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The Holy Spirit The Dove and The Rapture !
Posted Tuesday, August 5, 2008, at 4:28 PM<< Previous | Read comments | Respond | Email link | Next >>
I n the bible the 'Holy Spirit is either compared to water or a dove, as in when the dove descended upon Jesus and when he talked of the living water.
The first mention of the dove was in the days of Noah as I will list here. 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; 8:9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters [were] on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark. 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth [was] an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. 8:12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more. 8:13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first [month], the first [day] of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry. Genesis 8:8-13 KJV The dove had no rest so he came back to Noah the first time , he found the olive branch which meant the world was at peace, the third time he did not come back. Three times the dove was mentioned1 In America there was three moves of the Holy Spirit as a dove descending. First right before world war one and the start of the Pentecostal movement with a man in Topeka Kansas named Parham and the speaking in tongues then when the Azusa street revival with the interpretation of tongues and the writing of languages not known to the translator all within 10 years of each other. Then in the 40's and 50's and the tent revivals and the healing crusades. Mainline churches did not accept and some still don't accept these outpourings of the Holy Spirit so they call them crazy or demonic. I don't talk in tongues "yet" , but I have had hands laid on me and been healed. I will not discredit either for that would be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. If you are wondering what this has to do with the rapture , here goes . In verse 13 of chapter of Genesis it states that on the first month and the first day the waters were dried up And Noah removed the covering and the earth was dry. The first month and the first day by the Jewish calendar is when the Feast of Trumpets take place, which if you can discern it is a perfect portrait of the rapture of the church. The denominations that came out of the moves mentioned above took the "dove" or Holy Spirit and kept to themselves since others refuse to accept it. But when God pours the Spirit out on all flesh as mentioned in Joel 2:28 the spirit will come and then leave to not return and the greatest thing is the church the denominations but those that worship in Spirit and truth and who have accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour are going back with the spirit in what we call the rapture. No matter when the rapture is God always provides a way for his people to come out he did with Noah , he did with Moses and the nation of Israel as he will his elect. Those that are martyred during the tribulation are the ones who came to accept him during the tribulation. A complete study of the feast of Israel will open peoples to eyes on the cycles that God works in. For we are "as in the days of Noah[Matt24:37-38] The Spirit is fixing to outpour as never before then The dead in Christ shall rise first and those alive will be transformed in the twinkling of a eye and be caught up"RAPTURED" WITH THEM! Paul says these words are to be used for comfort for one another, they sure do comfort me. 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Jude 1:3 KJV I do my best to fulfill this verse and want my friends to join with me to become known as DEFENDERS OF THE FAITH for when we are gone the who will be the voice crying in the wilderness crying "Repent Repent for the Kingdom of God is at Hand" For when God calls his children home , there is no 'wait a minute' Have a Blessed Day! This was from a study with a Evangelist that I listen to Comments Showing comments in chronological order [Show most recent comments first] |
A man getting to the roots of his faith.
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michaelbell,
I am a born again christian and I beleive that God will be with his people right up to the end. However, I have to warn christians that they have been mislead.
Let's start with Joel 2:28
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
This is happening as we speak. Look at all of us who are prophesying. The information highway has made the amount of information available today greater than ever before.
-> But when God pours the Spirit out on all flesh as mentioned in Joel 2:28 the spirit will come and then leave to not return and the greatest thing is the church the denominations but those that worship in Spirit and truth and who have accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour are going back with the spirit in what we call the rapture.
The present day Pharisees and Scribes have taught everyone that when they die they will be judged and go home to heaven to be with their father before they are even buried in their graves.
At least that is what parkerbrothers thinks. He claims they are already in heaven under the altar before God. He told me that he was waiting for Jesus to come down and stop the bus and pick him up and drive him back to heaven.
Yeah! That is what I thought. Sounds real silly doesn't it.
My question is this. If all the christians who have died have already gone to heaven, then who are the ones who are sleeping in their graves that will be raised first? If all the christian have gone to heaven it sounds stupid to send them back down to meet the live christians in the air then go back to heaven. You also say that the Holy Spirit goes back to heaven with them at this time.
Just for the sake of it, let's say that is true. Now, we have just presented another problem.
If all the christians in the world have just been raptured up, who are these 144,000 who are caught up in the air?
Wait now, I'm now finished.
In Revelation, John tells us who will be in the 1st Resurrection. Guess who they are. They are described as being the same saints who were beheaded for God and the people who were killed because they didn't worship the beast nor his image no accept his mark. John even says there are some who are still alive who are God's elect and they will watch the 1st Resurrection take place before their eyes and even be a part of it.
