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Shelbyville, Tennessee ~ Wednesday, December 3, 2008
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Contracts, Deals and Are Trades Allowed?
Posted Sunday, August 10, 2008, at 8:15 AM<< Previous | Read comments | Respond | Email link | Next >>
I watch a lot of sports and always see the monster contracts with guarantees and incentives and all the other.
Even in business deals you hear of contracts and packages.
In God's world you have it now, with the story of Jerry Sutton.
Yes, I believe a pastor should get paid , but not at the expense of spreading the word.
I have more of less cut ties with my former church for personal reasons and took up visiting other churches to see what all the unchurched are fussing about.
I believe I see now because the guilt trip of tithes and offerings to pad some pastors wallets is being drove home.
I truly believe if a man is "called of God" as the bible says he is, he can work and get inspired messages and fulfill his duty.
If a church can and wants to support a full time pastor and family fine , if not then they should not.
It should be a passion to preach not a job so the pay should not matter.
How many in church leaderships who know and keep track of "who puts in what" cater to those people and don't speak against those people or their sins.
I am not saying all churches or pastors do this I know several that don't, but on the whole , who really knows what?
The contracts and package deals is what really bothers me, maybe as in sports the incentives have to be earned, like how many led to Christ or how often church attendance goes up or down or other things of God's work that is accomplished or not.
If all the requirements are met then maybe offer some incentives or bonuses.
One of the pre-reqs for the priest in the days of Moses was that he could not have "damaged stones" in the flesh this means he had to be able to reproduce a son to carry on the priesthood in the spirit a pastor has to reproduce after himself"people who get saved and carry on the word".
I wonder if a preacher of a certain denomination who grew up in that one and was educated in that kind of teaching and had worked in that church for years, and even talked against other "kinds of churches" would jump ship if offered a better deal with more incentives?
That is selling out God to me!
When God blesses me with a church to spread his word I hope through careful planning and guidance of the Holy Spirit that I don't fall into that trap.
If I ever offer a trade of a song leader , two deacons and two disgruntled families for a Elder and some songbooks then I have fallen.
I will be content with a small church with dedicated people who love and care for each other and Love the Lord Jesus most of all.
If I make $2 or $2000 it is for God's kingdom not my luxury.
To pay for expenses there will be cd's made and sold and other things to meet the expenses but they will be met before mine.
With God's blessing sometime in the near future "Crossroads Church" will be a fact and not a prayer.
Choices will be made and lives will be changed!
The worship will be simple and as close to what was intended by the original First century Christians.
Unlike most churches Easter will not be A special day, but Passover will be celebrated as it is supposed to be.
Christmas will be celebrated as the Greatest announcement for Mary became pregnant this day which proves to me that life begins at conception.
Sunday's service will be open to those that want to stay all day or whatever God leads them to do.
Praise and worship will be a mixture of old and new for both lambs and sheep need to be fed.
Traditional teachings along with today's headlines will be taught.
Christian's need to be aware of what is going on in the world around them .
They have become to comfortable in the pews while ther are being trampled on.
Put a frog in boiling water and he will jump out, put him in cold water and crank it up he will boil!
Right are being taken away slowly and we don't even notice it!
We will pick and choose one ministry to support and one area of need to put our full support behind.
Churches put to many pans in the fire and burn eventually.
We will be a voice to be heard as far as the events of the day go.
Most of all The WORD will be taught, no cotton candy or fuzzy ducks!
Sin will be called sin and that is as simple as it gets.
Anybody wants to partner with me in this venture feel free to contact me at pastormikebell@charter.net
Look to the Crossroads of life and choose your road carefully for getting off the narrow path can lead to being lost forever.
Be Blessed
Pastor Mike. Comments Showing comments in chronological order [Show most recent comments first] |
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Amen! Church has become a big business. They are always begging for money. Yes, we all should tithe, the bible teachesd this. But, I see way to often guilt pressure put upon "the flock". I too, have stepped away from organized religion for some of the same reasons you stated. I grew up in the church, my family was in the church everytime the doors were open. I still have my faith, beliefs, and most of all my love of God. Just looking for a place to gather with others.
Pastor Mike
I agree with hallsmillmom God requires 10% of our earnings, like her I don't mind them asking for an extra offering, but don't beat me over the head with it ever time I enter the church and put me on a guilt trip because I can't.
That gives me the impression money is more important than their flock because of the time and effort some churches place on it..
To Halls mills mom you will be welcomed to crossroads once it comes into existence.
Maybe we can figure a way to start meeting somewhere before then e- mail me and we will discuss it
I thought back then a tithe was to help take care of the poor and widows and such. Don't we have taxes for that now?
I'm with HallMillMom. church has become big business and if we only knew.......
Yes , but the church is supposed to help out its own, but only if the family won't provide.
PAUL says to take care of the true widows[ those most likely not to marry again] and the orphans.
If John Doe refuses to work then shame on him and his wife for putting up with it.
These stay at home dads should be working instead of the moms.
The church has to use discernment when dealing out funds.
I would be blessed if somebody brought can or dry goods to the church each week to help in times of need.
In the days of Moses the families all lived close together and took care of each other, the church should do the same.
