The Fifth and Sixth Seal

michaelbell,

Now who is Tuning the bible verses?

How stupid do you think I am?

The bible tells us that Flesh and Blood will not enter Heaven. That is just common sense. Why would you even think anyone was talking about man in the flesh going to heaven?

Parkerbrothers and Jesse Sellers are the ones who said John went to heaven and saw "people" in heaven not "Souls".

See how unprofessional they can make you sound, when you listen to them?

But Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:13 that no man has gone to heaven except he that came down from heaven.

Let's look at that verse for a minute:

John 3:13 (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The (KJV) tells us that no man except he that came down from heaven.

BUT... the next sentence says "even the Son of man which is in heaven." Does that mean..."not even the Son of man" which is in heaven, or "except the Son of man" which is in heaven?

Jesus wasn't in heaven at the time he was telling this to Nicodemus so why did he tell Nicodemus that he was in heaven?

Jesus hadn't been crucified yet so he hasn't ascended into heaven yet.

Jesus did come down before when he spoke to Abraham, so Jesus did descend and ascend into heaven before.

Melchizedek came down from heaven then ascended back up into heaven. Melchizedec was God who was the only entity who it could have been. So Jesus may have been talking about his Father coming down from heaven and not himself.

Now let's look at the New International Version:

John 3:13

13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

Here we read what the Translators want us to believe. There is no question as to what they are saying. It is very easy to understand, but how accurate is it?

Both translations refer to Jesus as the Son of man, not a soul or spirit but the "Son" of man, which is in heaven. We all know that human bodies don't go to heaven, only souls and spirits. At least I hope everyone knows this.

We still have the question of, where are the two prophets if they didn't go to heaven.

Jesus told Nicodemus, long after Enoch and Elijah were gone that no man (soul or spirit) has gone to heaven except the one who came down from heaven.

This would also include Moses and Arron, Noah, and the Patriarchs (Abraham, Issac, Jacob and King David) as souls not in heaven.

In order to go to heaven, all souls must first be Resurrected. To say we are not Resurrected would mean Jesus wasn't Resurrected and his death would mean nothing.

To say we are Resurrected would mean we are not Raptured up.

jesse sellers,

Can't say I blame you.

I have never read anything about the size of a souls. I have just assumed that it was life size. I could be wrong, but that never interested me because it isn't that important an issue to me and doesn't change anything I believe. For example, you couldn't limit a soul to a pine box of any size. Satan can change his appearance to anything or anyone making himself look like a loved one so that would also include any size.

Jesse God is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. God was never born and will never die. He never came from anywhere and will never go off anywhere. A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day to God. SO God has no limits, including room or where He can go.

You are wrong Jesse. I do open my eyes to scripture and to everything you ask or anyone else asks me. I answer ever question with quotes in the Bible. I even use the New International Version along with the KJV just to make sure I don't misunderstand any scriptures if I am not familar with them.

I tell everyone to do the same and not take my word for anything. just read it for yourself. If you aren't sure what the scriptures mean try another translation for proofing.

Jesus was talking about the same thing you think he was talking about. The only thing is... Jesus wasn't talking about yesterday or today or tomorrow. Jesus was talking about prepareing a place for you in his father's kingdom. That kingdom won't be available to anyone until after the second death and the final judgment. Time doesn't mean anything to Jesus and He is patient. Nothing is ready for people to be Resurrected yet and the rapture of the Jews won't happen until Christ returns. Before anything can happen the anti-christ has to reign here on earth.

Moses and Abraham and sleeping in their graves. The two prophets are a different story.

Enoch walked with God and God took him.

Genesis 5:24

Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

2 Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

So here we see two verses that says both of these prophets went to heaven. Moses tells us about Enoch, Noahs great grandfather. Jeremiah tells us about Elijah.

But Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:13 that no man has gone to heaven except he that came down from heaven.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

So just where they are right now, I really don't know because there is a discrepancy in the bible verses. They were not killed nor did they die so they still have to die, but that will happen after they prophecy.

Jesse, each scripture is capable of having several important facts in them that apply to other scriptures and not just the one they are written in. That is why we have to read them closely and know where else they may apply.

I have to admit that I am a believer of the willful sinner not being forgiven of the willful sin, but not sure about other sins. I know what everyone is saying about the law and being forgiven but believe your salvation can be taken away by God if you don't deserve it.