Did the Holy Spirit abandon these other saints when it went back to heaven with all the christians in the rapture? Who were these saints if all the christians were raptured up with the Holy Spirit?
why would all the christians come back here to meet all the other christians in the air when they were already in Heaven with their father?
Now as for your DEFENDERS OF THE FAITH, I will be here until I die trying to warn everyone about the end times and what to watch out for.
Repent, Repent for the Kingdom of God is here now. The Kingdom of God is within you!
Jesus is coming to Harvest the world. He sends His angels to throu the evildoers in the firey furnace and the one left is the one that god wants.
Jesus is coming, NOT to take the righteous, but the bad and evil. Then the saints are resurrected. 1000 years later everyone else is resurrected at the same time satan is released...
Christians, you have been lied to for years.
God Loves you and wants you to repent and love your neighbors as you love yourself. Amen
PS. michael you need to read it yourself and stop worrying about copying other evangelists.
I have been a Christian for years. After doing a lot of studying for myself I have come to understand one of the biggest and I do mean biggest false teaching around is the rapture the bible never mentions it. If a person wants to find out where the rapture started they need to do a little research, its very eye opening,the rapture is a new teaching {God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow} so where does that leave the rapture.
sparkle,
The word Rapture doesn't appear in the bible but when the 144,000 jews are caught up in the clouds, that is what is implied as the rapture.
The jews who are in this meeting in the clouds who have died are raised up first from their sleep the the jews how are still alive are caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus as He returns.
These are only jews and there are only 144,000 of them in the so called rapture. It does exist but isn't called a rapture in the bible.
Christians have been taught that all the christians are raptured up, yet they want to believe they are judged and go to heaven when they die. They can not have it both ways. In fact, both ways are completely wrong.
The 144,000 jews get raptured up not all the christians and no one goes to heaven when they die. They only go to heaven AFTER the whole world has been resurrected and judged and God creates the new heaven. The present heaven disappears like a scroll rolled up before we are judged, so what would happen to all the souls in heaven if they went to heaven when they died. Would they disappear also and never be found or heard from again?
The rapture has been taught for years, it has just got out of control with all the evangelists telling stories about people undressing and folding their cloths in a neat pile and then disappearing.Trains, planes, cars, trucks and ships running astray all around the world.
AT the time of this "rapture" there will be so many wierd, wild and horrible things happening that no one will be missed. 144,000 out of 7 billion people won't be noticeable that much. And all the torment and torture being done to the world, who will care about someone missing.
Yes, all the christians will still be here on the earth at his time. But like you said, Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow for the people who are born in the last days also. The Holy Spirit does not leave with the 144,000 jews. If it leaves with all the christians, it will have to wait until after Armagedon. I think it will be here when we are resurrected to be tempted by satan again.
If the Lord stepped to the edge of the clouds and blew the trumpet and said children come home before the terrible tribulation I spoke of in Revelation , would you say no because you didn't believe it like that.
I think not, our ways our not God's ways or our thinking not his thinking.
Heaven is not our home! It is the home of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the 4 beasts, the 24 Elders and the Angels. It isn't even the home of the saints either.
Everyone who goes to heaven will go to the new heaven, the New City of Jerusalem, which hasn't been created yet.
When the Lord stands on a cloud and the angel blows his trumpet, the Lord is making his second coming. He won't be stopping at the clouds then return to heaven. He is returning to earth like it has been preached as His second coming.
The children who are told to come up are the 144,000.
When Jesus returns He is staying here on earth and won't return to heaven until after He has judged everyone.
Jesus descends from heaven. He stops in the clouds to meet his 144,000 then continues His second coming. He stands on mount Sion with the 144,000 as proof that they were caught up in the clouds to meet Him.
These 144,000 now have immortal, eternal bodies which now makes them angels who may take on any form. They destroy the armies of the kings of the earth at Armagedon. These angels are sent by Jesus to weed the earth, so His saints are the only people left alive on earth.
[This is proof that God's Saints (all of you Christians) will survive to the end and that God's Saints are not raptured up]. There are of course, many saints who may be Martyred.
These saints and everyone who has been Martyred for Jesus' name sake, will be in the first Resurrection and will reign with Christ for 1000 years.
After the 1000 years, satan is released and the rest of the dead are resurrected. The Bible says nothing about Jesus going back to heaven at this time. Jesus stays with the saints. Satan and his followers come after God's people here on earth and Jesus destroys them with fire from heaven.