Just seems to me that when the pastor and or his family drives fancy cars and have fancy homes and clothes, while those in the church struggle to pay a light bill or to buy food or medicine , something just seems wrong with that picture.
The shepherd are supposed to protect and provide for his sheep , not the other way around.
If the food pantry at a church stayed full then when one of the members fell on hard times they would pull through.
When they got back on their feet they would return the blessing hopefully.
These pastors with jets and two or more houses and several cars what is wrong with!
If God has blessed them then fine if a well off church member or group of members then fine.
But it is not the churches job to give them luxuries while they suffer.
Michael,
I commend you for you enthusiasm and willingness to serve, I have a concern. Passover is a jewish tradition, around which we celebrate Easter. The early Christians were jews and were still developing new practices. Paul, when he went to the Gentiles, had to teach the Gentiles about Christ without teaching jewish traditions and expecting those traditions to be followed. The early Christians more than likely celebrated "Easter" with each worship service. After all, it was his death and resurrection that has saved us from our sins. The early Christians celebrated a form of Passover, but most likely not Passover. Acts 15 appears to be the first reference on how to teach converted Gentiles. Some were teaching that the Gentiles had to be circumcised, "the custom as taught by Moses", hence the question discussed by the Council at Jerusalem. It was decided that the Gentiles should "abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these thing." When we say we are going to return to the 1st century church we have to remember that they were still learning under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the Apostles. They were still babes in Christ as Paul likes to say, most not quite ready for the meat yet. While the modern church needs to be following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, let it move us forward and not backwards.
Thank you for your topic that has nothing to do with interpretations of the Bible (yet). I think if you are serious about starting a new church, the best way to go about it is what you have just written. I do not think the earliest places of worship were grand fancy buildings that remained empty most of the time. I think the majority were small house churches and there was little or no pay involved. The tithes appear to have been used to care for the poor, and to missionaries to get out the good news. (not that taking care of the poor with no thought of return is not a missionary cause)I do agree with you that the spiritual leaders today do have their eye on building a career. I also believe the money that is used to build the large churches and support several families could be put to a more Christian use. Does a Church Leader deserve a salary and home for his family for doing the Lords work? I guess that depends on what the members think. I think that if the members agree and want to support several families and they have the means to, then that is okay for them. If I remember Pauls thoughts correctly though, church organization was one of the few areas that he completely and decidedly split from the OT teachings, and he is pretty clear about it. He made no mention of supporting a tribe and opened it up to each as they could.
Actually, the day we celebrate as Christmas is the represented day of the birth of Christ. The Feast of Annunciation (in mid-March I think) is the day celebrated for the conception or incarnation or whatever you choose to refer to it as. It is not a big deal, but I thought I should mention it. I do not see any reason why a modern Christian church should not celebrate Passover, but I do see clearly why the same church should probably not celebrate the Easter Bunny.
In your second comment, you mentioned the man of a household should work instead of the woman. I think that is a slightly out of date concept at this point. I do not dis-agree with you necessarily, but I would be happy to see either one of the parents of a child at home with them. Today I looked at the home page of the TG and saw an article about Fairlane closing its daycare and read the comments. I wanted to write a comment something to the effect of "Why dont you good people live within your means, and take care of your own children?" but I did not think that would solve anything for anyone.
I am not so young that I do not remember Fairlanes embracing of the ERA movement. It was a decision that was very liberal for a church here at the time. I believe it was also a decision motivated by the tithe. What could be an easier way to double the tithe? It did not even require more members. That was, to say the least, a short sighted decision. What started out as a place families could trust with their children while mommy worked some has apparently evolved into a never ending commitment that places work and money above family. When the day care started very few children being served had any less than 2 parents. Not more than 2, but exactly 2 parents with an average of 1 1/2 incomes. I am sure the church noticed eventually that when the family unit started changing, so did the structure of the "normal" family. When the cohesion of the family started to change, there was less importance for having both parents and the decision to divorce was much easier to justify. Ironically, what started out as a way to build up the family and the church has backfired. What we appear to have today are children being raised by strangers and parent/parents working to buy things that they do not really need, nor can they afford. Most people today work at least 1/3 of their lives just to pay interest. Having a mortgage and a couple of car payments is not only acceptable, it is expected. The true cost of this particular social experiment cannot be measured yet though. It will be added up 50 years from now and likely on the top of the list will be correctional facilities and mental health facilities along with the social services these people may need.
Sharon22, I am not so sure I could agree with you about how Christians today have matured to the point of outgrowing the Bible.(paraphrased, I know-sorry) I agree that tradition dictates this as accepted and understood, but that is a very hard position to defend, unless you are just going by your opinion.
Last thing, while Paul had, and advocated a strong work ethic, the same may not necessarily be true of Jesus. His teachings were not so clear in that area.
memyselfi,
If you go back and look I did not say they matured to the point of outgrowing of the Bible(it was just in the process of being written), just borrowed a phrase from Paul. I sure hope we never, ever mature to the point of outgrowing the Bible, at least till we all get to the place where we get the answers to the question in person.
