Mr. Bell, I was reading the Tennessean yesterday and came across something that caught my eye. They had picures of various members of the clergy in that edition. All of them were smiling and happy and proclaiming the love they had for man and God. Would it pain you to put a picture on with a smile instead of such a dour look? If you are wanting to start a new congregation, you might attract more with a cheerful look, rather than one of doom and dispair.

Pastor Michael Bell,

I watched your pastor friend, Perry Stone last night and was surprised at what he was teaching his visiting congregation.

He was teaching on the rapture again and said that the other preachers and theologians all believe that when the bible says two will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left...it means the bad will be taken away and the good people will be left all alone on the earth.

He was confessing that most of the churches now believe that the bad will be taken away (like the Romans took the Jews away) and the good people will be left alive here on earth.

Actually he is correct when he states this, but he doesn't believe it happens this way, only all the other churches and theologians. This is what I teach, and now all of a sudden all the churches believe as I do?? I don't think so! No one in Bedford county believes this. They all believe they will be raptured up before all the tribulations begin. The bible says Christ doesn't return until after the trials and tribulations, and this "rapture" doesn't happen until Christ returns.

Pastor Perry Stone said that Jesus is going to sneak down here and rapture up the churches before the second coming. What!!! Wouldn't that be the second coming and when Jesus returned again it would be the third return which is not spoken of in the bible. Sounds like a false teaching to me.

Everyone should stop and think for themselves for a minute:

If Jesus sneaks down here and raptures up "ALL the Good Christians" (the Churches), then everyone left on earth are the evil sinners and non believers, Right?

1. Why would God resurrect all the sinners and judge them if they are already in Hell, when there are no good people left on earth or in the graves?

2. If all the good people are raptured up in the clouds then why does the bible tell us that when Christ returns he sends his angels to cast the evil people in the fire and leave all the good people alive to reign with Christ for a thousand years?

3. The people in the first resurrection are all very righteous people who have been killed for their faith in Jesus and God. How can they be in the first resurrection if they were "raptured" up?

4. Those who are "raptured up" go with Jesus forever. How can any of them come back and be resurrected and reign with Christ for only one thousand years?

5. All the people who are resurrected will live again here on earth, because they are tempted by satan again after they are resurrected. This would mean that only the evil people could be resurrected and live again on earth because all the good people have been raptured up.

6. If all the good people are raptured up, Why would we need the trials and tribulations? Only the evil people would be left on earth so the beast wouldn't have any trouble out of the evil people who don't believe in God.

7. If all the good people are raptured up, why does the bible say that only the righteous will be left alive on earth?

8. If all the righteous people have already been raptured up, where do all these people come from that Jesus raises up at judgment day, then sends them to heaven or the lake of fire?

9. If all the righteous people are raptured up, who are these 144,000 Jews who are redeemed from the earth and return with Christ when he returns (before the rapture begins)?

10. If all the righteous are raptured up, who is Jesus going to judge in the end?

We are not judged when we die, nor when we are resurrected. The bible says we have to live again on earth after we are resurrected and give satan another chance to deceive the nations once again, then He will destroy the evil with fire from heaven then all the dead will be raised and judged.

It is at this time (after we are judged) that everyone will be changed instantly, in the twinkle of an eye, and transformed into an earthly or heavenly body.

In summary; Pastor Perry Stone stated that all the other churches and theologians are teaching the things I do about the rapture. If that was true, everyone would believe what I teach.

He also teaches that everyone will be raptured up before the second coming of Christ. Mmm, that would be the second coming of Christ and when Christ returns again to judge the world, that would be the third return which the bible doesn't teach.

When Jesus returns again, He is staying until the end. Jesus will be here to reign with those in the first resurrection for one thousand years. He will be here as the second resurrection takes place and satan is released from the pit. Jesus is still here while satan deceives the nations again because he will gather all his followers to surround the camp of God's people and Jesus sends fire down from heaven and destroys them.

The graves and death and hell give up the dead and Jesus judges them.

When Christ returns again, he is here for the duration. There won't be a sneak coming and going. When he returns he is staying. He isn't coming and picking up the righteous then taking them away somewhere. Jesus is staying here so if you are raptured up, you will be right here on earth.

The 144,000 Jews are the only ones who are redeemed from the earth and return with Christ when he returns. After the Lord judges everyone, we will all take on a different body instantly, in the twinkle of an eye, and go where ever it is we will be going.

This is what is misinterpreted as the rapture.

michaelbell,

Hopefully the day of Christ return is soon.

Whether it is tommorrow or 217 years from now I do know we are one Christmas closer to it then when we awaited Christmas last year this time.

I only hope that everyone can find "COMFORT" in knowing of his return and keeping us protected from the "WRATH" to come. The same kind of "COMFORT" Paul was talking about in his letter to the Thessalonians.