Hell, the grave, and the sea spit up to dead in them and Jesus judges every man, woman and child according to their works. Yes, I said works!
The heaven disappears like a scroll rolled up and God creates the new heaven and a new earth.
This is when the people finally get to go to heaven or the lake of fire.
Jesus now returns to heaven, but the new heaven, and God lives in the new heaven with His people forever.
Unique
Sounds like you were taught by a certain demonation that believe only their faith of Christians are going to escape hell.
That means to me that Jesus wasted his blood for the rest of us that believe in him and feel the Holy Spirit as you say you do.
Why were we told by Paul in Galatians 3:28 There is nether Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, male nor female; for you are all one Christ Jesus. That tells me you think Paul is wrong in his teachings. Sorry but I have to go with Paul's writings.
Jesus descends from heaven. He stops in the clouds to meet his 144,000 then continues His second coming. He stands on mount Sion with the 144,000 as proof that they were caught up in the clouds to meet Him.
-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Aug 6, 2008, at 10:32 AM
Unique-Lies,
Still sounds like a one minute cloud ride.
I am a born again christian and I beleive that God will be with his people right up to the end. However, I have to warn christians that they have been mislead.
-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Tue, Aug 5, 2008, at 8:38 PM
Unique-Lies,
The only thing that is misleading is a born again Christian who says he is going to Hell with everyone else.
The only way someone born again is going to Hell is if they do indeed come out of the womb a second time as Nicodemas was thinking Jesus was talking about and think that qualifies them for being born again.
You have not been born again that way have you unique? Now that would be unique.
Sorry! I went to DQ and spilt some chocolate syrup on my White Robe when I was eating that Banana Split, so now I can't go to heaven with all you saints.
Funny you should ask me something that stupid, especially after Jesus explained it all to Nicodemus.
The womb that conceived me has gone to her grave and is awaiting for one of the two Resurrections to waken her out of her sleep, to be tested and judged by the Holy one.
When I asked jesus to come into my life and take over, My life changed instantly. I knew Jesus had come into my life, body and soul.
I had to test this feeling. I felt like I couldn't sin. It was impossible to sin. So, what did I do?
I deliberately sinned to see if I could. I could.
Years later I read hebrews and realized that my Salvation lasted maybe 10 minutes.
That is why I teach as I do. To maybe prevent others from doing the same thing and going down the wrong path with me.
The only hope for me is being Martyred or living long enough to see the beast and his image and be able to just say no!
Then and only then will my robe be cleansed again. There is hope for everyone if we are able to endure until the end.
If I die tomorrow, I go to Hell, but I will go down fighting and quoting scriptures in his face.
Sounds tough I know, however, I will just go to sleep and not be able to quote anything when I die.
Think about what you are saying!
If you think a born again christian can't lose his or her salvation, you need to read the letters to the 7 churches again and again. Many of the patriarchs in the old testament sinned against men and God and fell into sin. They had to pray hard to get back their forgiveness, but that was before Jesus was crucified.
Even King David, the king of Egypt and his army and Judus the betrayer where able to ask Jesus to forgive them and accept him when Jesus went to hell to tell them the true word of God and that their sins can be forgiven on Him. I bet most of them that we read about in the bible were saved.
Even they who died back then and Jesus witnessed to, will have to be resurrected and tested and judged. Some will be saint but not all of them.
Being Born again makes you a christian not a Saint. You have to talk the talk and walk the walk and give your life for the sake of Jesus and God to be a Saint.
Unique
We can always sin just as easy after were saved as before it's our choice. God will never take that away,I believe.
PS
Be careful of tempting God.
jesse sellers,
Sorry, I over looked your post somehow.
I believe in Pauls teaching 100% and don't deny what He taught. I only fine tune what he taught.
I have used Galations 3:28 in my posts to Michaelbell. He doesn't get into any heated debates but likes to read them. It makes his blogs more popular.
I am nondenomination but lean towards a charismatic baptist faith. I don't study with anyone or any church, althou I do watch several different church services and evangelists now and then.
I used to watch John Haggie a lot. He is getting closer to the truth than any of them that I have listened to. He uses the jewish festivals etc to tell him what is going to happen and when. Last time
I watched him he was preaching that people were going to just disappear but were going to get naked first and fold their close in a neat pile and be raptured up into heaven.
That is so stupid. If Christ is coming to get you, your aren't going to stop and take off your cloths and fold them up and place them neatly on a chair or on the ground beside you.