Yeah, I do realize that was trying to narrow it down a lot and unfair, but I was already tired of typing. I actually realized that right after it came out of my fingers and if you didnt notice, I already apologized.
As I understand it,the flock began paying its leaders as recompense for their devoting themselves full-time to the church instead of supporting themselves in the world.
(Rather like voters supplying residences,vehicles,support staff,security,etc. to political officials and their families to make up for the disruption of their homes and livlihoods during their terms of office.)
A rabbi was supported by his community and,later on,denominations employed pastors who could be moved in much the same manner as a corporation might transfer an executive or the military might station an officer.
Colleges,stores and even factories applied the model of feudal times where the worker belonged to the place he served and was provided with the necessities of life much as family members and non-human livestock.
Today,we're trying to figure out what our churches and ministers have become.
Is a church a corporation and the preacher its C E O?
Is it a community and the pastor its mayor?
Is the minister a free agent who can be hired and fired by a board,an employee who can be shuffled about or is his church and congregation something that belongs to him?
(Watch Robert DuVall in "The Apostle" for an example of who "owns" and runs a congregation and ministry.)
When the inevitable clashes occur,the results can depend less upon the will of God and more about who has the power to oust whom.
Can a minister appoint or dismiss teachers,secretaries,choir leaders,etc. at will?
Does a pastor have the power to excommunicate,shun or disfellowship congregants who won't follow his lead?
If the congregation attatches itself to the preacher,he can dictate what occurs within his domain.
If he is an employee,he could have too temporary a position to make rulings that would affect the church long after he was gone from their midst.
All of this could bring up arguments over building programs,parsonages,outreach programs,who is "allowed" to attend or hold office and whether or not the pastor's family works for them for free.
If a church is begun by one person or group of persons,then what happens when they are out of the picture and others succeed to their positions?
The church has taken many paths for many legitimate reasons.
Today,it may need to create a new form to accommodate its current duties.
(That form may or may not take inspiration from the past.)
The question is,will we be following our own ideas or heeding the leadership of God?
With Him,we can serve from a hermitage or a whole nation devoted to His service.
Without Him,the home altar,the commune,the chapel in the wildwood,the soaring cathrdral or the mega-church with the resort,cafe,studio,university and twelve-story parking garage have no great part in the world's destiny.
What we do,where we do it and how we support it matter less than why we do it and who we are following as we perform our actions.
Our justifications need not be excuses and we can be acting for admirable goals instead of reacting against that which we dislike.
We can seek to reform or we can choose to build something new.
But,we need place ourselves on God's team instead of naming Him the MVP of ours.
That was a mouthful or handful but it is so right.
Thanks!
This church business is harder than it looks.
(You're braver than I would be.)
Y'all know I like fuzzy ducks but,too often,my quantumcat solution would be:
1. Make everyone on Earth a believer.
2. Stress the priesthood of all believers.
3. Insist that all priests be celibate.
If we could just pull off the first one,we might not need the decline in population.
We're so familiar with mainstream Christianity.
I wonder what's going on with other sects.
Are there any Jews or Copts or Plain folk,Greek Orthodox,Unitarians,etc. who could tell what their members and governing bodies are experiencing?
There might be a lot of growing pains and re-invention going on wherever we look.
If you want a good simple country church to go to that doesn't get mixed up with all the stuff the big churches do then come on out and visit us at Unionville First Baptist Church at 1934 Halls Mill Rd. in Unionville.
michael,
Im sorry you're not coming to lighthouse anymore. I have fallen in love with the place, and its people.
I have not quit going completely, just taking some time away to see if that is where I am supposed to be .
I will have my own church one day so I am going to visit other churches to see what is up.
My main goal is to keep God's work a Passion and not a profession like so many has.
I'll be praying that you (and the rest of our dads) become some of those fathers who refuse to work.
You know the old saying:
"Find something you love.
Find a way of getting paid for doing it.
Never 'work' again in your life."
Nothing could be better than for God to lead you to a job you'd pay for the chance to perform and have folks give you the means of supporting your families while you do it.
It's good that you're treating this time as part of the growing period of your ministry and not time wasted until your church is born full grown.
One has to prepare the soil before the planting then the seed has to grow a bit before one knows whether it has taken hold.
(With the right preparation,even sand and rock can hold fast and be productive.)
Michael,you might be getting ready for a great success as a down-home pastor- or you might have to face the "failure" Michael Landon did when he didn't become a professional track star or Billy Sunday did when his baseball career fizzled.
The critics might find your dreams as unlikely as people once viewed the prospects of Woody Allen,Albert Einstein,Fred Astaire,Walt Disney,Ludwig Van Beethoven,and John Grisham.
But,God has his own plans and His own means of fulfilling them.
Follow His lead in His time and don't be surprised if He gives you the desires of your heart (not necessarily what you have written down on your calendar) when you don't even see it coming.
Too often,we assume we can do anything on our own or we assume we'll be given a way of doing an end-run around our limits or we give up on accomplishing anything before we start.
We forget that our Lord gives us what we require before the tasks ever come up.
If we give all our mind body and spirit to Him,He'll give us enough of Himself to reach the goals we've set together.
Thank you and God Bless!