You should trust your heart. If I am speaking evil things in an evil way I would be evil. I don't think that is the way I am.

I have been teaching for years, but not in a church. I only plant seeds everywhere I go and leave it up to God to make it take hold, if it's from God.

Unique

Just had to see your quotes before I go to bed.

How big is a soul, and how much room would it take up?

Is God Limited for room?

Is God limited where he may go?

Sorry, I think you either want open your eyes or can't. Yes - I also realize you think the same about us.

When Jesus told he was going to prepair a place for us. What do you think he was talking about?

Is Moses, Abraham,and the two prophets are they in the grave?

I still suggest you read the scriptures and meditate and study on them before make your final judgement.

I think your smart but maybe just maybe your to smart and something is there in those scriptures that you can't see and understand them.

I didn't say you were satan, just suggested you could be under his influence.

Good night all.

Unique-Lies,

Go back to the archives and beat the horse by yourself until you are content. As I told you it is a waste of time to repeat the same thing over and over.

You and I have went through Revelations from the four horseman to the souls under the altar to the 144,000 to the trumpets to the bowls.

I am satified that you are content with the idea that you can add to and take away from Revelation, change its order, and tune it to the harmony of your ears and have some new gnostic secret that only you can understand.

As I have told you I am not going to beat a dead horse for the lack of having something to do. I will be glad to discuss another horse with you but the beating of the dead one I leave for you to do.

If you want to discuss your last far fetched and unusual comment of..... "In order to go to a paradise or heaven, you would have to be judged as a good soul first" I will partake. I am actually willing to listen to your nonsense on this new topic and perhaps even venture into correcting your new misunderstanding with you.

parkerbrothers, jessesellers, bellbuckletn and Michael Bell;

Good souls vs Bad souls

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

(Even Daniel knew that when we die we sleep and when we are woke up we are Resurrected)

It sounds to me like you, "who speak for all the Christians in the world", believe all Christians will be in a Rapture, thereby denying that everyone is Resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:12-19

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

Christ has been raised and is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep (or Died, as everyone should be able to read for themselves, proving again by the words of God, that when we die we sleep)

Because of Adam we must all die, and because of Christ we must all live again, but we must take our own turn.

First Christ was raised, the firstfruit of those who sleep. Then when Christ returns, those who belong to him (the good souls who were reborn and abode in his word).

Jesus remains on this earth until the last enemy (death) is destroyed. Then God hands His Kingdom over to His Son, Jesus CHrist.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Then the Resurrection is explained. We all have diferent flesh so we will be raised in our diferent flesh.

Our bodies will be changed in a flash when we are "RESURRECTED" and those who are dead in Christ will be raised first.

This is the Resurrection and not your "Rapture"!

1 Corinthians 15:50-54

50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--

52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

Oh my, that speaks about a Resurrection not your famous "Rapture" that takes you away.

Regroup! Unique-Lies has spoiled your "in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye" "Rapture" theory.

It was all a hoax created by the churches and continues on today and is incouraged by Christians as well.

Unique,

You avoided the question of ""Just exactly what is a "good soul"?"" by rambling off with 50 questions that we have already gone over and over and over.

As I told you I do not think repitition if an effective learning tool once we pass the age of eight years old. I believe both you and I past that point of life and have referred you back to the archives where you can read the answers over and over and over again if repitition still works for you.

Let's answer a new question. What exactly is this "good soul" that you mentioned? What brand of scales are you suggesting be used to weigh that one out?

Unique

If you truly believe that when you sin that Jesua cannot forgive you again,then you are saying the Holy Spirit has left you too.

Did you study the verses or just fire back because your perfer your assumption with out study or thought. Keep standing on your unique beliefs that God"s servents or preachers lie to us. If they are God will judge and settle that not you.

I personal believe you sound a little like the serpent talking to Eve.

By the way who do you believe is the author of confusion God or satan?

Who's influence are you under or have you ever thought about it? Since you believe God or Jesus don"t hear your prayers anymore. Who is leading you then or should I say what? I guess misery loves company. Still love you, but I'am not going down that long and lonely road of no faith with you.

jesse sellers, you posted:

Parker

Before Christ - the dead who trusted in God went to Abraham"s bosom. When Christ died he went there and took the believers with him to Paradise. They remain there until Christ's return and they will be with him.

You must be saying that all the people who died in the old testament that believed in God and sinned only a little, went to Abraham's bosom.