All the other churches preach they and the church will be raptured up and reign with Christ for 1000 years. This is false teaching because it is the Saints who are in the 1st Resurrection who reign with Christ 1000 years, not the 144,000 jews. Preacher Arnold is the one who really gets carried away. I can't believe a lot of what he teachers even thou he teaches book by book. Jack Van Impy is another one I tune in to once in a while. He produces and sells many videos that I don't agree with. Pat Robertson is more of a news media and commentator than a preacher any more. I wrote him a letter and he passed me off by saying many will prophesy in the last days. They are good preachers but they all preach they are going to be raptured up and miss all the fun. They are in for a rude awakening!
The souls who are caught up in the clouds are the 144,000 jews. The bible says they are the ones who are caught up in the air and return to earth with Christ when He returns. I don't say that, the bible does.
These 144,000 are not the Saints. They are Jews. The saints are described in Revelation 20:4. They are the people who have been beheaded for witnessing for God and testifying for Jesus. They were Martyred!
Also these Saints are described as being the people who make it through the trials and tribulations without accepting the mark of the beast and didn't worship the beast nor the false prophet.
These are the SAINTS! The christians fall in this catagory also. (Me and you and everybody from all walks of life. They are the people from all nations, tongues, kindred and sex.
If you stand out as a Saint by meeting the qualifications in Revelation 20:4, you will be in the 1st Resurrection and reign who Jesus for 1000 years.
To be a Saint you must have been Martyred or able to refuse the mark of the beast and not worship them, which could get you killed. This guarantees you a spot in the 1st Resurrection which makes you a king
and Preist to God and Jesus.
If you aren't Martyred, or killed nor accept the mark of the beast nor worship the beast you will be in the 2nd Resurrection with eveyone else.
Everyone who is a believer and has accepted Jesus, no matter what denomination, is a christian. Not a saint, but a christian. Your faith depend on what happens to you. I think we may all die before
the end comes so don't worry about the end times yet. Just know that it is coming soon and you need to know these things I am telling you.
No one has to believe what I say to be saved, you just need to know these things to help you understand why you need to be saved and how you may be able to end up as a Saint if you know the truth.
I believe in Pauls teaching 100% and don't deny what He taught. I only fine tune what he taught.
Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Aug 6, 2008, at 8:18 PM
Unique-Lies,
Paul needs no fine tuning what so ever. None. He just needs you to listen to him totally. Listen to what he says in Thessalonians carefully and quit trying to spin it. In no form or fashion was he talking to a group of virgin Jews.
1 Thessalonians
9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
These were Gentiles unique, not virgin Jews. These Gentiles are the ones he comforted with the explanation of the what we call the rapture.
Unique-Lies,
The more I read of your post the more it shows you think you can earn your way into heaven. You are indeed as lost as last years easter egg if you think that you can do that. No wonder you think you are going to Hell. We all would be if we had to earn our way in.
How severely you discount the sacrafice of the Lamb and trample it under foot.
Your mistake unique is that you have tried to save yourself from the wrath to come. It can not be done. Only what Jesus has done can do that.
So you now think your only hope is to be the sacrafice yourself?
Years later I read hebrews and realized that my Salvation lasted maybe 10 minutes.
-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Aug 6, 2008, at 2:14 PM
Unique-Lies,
Now that takes the cake. That really does take the cake. Matter of fact you should win the bag of jelly beans and the bozo button for that one.
What in the name of Hell is wrong with you unique.
The one minute cloud ride was bad enough but now we have a 10 minute salvation.
Sorry! I went to DQ and spilt some chocolate syrup on my White Robe when I was eating that Banana Split, so now I can't go to heaven with all you saints.
Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Aug 6, 2008, at 2:14 PM
Unique-Lies,
The problem unique is that you are trying to wear "your" white robe as your post says. No wonder you think your salvation only lasted 10 minutes.
Allow the Lamb to dress you with His white robe. Your salvation will last for an eternity.
parkerbrothers,
I have explained the rapture a dozen times and the saints who are not in heaven waiting to be raptured down to the clouds to meet Paul and the gentiles as you put in the clouds.
If you don't understand it by now you never will.
You are more worried about my salvation than I am. I don't expect anything and wait for whatever happens.
I said my only hope is being martyred or not except the mark or worship the beast.
That is a sure way to get to the kingdom of God. If you don't see it I can understand. Anyone who can read revelation 476 times and not be able to answer questions about it???
