the disciples thought Jesus meant sleeping in a bed. I not like the disciples, knew Jesus meant Lazarus was dead, but Lazarus' soul was sleeping and not dead.
NOW! The way you worded your question to me... you are insinuating that the disciples where in error when they assumed that Lazarus was sleeping so when Jesus realized this He corrected them, which is exactly what happened here. But you are saying is that the disciples were wrong when they thought Lazarus was sleeping, meaning you believe that sleeping means dead which it does in many of the uses of the word "sleeping" in the Bible.
So... when Jesus told His disciples that Lazarus was "sleeping", was Jesus lying to His disciples or did He mean Lazarus was Sleeping.
They have already accepted Christ and have stayed pure and without sin. That is why they are saints. They have been executed for their beliefs in God and if it applies, they don't accept the mark of the beast nor worship the beast nor his image. Anyone who is Martyred for Jesus' sake can't get any holier.
Am I washed? I will have to wait and see when the time comes.
Unique-Lies,
If you have to wait till the time comes???? If you are standing at the judgement and do not know if you are washed, don't even ask.
For someone who works,races at Duck River and posts from 7:00am until 12:00pm it's not possible to have read Revelations 374 times. Hilarious.
-- Posted by For someone who works,races at Duck River and posts from 7:00am until 12:00pm it's not possible to have read Revelations 374 times. Hilarious.
-- Posted by nascarfanatic on Mon, Aug 4, 2008, at 6:51 PM
nascarfanatic,
When you make up your mind to do something anything is possible. Try it sometime.
Of coarse it is hard for you to imaginge anybody having a desire to read something so many times that you consider a fairy tale.
It would be like be me trying to imagine you reading Snow White 374 times in 4 months.
So... when Jesus told His disciples that Lazarus was "sleeping", was Jesus lying to His disciples or did He mean Lazarus was Sleeping.
-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Mon, Aug 4, 2008, at 8:31 P
Unique-Lies,
I personally think it shows where Jesus used the word sleep for death. I hear many people today politely say "they are at rest", "passed away", "gone home", "at sleep", "in glory", etc., etc. when someone has died. But they neither are saying someone is sleeping. If they thought someone had a misunderstanding I think they would then "plainly" tell them "they are dead".
One thing is for sure though. If all these examples you give are asleep they sure do a lot of talking, understanding, crying, singing, shouting and palm waving in their sleep.
Am I washed? I will have to wait and see when the time comes.
-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Mon, Aug 4, 2008, at 8:44 PM
Unique-Lies,
You can know if you are washed. Listen to what John says.
13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
John knew what he was talking about. I am washed beyond a shadow of a doubt.
...which means you've read it 3 times a day since May... yeah frickin right.
-- Posted by nascarfanatic on Mon, Aug 4, 2008, at 6:59 PM
nascarfanatic,
Great mathematical conclusions.
That would be the average. I have made it a point to read it at least once a day. Some days I have read it as many 7 times. The more I read it, the more I want to read it.
I read it this morning at 3:30. I read it again after meeting with the paving contractor at 6:00. I read it waiting for my appointment with the pool company representative at 10:00. I read it after meeting with the condominium association attorney at 2:30. I read it between breaks this afternoon by 7:00 before I got back on the dozier. I am going home now and read it before bed. That will be six times today.
I learn something everytime I read it and will not want to stop until the learning ceases. May it never.
parkerbrothers,
I personally think it shows where Jesus used the word sleep for death. I hear many people today politely say "they are at rest", "passed away", "gone home", "at sleep", "in glory", etc., etc. when someone has died. But they neither are saying someone is sleeping. If they thought someone had a misunderstanding I think they would then "plainly" tell them "they are dead".
One thing is for sure though. If all these examples you give are asleep they sure do a lot of talking, understanding, crying, singing, shouting and palm waving in their sleep.
-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Mon, Aug 4, 2008, at 9:35 PM
Funny how when you talk about John you say He knows what he is talking about and has everything in the right order and you believe everything John says. but when Jesus says Lazarus is Sleeping, (and I have to remind you that this is also in the Book of John) your answer was "I personally think it shows where Jesus used the word sleep for death."
Jesus did say it and it wasn't a misunderstanding. The Disciples just misinterpreted Jesus using the word sleeping. Their first thought was he was sleeping not dead. The word Sleep was used a lot in the old testament to mean died or dead.
-> One thing is for sure though. If all these examples you give are asleep they sure do a lot of talking, understanding, crying, singing, shouting and palm waving in their sleep.
Now who are you talking about that do these things while they are dead? Are you talking about the souls John saw in his visions again?
You said you had a dream about uniquelies. Was I there in person alive doing these things or saying the things you saw in your vision? No and neither are the saints in Johns visins. They are just a vision of things to come. They weren't alive they were a dream or vision. They did not yet exist, only a vision of them existed in Johns vision.
If you don't know the difference between visions, dreams, fantasies and reality, you need to get help.
Unique
We all need help.
That is why we are told in Philippians 2:12 to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
I believe most of us on this blog including you, are trying to do just that.