Abraham must have one hell of a large bosom!

When Christ died he went to hell and woke up all the souls of the people, even the good souls, so he could preach the good news to all.

Then you teach that Christ took all the souls who believed him and put them in a paradise somewhere.

Where is this paradise, Jesse? Paradise is not described nor its location revealed in the bible except in the new heaven.

You are teaching that Christ will return again and go to this paradise to get all of them?

You also posted:

People who are saved today and die go straight to Paradise. 2 Cor - 5:8

2 Cor - 5:8 has nothing to do with a paradise somewhere! It is speaking of our earthly body and a future spiritual body in heaven.

What are all these before-mid-after tribulation raptures?

I have no idea what Daniel - 9:27 has to do with a Rapture of any kind.

2nd Thess 2:1-8 deals with misinformation from the anti-christs and false-christs and false-prophets that are telling the people that Christ is here or has already come. Paul is telling them not to believe any reports of Christ being here because the Anti-Christ must be revealed before Christ returns.

Again, these verses don't have anything to do with any Rapture.

You posted the p.s.:

p.s. I've noticed nothing has been said about the judgment seat of Christ.

I have said over and over again that Christ doesn't judge the people until just before the second death. Everyone who was born on this earth is Resurrected in the 1st or 2nd Resurrection, then allowed to live again here on earth while satan is released to go out and deceive the nations again. Then Christ judges the people and that is the second death.

p.s. I've noticed nothing has been said about the judgement seat of Christ.

Parker

Before Christ - the dead who trusted in God went to Abraham"s bosom. When Christ died he went there and took the believers with him to Paradise. They remain there untill Christ's return and they will be with him.

People who are saved today and die go straight to Paradise. 2 Cor - 5:8

Mid Tribulation Rapture - Look and study - Daniel - 9:27- 2nd Thess 2:1-8

In order to go to a paradise or heaven, you would have to be judged as a good soul first.

-- Posted by -- Posted by Unique-Lies on Thu, Nov 6, 2008, at 5:54 PM

Unique-Lies,

Just exactly what is a "good soul"?

Happy Birthday - Dr. Billy Graham

Nowhere in that verse did it say they went to heaven. It only states that John sees them in heaven "in his VISION". But it gets better!

Posted by Unique-Lies on Thu, Nov 6, 2008, at 12:47 PM

The alter is in heaven and John sees them in heaven in his vision. Look at your own paragraph above. How else would John see them in heaven if they weren't in heaven.

bellbuckletn,

You asked... Why do these souls get to go directly to heaven but we don't. I haven't read anywhere in the Bible that it says only those who die a martyrs death get to go directly to heaven and the rest of us who are saved through Jesus have to wait.

Your facts are not completely true!

Rev 6:9

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

Nowhere in that verse did it say they went to heaven. It only states that John sees them in heaven "in his VISION". But it gets better!

After John sees the 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes, He also sees another vision of...

Rev. 7:9-15

9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

12 saying: "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"

13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"

14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.

So now we see that another multitude of people (too numerous to count from all over the world) are seen in heaven. These are All the Christians, but notice they aren't suppose to be in heaven until after the great tribulation.

These are you and all the Christians you are asking about. So you see the bible does include all the Christians. It does put each group in a separate section thou.

For example the first group of people are the saints who are martyred (Rev 6:9). The second group is the 144,000 Jews (Rev 7:1-8). The third group is the multitude too numerous to count (Rev 7:9-15) containing All the Christians.

I have never read anywhere in the bible that it says these saints went to heaven. It only says John sees them in heaven in his vision. John also sees the 144,000 Jews but doesn't see them go to heaven. John also see the Multitude too numerous to count, standing before the throne, in heaven, but John never saw them go into heaven.

We have to look somewhere else to find the answers.

Let's take the first group, the saints who were Martyred. The bible tells us what happens to these people and where they go.

Revelation 20:4-5 (New International Version)

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

They came to life and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years. Not forever, but for 1,000 years. They are the only ones in the 1st Resurrection. (I will change this in a minute)

In Rev 20:6

6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

The bible goes on to tell us that they will be Priests of God and of Christ and the second death has no power over them.

So we can now see where these Martyred Saints really go. They don't go to heaven, but they go in the 1st Resurrection. When their bodies die, their souls sleep until they become the first group to be Resurrected. They are Resurrected from the grave not from heaven.