When you talk about being in the Rapture, you are talking to all kinds of people, nationals and tongues, Gentiles and Jews alike, but you may not live long enough to be in the rapture either, just like Paul.
At the same time in history Paul wrote the letter to the Galatians telling the Galatians (other Gentiles in Gal 3:26-29) that there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for all are one in Christ, Abrahams seed. So when Paul was speaking of the rapture Paul was speaking of all who are in Christ, not the Jew nor the Gentiles.
It was John in the book of Revelation who tells us who is to be raptured up and when. You read it. Remember, 476 times, and you still don't believe what John said.
Revelation 7:4-8 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
In Revelation 14:1
Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
Jesus just came down and landed on mount Sion and with him 144,000 what? Jews. They met Jesus in the air.
Now go back to revelation 7:9,10
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
Now here is the great multitude that you are preaching about. Who are they?
Revelation 7:14
14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
What tribulation is John talking about? The tribulation haven't really started yet.
Revelation 7:15
15 Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple;
John tells us that this great multitude is in heaven before the throne so how can they be "Raised up" into the clouds?
Also John sees this vision 2,000 years ago so what great tribulation have they gone thru? That must be the Roman tribulation.
Also according to your belief that John is correct and these things are happening right then, if these are the ones who are raptured up, then they have already been raptured up without all the present day christians, because you say all these souls are people in heaven 2,000 years ago.
Sorry you missed the rapture.
Now! If I am lying or deceiving the world, may the Holy Spirit strike me dead tonight in my sleep, then everyone will know I am of the devil. Just in case he does take me tonight, I leave you in the watchful hands of parkerbrothers. I would rather be dead than telling lies about God's Word.
What tribulation is John talking about? The tribulation haven't really started yet.
-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Aug 6, 2008, at 10:27 PM
Unique-Lies,
Well, let's see where John and Paul mention tribulations starting.
Roman 5:3
3And not only so, but we glory in "tribulations' also: knowing that "tribulation" worketh patience;
Romans 12:12
12Rejoicing in hope; patient in "tribulation"; continuing instant in prayer;
2 Corinthians 1:4
4Who comforteth us in all our "tribulation", that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2 Corinthian 7:4
4Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our "tribulation".
1 Thessalonians 3:4
4For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer "tribulation"; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
2 Thessalonians 1:4
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and "tribulations" that ye endure:
Revelation 1:9
9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in "tribulation", and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Act 14:22
22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much "tribulation" enter into the kingdom of God.
John 16:32-33
32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have "tribulation": but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Looks to me like Christians have been enduring tribulations from the begining right up through today.
Also note below is an example of what you are doing unique. Sometimes it is just one word you are adding to Revelation to give it a meaning you want it to have. But remember the warning says not to add a word. The first verse is actually out of the King James Bible. The second one is how you wrote the same verse and added the word "the" in front of great tribulation attempting to pass it off as "the great tribulation". John did not say they came out of "the great tribulation". He simply said they came out of great tribulation. In all the verses above the apostles talk about tribulations that all Christians go through in one form or another.
King James - Revelation 7:14
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Uniquelies - Revelation 7:14
14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
At the same time in history Paul wrote the letter to the Galatians telling the Galatians (other Gentiles in Gal 3:26-29) that there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for all are one in Christ, Abrahams seed. So when Paul was speaking of the rapture Paul was speaking of all who are in Christ, not the Jew nor the Gentiles.
-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Aug 6, 2008, at 10:27 PM
Unique-Lies,
Now that makes a little more sense from you.
So why were you trying to say it is was only the 144,000 virgin Jews in the rapture earlier?
Sorry everyone, I am still alive and well!
The everyday tribulations that we go thru are the tribulations you are talking about. Nothing great about trying to teach the people the truth and having some idiot speak out against evrey word you say. It does make it hard but that is just a minor tribulation. Being tempted and tormented everyday by lust, hatred, by your friends as well as your enemies and the strains the government puts on you by taxing you every time they need money and forcing you to take it out of your budget which doesn't cover your expenses for the cost of living or the IRS throwing someone in prison because they didn't pay their taxes or having to fear... you may be strip searched at any airport in the world if you fly, or maybe just being arerested because some informant told the cops you had drugs. Even some who are in prison for life because they had a couple joints on them. These are "the" Tribulations spoken of in your examples.
"The" Great Tribulation is singular so it means one! What you have just read are many tribulation(s).
-> Looks to me like Christians have been enduring tribulations from the begining right up through today.