---------------------

1 Thessolonians 1

10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the "WRATH" to come.

---------------------

1 Thessalonians 4

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore "COMFORT" one another with these words

---------------------

1 Thessalonians 5

9For God hath not appointed us to "WRATH", but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11Wherefore "COMFORT" yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

---------------------

I find the "COMFORT" mentioned twice in Pauls' words telling us that we are not appointed to the "WRATH" and knowing it is Christ himself that spares us from the "WRATH" to come. I look forward in anticipation for the return of Christ to deliver us Christians from the "WRATH" to come. I hope this Christmas that many more come to the understanding of the grace and mercy that is readily available for the taking and recognize He is the only thing that can and will deliver you from the "WRATH" to come.

There is indeed a "WRATH" coming and there is indeed a "Saviour who can save" you from this foretold "WRATH".

When you know the truth it will set you free and open the door to more knowledge.

Posted by Unique-Lies on Tue, Dec 23, 2008, at 12:40 PM

Unique-Lies,

When you accept the real truth it will indeed set you free. No more dreadful nights of terror, just sweet beautiful peaceful rest in the arms of Christ. There is a difference between knowing and accepting.

Accept the real truth and set yourself free from the terror that plagues you.

And your favorite (verse 18) They are comforting words for anyone who is to be in this rapture, but not everyone is raptured up. The bible doesn't say everyone or all the dead who sleep in Christ nor everyone or all of us who remain alive!

Posted by Unique-Lies on Tue, Dec 23, 2008, at 12:40 PM

Unique-Lies,

I think it is easy to see that Paul meant all the dead in Christ when he said the dead in Christ and I also think it is easy to see that he meant all the Christians who were alive when he said we who remain and are alive.

If he was talking about some kind of partial or incomplete rapture I think he would have addressed it as such. Let's just let his words alone and forget about any tuning.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Ask any preacher or pastor any question you don't know and they will answer it with every answer but the answer that applies. Just like a politician!

When they lie there is no acceptable answer they can give that means anything and usually just creates more questions.

Just as parkerbrothers' lie creates several other questions that he can not answer with biblical scriptures.

IF THAT HAPPENs... The Book of Revelation is a lie and so is Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I believe what the bible tells us and it doesn't say all the Christians will be raptured up when Christ returns.

Posted by Unique-Lies on Tue, Dec 23, 2008, at 4:54 PM

Unique-Lies,

When Paul says the dead in Christ, I think he means the dead in Christ. Not the ones born in even numbered years only. I think he meant the ones born in odd numbered years also. Or what system of choosing have you devised to be used?

Unique, he said the dead in Christ. What part of that gives you trouble. Is it the fact you can not make it line up with your 144,000 figure that you want?

Quit trying to tune up Paul. He does not need it. Just listen to him. He does a very good job all on his own conveying the message.

So parkerbros, are you going to forgo the millions you've made in the housing industry to go into evangelism and compete with Mr Bell?

Chef Boy R.D.,

You know so little about so much.

parkerbrothers,

-> No doubt these first century Christians that Paul was addressing probably thought the resurrections that occurred after the resurrection of Christ were the first resurrection which are mentioned in Mathew.

-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Wed, Dec 24, 2008, at 7:55 AM

Now look who is doing the tuning of Pauls letters!

Paul would address this issue with these 1st century pupils if there was any questions about it. It isn't written in the bible so no one questioned his teachings on it. If I was there i am sure I would have brought it up, lol. Very Good Point though.

-> Perhaps these saints mentioned above are the ones that John mentions seeing in Revelation? Perhaps these saints are also the ones that come back with Jesus at his soon coming that is mentioned in Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians?

-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Wed, Dec 24, 2008, at 7:55 AM

See how easy that was? John said he saw the saints who were beheaded for Jesus and God. That would be only those persecutes and executed and not your average born again Christian. However, if you go back and read it these saints are crying out to God asking how much longer before He revenges their death. God tells them to wait until the rest of the saints have been killed also.

According to you they have died and been risen to heaven. You believe all Christians go to heaven when they die, when the bible tells us that we sleep in our graves until the heavens are no more, then we are resurrected.

Let's just say that they are in heaven. Since they are in heaven with God they would not be coming back to earth.

The saints coming with Jesus are the saints raptured up in the air to meet him as he returns. The saints who have died are sleeping in the grave.

If what you teach, (The rapture of all Christians worldwide in one rapture), then all these saints are raptured up when Christ returns.

Therefore these saints can not be in the first resurrection nor in Heaven because they are all raptured up when Christ returns.

Then again, by using your teaching (The rapture of all Christians worldwide in one rapture) is false because you have confessed that these dead saints have already gone to heaven because John saw them in heaven. Even all the other born again Christians have died and gone to heaven according to your beliefs. So that doesn't leave anyone to be in the first and second resurrections.