What kind of God would take them up into heaven to live with Him then cast them back down to earth like He did to Satan to be priests after everyone is Resurrected.

The second group is the 144,000 Jews that John sees in heaven.(Rev 7:1-8)

To see what happens to them we have to go else where in the bible. We will find that information in Rev 14:1-5

1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps.

3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

The bible tells us that they are redeemed from the earth. That means taken from the earth. They were male virgins, They go wherever the Lamb goes, they were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb, and finally, no lie was found in their mouths. They are blameless.

This is the first group who are redeemed from the earth and they also become firstfruits to God and the Lamb. And they go everywhere the Lamb goes. So these 144,000 Jews will also be in the 1st Resurrection because the Lamb is there also.

This is what the bible says not just me.

But wait now, we still have the Multitude too numerous to count, or all of the Christians in the world. What happens to them and where do they go?

The bible tells us that the rest of the dead are Resurrected after the 1,000 years. So, all the Christians and all the sinners are Resurrected at the same time as satan is released, after the 1,000 years of the Saints reigning with Christ.

Did they go to heaven to wait to be Resurrected? Of course not. When they die their bodies rot just like everyone else and their soul sleeps until it is Resurrected after the 1,000 years.

There is nothing to be ashamed of! That is the way God planned it and wrote about it to explain to us how it will all take place.

My belief is built on a solid foundation and I know what I know. I don't let man's teachings change the way I believe. I believe according to what the scriptures teach. If man has destroyed the scriptures then how can I be blamed. We all know man changes the words in the bible every time they translate it so why would anyone want to believe man's word over God's?

Those convinced against their will be of the same opinion still. I don't think anyone is going to change Unique-Lies mind on this subject.

-- Posted by bellbuckletn on Thu, Nov 6, 2008, at 10:43 AM

You are right. Unique is convinced he has some new secret information that has only been revealed to him.

So do many of the cult organizers. That is usually one of their most defined characteristics. They have had a new Revelation from God. Most of them have very Biblical based teachings in general that have been "tuned" up for a crowd looking for change.

jesse sellers

When the bible tells us that when we die we sleep and we know nothing nor do nothing, we have to lock that in our mind as we read the rest of the scriptures. That is what lets you understand other scriptures.

If people don't sleep when they die and are aware of everything going on in and on the world they would be arguing with those in hell just like the rich man was doing and one thing would lead to another and they would not have any peace at all. Also they would be up on top of the ground haunting their friends and family just like you Christians believe they do. Your loved ones would be in your homes watching everything you do and not give you any privacy at all. Watching over you and interfering with your life just like they did when they were alive.

What a creepy feeling that is!

Just like the souls under the altar. How can they be in heaven under God's feet, whining and crying and nagging why God doesn't do something about all the people who martyred them when they are suppose to be worshiping God and being in a state of heavenly bliss. God wouldn't put up with that kind of whining while the beasts and the elders and the angels are praising Him and singing songs to and about Him.

Now if these people are dead and know nothing and their souls are (sleeping), then there could be peace in death. This would also mean that the sinners would not be tormented in hell nor the christians having some kind of halaluyah party in their graves everyday and night. No ones soul would rise up out of the grave at night and come a knocking on your door to bring you messages beyond the grave.

Jesus used the name Lazarus because he had a close friend named Lazarus which he brought back to life. Jesus used the name Abraham because Abraham was one of the holiest men on earth and was the father of the Jews.

However, you see that Jesus only named Hell but not the place he referred to as Abraham's bosom. Jesus is telling this story on a "need to know" basis. He doesn't reveal everything about death and after life in one parable. You have to collect the information from different places in the bible, then put it together yourself to understand the truth.

Matthew 13:10-17

10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

13This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

15For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

May God have mercy on my soul.

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Nov 5, 2008, at 11:45 PM

He will if you have saving faith in the full sufficiency of His Son.

I agree with Michael on what happens to us when we die. I study oliver Greene and I also study a few sites on line and they all say what Michael wrote.

It's all written in the bible for all to read. Some of the saints were raised up from their graves on the day Christ was killed. Their bodies had long since decayed but their souls were raised from sleep and their bodies reformed on their souls just like Lazarus's body did. Our soul is resurrected and our old bodies reform on our souls and we reappear as we were when we died. We remember our days on earth and who we were and our lived ones. We just don't know anything while we are in our graves in a trance (deep sleep).