-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Thu, Aug 7, 2008, at 6:31 AM
We will have tribulations the rest of our lives here on this earth. These are suppose to make us strnger in our faith. We are to thank God for these tribulations.
-> Also note below is an example of what you are doing unique. Sometimes it is just one word you are adding to Revelation to give it a meaning you want it to have. But remember the warning says not to add a word. The first verse is actually out of the King James Bible. The second one is how you wrote the same verse and added the word "the" in front of great tribulation attempting to pass it off as "the great tribulation". John did not say they came out of "the great tribulation". He simply said they came out of great tribulation. In all the verses above the apostles talk about tribulations that all Christians go through in one form or another.
King James - Revelation 7:14
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Uniquelies - Revelation 7:14
14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Thu, Aug 7, 2008, at 6:31 AM
The verse I quoted above came from the NIV Bible. They added the word "THE" to the verse. My computer automatically goes to the INV Bible. I have to change the bible lookup for the King James. The INV translation just makes it easier for people to understand the bible.
In your case, it didn't.
However great tribulation (or "the" Great Tribulation) is one tribulation not many so that ought to explain that even to a child. I realize our English language isn't the same as Greek nor Hebrew but it is still our language and we need to know how to use it.
-> So why were you trying to say it is was only the 144,000 virgin Jews in the rapture earlier?
-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Thu, Aug 7, 2008, at 6:37 AM
Because God's Word tells us WHO was Sealed in the Foreheads and the Number. John said I heard the number, it was 144,000. Then He lists the tribes and tells us that these people who God choose to be sealed were Jews from the 12 tribes.
After John tells us about the 144,000, he tells us about the great multitude standing before the throne.
One of the Elders tell John these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
NOWHERE in the Bible does it say they are "Raptured Up" nor "Caught Up in the Air Nor the Clouds".
Please SHOW US IF IT DOES!
Nothing else is said about the Rapture (caught up in the air or caught up in the clouds) until we get to chapter 14:1, where John Tells us "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."
These are the same jews that Jesus had his name written in their foreheads in chapter 7. One chapter they are on earth alive and in another chapter they are with Jesus as He returns.
In verse 3 John says these 144,000 were redeemed from the earth, so they were caught up in the clouds, not "the" great multitude. The Great Multitude is still in heaven according to YOU! They went to heaven as they died (according to you and over 6 Billion other people), so they don't need to rise up nor be raptured up.
NOWHERE does the Bible say anything about the great multitude being raised up in the clouds.
The Bible only says they were redeemed, but then, so were you redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, but you haven't been raised up.
You won't be raised up in the clouds, you will be Resurrected up to the top of the ground where you will have to be tempted by satan again.
Nothing else is said about the Rapture (caught up in the air or caught up in the clouds) until we get to chapter 14:1, where John Tells us "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."
Posted by Posted by Unique-Lies on Thu, Aug 7, 2008, at 11:55 AM
Unique-Lies,
I see nothing about a rapture in this above??
My last thoughts on this before we go on to a new subject is!
In my opinion when God calls his children home whether it be before , mid or after trib I will be going.
If I am martyred I will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye , and I'll be going.
To give people the ideal that they might or might not be going no matter how they believe or act is not much of a gospel "good news message" now is it?
Jesus says that those who watch for him will see him and I watch everyday!
The rapture was taught by 1st century Christians who studied under the Apostles themselves I tend to hold more stock in them that the ones teaching today.
When Brother Marvin and Brother Jessie and myself hear the trumpet and are caught up I hope and pray you will be with us, but if not, May God keep you safe until you are martyred then we will see you then.
Michaelbell,
The answer was in verse 3 where John says they were redeemed from the earth.
Don't look for me being in your rapture. I will only be in one of the two Resurrections where I belong.
Read Revelation 20:4 to see what happens to the people who are Martyred.
Don't ever say, no one ever told you!
The Bible says every eye shall see him, so you don't have to be looking for him. He said when someone tells you he is here or there, don't even go out and look. You will know when He has returned, but wait, you and Marvin and Jessie will be in the clouds when he returns won't you.
I am ready to move on to something else now also. No one seems to get it.
I won't ruin your next Blog. I will leave it to you experts. I must really be a pain.
I think if parkerbrothers is the only one who knows enough about the bible to discuss it with someone like me, you need to think hard and long about who you are going to follow. Everyone needs to read it for themselves and forget what we tell you. Take it with a grain of salt until the hole spirit reveals the truth to you.
I don't follow anyone and won't let anyone follow me.
I will be watching and reading and may jump in when everyone least expects it.