Like you, we two understand our beliefs, and like you can't see why you don't understand ours.
Where have you recieved your teachings from, then maybe, we two could understand where you are coming from.
sorry,
( we too )
that is what happens when I get to fast typing and don't proof read.
Jesus did say it and it wasn't a misunderstanding. The Disciples just misinterpreted Jesus using the word sleeping. Their first thought was he was sleeping not dead. The word Sleep was used a lot in the old testament to mean died or dead.
Posted by Unique-Lies on Mon, Aug 4, 2008, at 11:21 PM
Unique-Lies,
That is what I was trying to say. It must have came across to you differently. My fault if it did.
You said you had a dream about uniquelies. Was I there in person alive doing these things or saying the things you saw in your vision? No and neither are the saints in Johns visins. They are just a vision of things to come. They weren't alive they were a dream or vision. They did not yet exist, only a vision of them existed in Johns vision.
If you don't know the difference between visions, dreams, fantasies and reality, you need to get help.
-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Mon, Aug 4, 2008, at 11:21 PM
Unique-Lies,
You are the one that can not distinguish between a dream and a vision from God. Your very second sentence above shows you are confused about a dream and a vision where you call my dream a vision.
My little dreams are just what they are. Typical dreams we all have. No big deal. They are not revealed visions.
However don't discount the "vision" that John had. It was not just some dream.
His vision is exact and precise of what "will" happen and be seen after his vision almost 2000 years ago.
Listed below are some things that might help you become able to know the difference between a dream and a vision.
Chapter 1:
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Chapter 4:
1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Chapter 22:
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Do not continue to confuse this "vision" from God with a "dream" as you seem to be doing. If you do continue you are actually the one that "needs to get help".
jesse sellers,
Matthew 11:25
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Since God has hidden the truth from the wise and the prudent I realized that the truth can only come from the Holy Spirit, just like it did for the disciples and apostles after Jesus ascended up into heaven.
Like Paul, I do not get my information from man, nor man taught colleges, seminars, or lectures. I read the bible and turn it over to the Holy spirit to reveal to me what he wants me to know.
Sometimes I don't get it all at one time. Sometimes it may be months before I get the whole answer. I am taught when the holy spirit feels I am ready to learn it.
If someone learns from the holy spirit and they don't tells others, a lot of that information is taken away and given to someone who knows more and uses it.
My Credentials:
Galations 1:12
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
I don't go to churches where preacher contaminate the word of God just like the Pharisees did in the old days. I do watch preachers on TV now and then to see if they have learned anything or just teaching the same ol things that have been taught for centuries.
I am smart, but have done and said some pretty dumb things. When it came to reading the bible, it was greek to me. I couldn't understand anything. I had to read the living bible to get anything out of it. I accepted Jesus and stayed in his word. eventually the Holy SPirit came in and I started understanding the Bible. Somethings were impossible to understand because I wasn't a jew and didn't know their customs and traditions. The ones that puzzled me finally showed up on TV or in a story so I could learn the truth.
The parable about the camel going thru the eye of a needle never made any sense to me for years, but because I kept thinking about it, Paul Harvey came on TV one day and explained it to me.
When I heard the rest of the story by mr. Harvey, do you know what my first thoght was? I thought, Yes! The Holy Spirit has decided that it is time that I knew the answer to this puzzle. It happens that way all the time. I only learn so much so somethings are very clear to me, yet part of it or something else is absolutely clear yet. I can only reveal what I know I know and wait til the holy spirit send the answer to me from someone out there. I actually thoght these blogs would give me more clarification by people discussing them, but we just argue instead. The Holy spirit isn't in any of those arguements.
Just like parkerbrothers saying he has read revelation 476+ times. He tries to read it 7 times a day. It helps to read anything over and over again. You will always get something else out of it, but when it comes to the bible the truth is hidden to the wise and the prudent. You just have to wait for the Holy SPirit to reveal it to you.
parkerbrothers,
Chapter 4:
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Since you have read the Book of revelations probably 480+ times by now, this verse says that John is called up into heaven, thru the door opened in heaven.
Since you have read Revelation 480+ time by now
Please show me the Book, chapter and verses (you don't have to paste the verses, just the numbers because I can read them)
1. Show Me... WHERE it says that all the people in the world who are christians, will be carried off to heaven!
The bible tells me that no one goes to heaven until they are judged after the resurrections, except the 144,000 who go with Jesus everywhere.
2. Tell all us christians what the Book of Revelation tells you about the return of Christ and his 144,000 and when the people can look forward to being Resurrected!
3. Tell us what Jesus does when He returns to the earth at his second coming.
4. Tell us how peaceful and beautiful it will be on this evil earth when Christ returns.
5. Tell us how many people have been judged and sent to heaven before Christ returns.
6. Tell us why you think people have already been sent to heaven and have to come back down here when God Resurrectes everyone.
7. Tell us why they have to be tempted by satan again and be killed a second time if they follow satan.
8. Tell us if Armagedon is the last battle on earth.
9. Tell us what great city today, is.... Babylon the great.
10. Tell us how God cleans up the mess of dead bodies He has stung out all over the world.
11. Then if you can, use the whole bible, to explain where there is a verse that says christians will be taken to heaven before the New Heaven has even been created.