Let's just let the resurrections occur as God sees fit. After all, they will occur on his time table.

More importantly, let everyone put their faith in Christ and focus on what we can do with today while we have it. It will be gone tomorrow.

-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Wed, Dec 24, 2008, at 7:55 AM

-> In order for the resurrection to occur as God sees fit, you must stop teaching your false teachings of the rapture that takes all the people up in the clouds and makes them not available to be resurrected up. It can't happen both ways, so we have to believe it happens the way the bible teaches.

Today will come and go just like every day does. It is important to teach the truth and not fill the minds of people with false teachings of a worldwide rapture that can not take place as people teach it. It is contrary to and inconsistent to the bible making it a false teaching.

The more false teachings you teach to confuse the Christians will only make it more impossible for them to make proper decisions when the false prophet and the anti-christ come. As it is now, people are going to run to the anti-christ because you are teaching them that Christ is coming to take them away before the tribulations. Jesus does not come until after the tribulations. Go figure!

2 Timothy 3:16,17 [ All Scripture is for Proving and Reproof ]

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The more false teachings you teach to confuse the Christians will only make it more impossible for them to make proper decisions when the false prophet and the anti-christ come. As it is now, people are going to run to the anti-christ because you are teaching them that Christ is coming to take them away before the tribulations.

Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Dec 24, 2008, at 11:52 AM

Unique-Lies,

Wrong. Listen to Jesus.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Christians will know Him. He will know them. We will follow Him. We are secure with Him.

2 All the readers of this Blog,

See what I mean when I tell everyone that a false teacher will give all kinds of useless answers, but will avoid the one question you ask.

I know I am not going to jail. Hope you pack light.

-- Posted by Chef Boy R.D. on Wed, Dec 24, 2008, at 2:39 PM

Again you know so much about nothing. Maybe age will help you?

Why do you teach that all the Christians worldwide will be raptured up all at once when Christ returns, and yet you still teach that when Christians die they instantly go to heaven? The bible tells us that the Christians are Resurrected in the 1st and 2nd Resurrections

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Dec 24, 2008, at 2:47 PM

Unique-Lies,

I believe at death the soul is seperated from the tent of flesh it resides in. The physical flesh is buried and I do believe the soul of a Christian goes to heaven. When Christ returns in the air with these saints I believe it will be exactly as Paul told the Thessalonians and the Corinthians. I believe the new bodies of the saints will be resurrected from their graves and meet Jesus in the air followed by all Christians who are alive and all of us will be changed in the twinkling of an eye into new immortal bodies.

I believe there will be 144,000 spiritually virgin Jews sealed and left here who will preach the Word of God during the trials and tribulations and I believe there will be a multitude of people who respond to their preaching and come out of the trials and tribulations saved and clothed in white. I believe these are the ones John seen in his vision waving the palm branches.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The above verses tell much about the differences in the natural earthly bodies that are buried and the new spiritual heavenly bodies that are raised. They are a detailed explanation of the resurrection and the change that occurs. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God but the raised and transformed spiritual body united with the soul can.

AMEN!!

Until He brings me home - risen, raptured, whatever - I will TELL!

Posted by bkpow on Wed, Dec 24, 2008, at 11:04 PM

bkpow,

That actually says everything that needs to be said.

However, whenever, whatever.....it's still just good news that needs to be told.

mms://media.winworld.com/voe/mannafest424.wmv

I hope this clip works, if not go to www.voe.org.

mms://media.winworld.com/voe/mannafest424.wmv

I hope this clip works, if not go to www.voe.org.

-- Posted by michaelbell on Thu, Dec 25, 2008, at 9:21 AM

michaelbell,

Thanks for the link. I just finished watching the Perry Stone clip and it was good.

My understanding of the scriptures he covered agree with his message. I have always understood the one taken was the believer and the one left behind was the nonbeliever. I actually never thought it could be interpreted any other way.

Again, thanks for the confirming link.

Chef Boy R.D.,

God hid the truth from the world and reveals it to the Christians through the Holy Spirit. LQQKs like God really hid it from some people. The rapture goes against the bible so many ways that parkerbrothers won't even try to answer any of the questions I have asked him that would prove his rapture exists.

There is no difference of opinion about who will be saved and who won't. Born again Christians have already been saved, sinners and nonbelievers haven't.

The difference is the rapture. If all the good people are raptured up, there can be no Christians on earth to Resurrect and because Christ was resurrected we all must be resurrected, so Christians are NOT Raptured up. This is a fairy tale. Only the 144,000 are caught up in the clouds, not all the Christians.

-> What of all the people who have never heard of Christ? Where do they go?

The bible says when we die our body goes back to dust and our soul sleeps until it is resurrected.