I am ready to move on to something else now also. No one seems to get it.
Posted by Unique-Lies on Thu, Aug 7, 2008, at 6:42 PM
Unique-Lies,
No one can get something when there is nothing to be got. I have to give you credit though on having the most unusual twist I have ever seen laid on Revelation.
Also bear in mind unique that from the earliest of times most who were disciples of the apostles, such Polycarp and Clements, believed and taught in an imminent and pre tribulational rapture of Christians.
I must really be a pain.
Posted by Posted by Unique-Lies on Thu, Aug 7, 2008, at 6:42 PM
Unique-Lies,
You are not a pain. A little cantankerous, but diffinitely not a pain. I kind of like you.
I just wish you knew you could go to heaven with us without having to go and get your head chopped off.
It will not be fun trying to discuss things in heaven with you if you do not have a head on your shoulders. But, then again, it has been fun discussing things on here with you when it appears you have lost your head sometimes. :) :) :)
No your are not a pain.
We ALL believe Christ born of a virgin.
We All believe Christ died for our sins.
We ALL believe Christ rose again.
We ALL believe Christ is coming back.
That is all that matters to me and to him!
Unique
No pain, see you made some friends even if we don't agree.
I believe the glass will soon be clear for all of us.
A warning...while you are simply stating what you believe you may be shaking the faith of a weaker Christian who is just learning to walk.
Don't cause them to fall.
Monkey Killer,
That is the only reason I have stopped. Everyone had left the Blog and may or may not have been monitoring the posts of parkerbrothers and myself. I can only think that no one wanted to read along and jump in with any useful information.
What everyone learns in church and sunday school is "baby food" and "milk". It is the simplest teachings of the story of Christ and Salvation.
There comes a time when you are suppose to grow up and start feeding yourself.
This is when you learn what Jesus has to say to you and when the Truth that is hidden in the Bible is revealed. Most of you think, if anything is hidden in the bible, it will be revealed to you in church and sunday school.
No! That is "Baby Food" or "Milk" that you learn in church and sunday school. The Real truth is hidden in the scriptures just like the parables were used by Jesus to hide the truth from the nonbelievers.
It is the Holy Spirit who reveals these truths to you. You don't learn it by reading it and reading it 476 times. It has to be explained by the Holy Spirit.
I don't want to take anyones baby food or milk away from them, so I will sit back and maybe monitor in silence.
Listen to parkerbrothers, he will teach everyone the Baby Food and Milk all over again and again. No one will grow in Christ, but at least everyone will know enough that God can judge them after everyone is raised from sheol.
Unique-Lies,
While I will agree that there comes a time to wean off the baby food and milk at least baby food and milk will allow someone to grow if that is what you think it is.
I would be more worried about the poison you were trying to lace in a lot of the times.
God is not the author of confusion and has not hid great secrets in His word that only a few gnostics and yourself can find.
It is a simple plan of salvation and only the work of Satan will make it appear as anything else.
True salvation is eternal. It is not a 10 minute thrill. You do not have to have your head chopped off in order to be saved "again" just because you failed to remain perfect and sinned once after you thought you were saved.
Christ was only nailed to the cross once unique and you are only saved once and it is forever. It was a finished and complete work of faith by Jesus. Even he said "It is finished".
To be saved "again" and "again" would be to crucify Christ "again" and "again".
Monkey Killer,
Most children will fall several times when they are just learning to walk. Each fall makes them stronger as they pull themselves up.
Uniquelies is right in regard to the comment " There comes a time when you are suppose to grow up and start feeding yourself".
Most children are ready for the milk nipple to be removed once they are ready to start walking. Even if they are still on the nipple they usually sit at the table with the older ones that are eating meat and drinking tea.
I have been monitoring your posts with interest, but I have no insight into the "correct" doctrine of salvation, justification or sanctification. There is not much I could add to the discussion given I do not believe I have much riding on the argument, nor an acceptable conclusion.
I know a lot of what the bible says, and to my way of thinking, accepting one set of beliefs as sufficient, necessarily means you have to ignore, neglect or at least creatively interpret the scriptures that support some of the other beliefs.
I do believe you both are right, but that means I think you are also both wrong if you are only using the Bible to justify your beliefs and assume the position you each seem to accept as infallible and wholly representative of scripture. If you are basing your opinions on a feeling or deeper understanding, then I wouldn't know enough about that to have an opinion.