12. Tell us who John says will get to go to the new heaven.
That ought to keep you busy for awhile.
I pray that eyes will be opened and are not veiled, as the bible speaks of in 1st. Corinthians - 1:18 and 2nd Corinthians - 4:3
jesse sellers
That is all any of us can do
Unique
Remember there is one out there called the deciever, he knows the Bible text better than you or I.
Always pray about and research any clarification you recieve and I believe you will.
Now I'am sure your betting your right, and guess what, me too.
I'am betting on Jesus to get me out of this mess down here, and I persume you are also.
jesse sellers,
This deceiver you mentioned does indeed know scriptures. He knows how changing one word can be devastating.
The Lord God said ...thou shalt surely die.
The serpent said ......thou shall not surely die
The fall occurred with the deception of one word.
There are two tragic things we tend to severely underestimate. The power of the Blood and the deception of Satan.
Parker
Yes
One little word changed man's, and the world's complete future.
Remember it even took on Jesus.
Talk about sly,cunning, and confidence.
It isn't a friend of man that is one thing for sure.
Parker- Unique
If you haven't already go to Google.com and call up the glue that holds us together it's called (Laminin) talking about something out of this world.
jesse sellers,
I had seen a couple of articles on Laminin before. Quite interesting.
Yes
The cross, it's been holding us together since time begain.
Now, because of Jesus it's also our ticket home.
jesse sellers,
I am aware of the deciever, that is why I preach so hard. He is winning and needs to be stoped but that will be impossible.
I may sound cocky to you, but I know I am right or I wouldn't speak out. I only want people to read it for themselves and then decide.
Personally I am hoping to be dead before it all starts. I alread had a heart attack and flatlined three times but they kept bringing me back against my will.
I'm sorry but the way I look at the cross is this... it is a wooden idol that people worship too much, just like the statues of angels and of Jesus and Jesus on the cross in the churches. They are symbolic and not what God asked us to worship. We are suppose to worship God who is in our hearts and mind not a picture of him or an idol of wood, stone, gold, silver, cloth nor paper, including crosses, virgin marys, josephs and church buildings.
I know Jesus, so I know His Father!
No problem with me because I also will promote my feelings and beliefs,as I said before that glass is still dark we see through, but one day all will be clear. I use the cross as symbol of love and suffering which always reminds me of what pain, and suffering Jesus must have went through to redeem us.
I believe from what you have said, you must have other things to do before you can go home.
jesse sellers
It would appear that way.
I know Jesus, so I know His Father!
-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Tue, Aug 5, 2008, at 9:05 PM
Unique-Lies,
If you knew Jesus for what He is, you would not believe you and everyone else is going to Hell.
The Muslims know about Jesus also. But they do not know Him for what He is. People who know Jesus as a great and wise teacher or prophet only have never came to know Jesus.
If you believe everyone is going to Hell you must be one of the ones of the wise and prudent that God has hidden the truth from. Get to know Jesus for what He really is and you will come to understand what He can do for you and you will know you are saved and know that Hell has no claim on you. Now that is Good News.
Yes, that IS Good news, so don't throw it all down the drain.
Jesus reads our hearts and knows everything about us. Everyones secrets will be revealed in the end.
What I know you will never know, so thank God you will be taken home to heaven when Jesus drives His bus down to the corner bus stop and picks you up and drives you all the way back to heaven where your home is.
You don't by any chance have an address there I can post to you when you go back home? You could tell me what it is like in heaven before God rolls it up and makes it disappear.
Where are my 12 answers in your own words about the Book of Revelation? For someone who has read it 480+ times, you should know the answers by now.
Unique-Lies,
I am too busy trying to stop the spread of a lie to allow myself to be sidetracked by a deceptive lure of more questions.
Every minute I spend answering those questions you gave me to keep me busy would be a minute a lie might slip in.
As far as the address you need I might suggest you simply postmark it in care of Jesus. You should know his address by now.
However it probably will do you no good to try and correspond since the ones that reside at the home where I am going will not be able to look and see the ones in the home you have claimed for yourself. You should be able to see me although I do not think I will be able to receive or respond to messages from your claimed side.
Would if I could.
Ain't cause I cain't.
(sorry)
You found time to read the book of revelations 476 times, but now you don't have time to answer 12 questions about what you read?
Forgive me for putting such a burden on you.
Unique-Lies,
I will answer your question in time but for now I have a fire to put out. Someone is preaching a 10 minute salvation and one minute cloud ride with Jesus on here that is defamating the blood of the Lamb. Bear with me please.
atta boy, go after him!
Unique-Lies,
I am carrying as much water as I can at one time. The problem is he keeps going from one place to the other and starting a new fire with all this so called "secret" information he has. I am starting to believe he may be one of the surviving gnostics with all this "secret" stuff he thinks he has. He has recently started a chop your head off for Jesus campaign as the way to be saved.