No one goes to heaven until after the second death because that is when we are judged and sent to heaven or the lake of Fire. It is at this time that we need a heavenly body, so it is at this time that many will be changed in the twinkle of an eye into heavenly bodies. Sinner won't need a heavenly body because they are thrown into the lake of Fire and burned up. Others will need an earthly body because they will inherit the earth.

I said that the bible says any sin you willful commit after receiving any gift from God is no longer forgivable.

All the Christians say you can continue to sin all you want to as long as you ask for forgiveness on or before the day you die. That sounds like a world of sinning people to me.

I believe many will be surprised when Christ returns. Surprised may be the wrong word. I think scared would be a better word.

Soul sleep is a minority belief that the soul sleeps unconsciously between the death of the body and its resurrection on Judgment Day. The concept of "soul sleep" is not a biblical doctrine. When the Bible says a person is "sleeping" in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be sleeping. The Bible tells us that the instant we die, we are taken to heaven or hell based on whether we have placed our faith in Christ for salvation. For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-23). The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). Until the resurrection, though, there is currently a temporary heaven, "Paradise" (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4), and hell, "Hades" (Revelation 1:18; 20:13-14).

In a sense, a person's body is "sleeping" while his soul is in the temporary Paradise or Hades. This body is then "awakened" and transformed into the eternal body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in Paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people--based entirely on whether or not they have trusted Jesus Christ alone for salvation from their sins.

This came from a book I have by Perry Stone , I just touched on the highlights of the whole chapter, It is done from a Hebraic point of view which most people forget about.

I know what I believe and you know what you believe, neither has any bearing on our salvation, so chill out.

The book of Matthew states that the dead rose and walked around on the day Christ died Matt 27v51-54.

Maybe our bodies are raised back again and rejoined with our souls and changed to our heavenly body in the twinkling of an eye who knows?

You say that one sin after salvation will lead you to Hell, then why should we worry about it? because we all have done it.

Michaelbell,

We are born with a "soul". What Spirit are we born with? The only Spirit I am aware of is the Holy Spirit which is given to us by God and Is God. When we die, of course, the holy Spirit returns to God because it is God.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7; 13-14

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

8 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Everything is meaningless!"

The conclusion is:

13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

This is talking about a person who dies and returns to dust, but the spirit returns to God who gave it. Again this is the Holy Spirit we are baptized with.

Psalm 139:7-8 is speaking about (thy) God's Spirit not a man's Soul, so therefore it has no bearing on this issue because it is the Spirit of God.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

In 1 Samuel it is speaking about God being able to change anyone to just the opposite person. He can take life away and raise them up. Jesus did just that several times.

1 Samuel 2:1-6

1 And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the LORD, mine horn is exalted in the LORD: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy salvation.

2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

3 Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.

4 The bows of the mighty men are broken, and they that stumbled are girded with strength.

5 They that were full have hired out themselves for bread; and they that were hungry ceased: so that the barren hath born seven; and she that hath many children is waxed feeble.

6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

In Luke 16:26 I tried to fill in the blanks. Luke isn't specific enough to know everything. For example what is the name of the place across from the Gulf from Hell? There is no hint to an answer. I thought at first is was called Hades BECAUSE the word Hades was never used in the old testament only the new testament when good people needed a place to go instead of hell.

Different translations say hades is thrown into the lake of fire with death and another translation say Hell and death, so they may be the same hell.

I would really think that Hades would be the perfect name for the good people and Hell for the bad. That would put a name on the place across the gulf from hell. Many scriptures say that we lay in our graves until resurrected so I have to say the place is our graves.(Sheol) Also this is a parable spoken by Jesus so do these places exist as he describes them or was he only implying that the son of God died and was raised up to tell the world about Hell and eternal life??

Luke 16:26

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 (New International Version) When all men and beast die, they go back to dust from where they came. They didn't come from heaven so they don't go to heaven. The bible plainly says we return to dust from where we came. That is our bodies! Our souls sleep until Resurrected! The Holy Spirit we were given by God, If we still have it, Returns to God because it is the Holy Ghost and part of the trinity.

19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.

20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

90 years after Jesus died, John tells us about Jesus telling Nicodemus that no one has gone to heaven except he that came down from heaven. That means no one from the old testament either.