If I were a Christian, I would try to find some middle ground. It is much too easy to rely 100% on salvation given from Jesus, and much too hard to rely 100% on sanctification from ones own will. Somewhere between the two extremes would fit my ideal of Christianity best, and I think reflect the scriptures accurately.
I also think it is accurate to interpret Revelation through some books of the OT and a few in the NT. The writer was aware of these books and their acceptance, just as Paul in his Epistles and the writers of the Gospels were. I do not think it would be out of context to go back and see what some other books say about specifics, given you may find conflicting theologies in different books in the Bible.
You two are not the first to embrace different answers to this question though. I am reminded of some of the schisms of the historical church developing from these very same ideas when I read your comments and understand just how firmly you each appear to find yourself rooted in your opinions. Interesting stuff.
Unique
This may be baby food to you, but its no parable just stright talk and true.
1st John 5:10-13
He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made him - a liar,because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life,and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
P.S
Where does say in the Bible that God hides the truth from Christians.
As the Bible and Jesse Sellers quotes above:
"that you may know you have eternal life"
It gets no better than that.
Monkey Killer
Keep the Ten Commandments. (even though its illegal to be displayed in our government buildings today.)
Never loose sight allways remember, that Jesus Christ is the son of a living God. A man that never sined,wrongfully accused, convicted, tortured, and died for the world's sins. Deafeted death, and the grave,acended to his father pored his unstained blood on the mercy seat. To make it possibly for us to repent of our sins, and come back into the grace of God as gentiles.
No greater love can be shown to mankind than to give a your life for him.
Go to church it helps to make you stronger, and grow when you associate with believers.
Nitty gritty details will be worked out in time.What we don't know now we will learn later, just don't loose the sight of the master Jesus Christ he will carry you the rest of the way home.
That is the main thing you need to know.
1 John 3:7-10
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
So you see, It IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SIN if you are Born again because God is within you.
If you willfully sin, well, God isn't in you because you CAN NOT SIN when God is in you. If you do commit a knowing sin, then God has left the building, meaning your body (the Temple of God). Your salvation is gone forever, because you CAN NOT crucify Christ again and agin for your personal sins.
Unique-Lies,
Wrong again unique. It does not say it is impossible to sin again if you are born again. It says no one will continue to sin and he can not go on sinning.
When we are born again the seed of God is indeed implanted in us. It will war with all sin we allow into the temple with us from the day of salvation forward. This war with the new implanted man in us against the old man will be felt in each of us every time we sin and it will convict our hearts and souls.
Before we were born again the old man had free rein in us. We sinned and thought little of it. When the new man moves in the old man has to leave. The old man will continue though to try and work his way back in to the old homestead. We are promised the new man will never forsake or leave us.
This is even seen in the verse 9 you posted above which says:
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
Unique, I am shown the whole story of the old man and the new man in verse 9. If you notice nothing else I hope you at least see the words in verse 9 that says "because God's seed remains in him". It says it all.
The old man of sin will visit you but the new man is not going to leave you. They will war with each other every time they get in the same room together but Gods word says "the new man will remain in me".
Perhaps you allowed a different seed to be implanted into you that did leave and forsake you in 10 minutes. If it did not remain in you it was not of the seed of God. Maybe it was an angel of light that deceived you.
jesse sellers,
I was glad to see your post above that told of the pouring of the unstained blood of Christ on the Mercy Seat.
Everyone talks of trying to find the Ark of the Covenant at various locations they think it might be here on earth. I have always wondered if they knew they were wasting their time if it is sitting in heaven.
jesse sellers,
Also I was wondering if anyone ever stops to think of why the mercy seat was to be made of "solid" gold and the two cherubims were to be "beaten" from one piece and facing each other and the mercy seat.
uniquelies,
Read this verse that is by John before the ones you posted.
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
I think you should be able to see it says the same thing I was telling you earlier. His whole letter demonstrates that we will not sin in like manner as before salvation but if we do sin, we have an advocate in our Savior. He will not leave or forsake you.
John is not describing an advocate who will jump ship on you in the first 10 minutes. If He is the captain of your ship He will stay aboard for the entire trip through the calm seas, raging storms and all ports of call. He commands unsinkable ships shielded by mercy and powered by blood.
Unique
Sorry, I missed A day talking with you and Parker.
You seem to think deeply. Now I'am going to ask you to read deeply.
Go out side the Bible go to the libary check out a book by C.S. Lewis. (MERE CHRISTIANITY) It's deep to me, but probably not for you, and may help you to reconsider your opinions.
You remember he was one of the better known Atheist of our time, and was considered a genus.