John 3:13

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

In Acts 2:29-35 Luke tells us that King David did not go to heaven when he died but the grave where his flesh saw corruption.

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Moses in 1400 B.C. while writing the book of Job tells us that a man dies and doesn't get resurrected until the heavens be no more. That is what happens when Christ returns to Resurrect the dead and judge them.

Job 14:12

12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

-> The dead in Christ will rise first, their spirits that is, then the ones who are alive will be caught up, that is what my bible says.

-- Posted by michaelbell on Wed, Nov 5, 2008, at 4:12 PM

First we have to agree that when these people died, the Spirit left them and returned to God, so there is no Spirit in them now to raise up. So what is raised up when Christ returns? The only thing they have are their souls because their bodies have gone back to dust and their spirit returned to God. Their souls sleep. Not like we sleep at night but like a dead in Christ sleep.

Ecclesiastes12:6-7

My next blog will give my answer, but to give a short version, your body dies , your spirit goes to whence it came, back to the father.

Read Psalms 139:7-8

1Sam2:6

I cannot and will not believe that those that died thousands of years ago are still in the grave.

Maybe we all go to the gulf that is talks of in Luke 16:26

the good on one side and the bad on the other.

The dead in Christ will rise first, their spirits that is, then the ones who are alive will be caught up, that is what my bible says.

Michael, what do you think, when we die do we just sleep as in literaly asleep or do we go straight to heaven?

Jesus did go to hell when he died for our sins to tell those in hell what he done for everyone and gave them all a chance to be forgiven and go to heaven in the future. (After the second death).

Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Nov 5, 2008, at 11:41 AM

Unique-Lies,

Use you head for something besides a hat rack.

Was Jesus talking to someone who was sleeping and knows nothing when he descended to hell? I guess you will conjure up that he woke up them up for a minute to talk to them and then let them go back to sleep.

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You and that craaackpipe got your own thiiiing goiiiing...

You and that craaaackpipe got it all worked out.

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Straighten up unique and start making some sense.

jesse sellers,

Luke 16:19-31

First of all Jesus is telling a parable. A parable is a hypothetical situation.

Jesus is explaining hell to the people in terms that they would understood. He is telling the people that the good don't go to the same place as those in Hell and no one is allowed to go from one place to the other. He is also telling them that the whole story is in the last verse, but no one sees that.

Luke 16:31

31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

You see Jesse, Jesus was talking about himself rising from the dead and the people living, still won't listen to his word.

Actually, none of this happens because it is just a hypothetical story, yet Jesus will be crucified and raised to tell the living to repent, but the world won't listen.

Jesus also reveals other important facts with this parable but I have explained what you are interested in.

The bible says we sleep and know nothing and do nothing, so this did not happen but was used as a parable to explain his rising from the dead.

Jesus did go to hell when he died for our sins to tell those in hell what he done for everyone and gave them all a chance to be forgiven and go to heaven in the future. (After the second death).

Luke 23:43

43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

When we die we sleep and know nothing and do nothing. That would be a paradise from this world of temptation. We go into a deep sleep, or suspended animation until we are brought back to life after the heavens roll up like a scroll and disappear and Jesus Resurrects us. A deep sleep is a trance, so we go into a deep sleep or a trance. We know nothing and do nothing. We are not even aware of God while in this deep sleep.

Jesus told him "today you will be with me in paradise".He did not say you will GO to paradise, but be IN paradise.

Paradise is described as being inside the new city of Jerusalem and the new city has not been created yet so neither has paradise. So there is no place called paradise that we go to to sleep. We sleep in the ground.

Rev. 2:7

7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Rev 22:1,2

1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

We see in verses 1 and 2 that the tree of life is in the New City of Jerusalem, That is proof that the paradise of God is in the new City of Jerusalem or The New Heaven, which has not been created yet, So... No one could possibly go to paradise but could only be IN paradise by being in a deep sleep trance.

Revelation 21:1-4

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

So we see that Jesus really didn't lie to anyone but told the truth. He did use a made up parable to help him explain his death and resurrection without letting them understand it. He hid the truth from the nonbelievers.

If we don't know anything but sleep after death, Explain Luke - 16:19-31 - Luke - 23:43 and Rev. -2:7

If our souls sleep, why was the rich man asking for water and why could he remember and ask for help for his kin.

So you say Jesus is lying in these scriptures? We only sleep no knowledge in death?