Everyday Christians, Nonbelievers, sinners in Hell

and "people who have never heard of God and Jesus" will be Resurrected after the thousand years, This means they will be in the 2nd Resurrection and raised at the same time satan is released from the bottomless pit.

They too will get the chance to live again on earth while satan deceives the nations again. AT this time an angel will be flying around preaching the gospel to all. They may then choose Jesus and be saved or choose to not believe and follow satan to their firey deaths.

This is the whole purpose of the Resurrections... to give everyone one more last chance to accept Christ.

Althou I don't believe in the lost books of the bible, I think the apocalyptic writing by Peter about hell speaks of people getting out of hell. This is what happens indeed, when we are Resurrected. A free get out of Hell card, if you will.

parkerbrothers,

The verses you mention above (Matthew 13:41-43) are part of the parables Jesus spoke by the sea. You are adding quite a bit into this and trying to make it speak of the rapture.

-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Thu, Dec 25, 2008, at 9:54 AM

NO!!! JUST THE OPPOSITE!!

Shows how you can not read the truth!!

Jesus explains the parable to his disciples because like you, they don't get it!

Jesus explains it very well here so I won't.

Matthew 13:36-43

36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

I have said nothing about the evil people being in the rapture. Just the opposite. They are thrown in the fiery furnace. Taken away yes but not in any rapture.

What I did say... was this could not happen as told in the bible, if all the Christians were raptured up because there would be no righteous left to shine because you raptured them up. The angels the Son of Man sends out would only be throwing everything that causes sin and all evil doers in the furnace but there would be no Christians to shine. The world would be void of all life at that very instant.

-> The verses you mention say nothing about Christ finally getting here with His saints. It merely say He sends forth His angels in the parable.

-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Thu, Dec 25, 2008, at 9:54 AM

What a silly Statement! Jesus was explaining a parable about how it will be in the end of the age. Christ was still there at his first coming, not his 2nd coming. That hasn't happened yet!

However, at the end of the age when Christ returns again, he is returning with his Saints. Even you have said that over and over again. This is why you can't understand what is happening in the bible. If you can't read every word in the scriptures you can't visualize what is going on. You will never read a story that does that in the bible. Everything is spoken of, it just isn't in the same verses.

for example:

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

how many angels does the Son of Man send forth? All of the angels in heaven like you say all the Christians? Or just the angels who came with him? Or are they archangels or guardian angels or did the bible mean cherubim?

The bible is written to make you look for answers else where.

What I assume you are getting at is... Why did Jesus have to come to earth to send his angels to carry out this chore?

Then again why did Jesus have to send his angels when all he has to do is speak the word and it is done!

It is how the Bible is written and if we use our common sense and apply what we already know, it makes much more sense as we read the scriptures.

What does not make sense is how the righteous will shine when all the righteous Christians have already been raptured up?

bkpow,

Until He brings me home - risen, raptured, whatever - I will TELL!

Merry Christmas to All... and to all a good night!

-- Posted by bkpow on Wed, Dec 24, 2008, at 11:04 PM

-> Sorry, I must have missed something!

You said "Until He brings me home...", I have to ask "where did you come from?"

The Bible says we are from the dust and shall return to the dust. So our HOME SWEET HOME, is in the ground here on earth! This means we don't go to heaven when we die. We go to the grave until we are Resurrected after Christ returns.

We then will live again here on earth in our earthly bodies just like Lazarus and Jesus did, even thou Jesus only stayed for another 40 days before he ascended up into the clouds.

After a short while of a new life after death, we will be judged by the Lord and then we will receive our heavenly bodies instantly, in the twinkle of an eye, and be sent to heaven, hell or earth.

The difference is the rapture. If all the good people are raptured up, there can be no Christians on earth to Resurrect and because Christ was resurrected we all must be resurrected, so Christians are NOT Raptured up. This is a fairy tale. Only the 144,000 are caught up in the clouds, not all the Christians.

Posted by Unique-Lies on Thu, Dec 25, 2008, at 1:51 PM

Unique-Lies,

The only fairy tale being told is your misconception of the rapture.

Paul was not referring to these 144,000 when he addressed both the Thessalonians and the Corinthians on their concerns of the resurrection and rapture.

You will never get that fairy tale to be taken by any Christian who has read the Bible on their own. You may induce a stranger to "your" Word with your nonsense and blind side him but you will continue to come up dry with Christians. They just will not fall for it.

Those who have not heard the Word, and lived a good life, should be saved as well.

Posted by Chef Boy R.D. on Thu, Dec 25, 2008, at 2:04 PM

Chef Boy R.D.,

I might want to agree with you but unfortunately neither you nor I set the threshold of entrance. We are merely the pots and He is the potter.

I am sure also that what you and I might call a good life is different than the standards of God.

According to His word we can never live a life in such a manner to be viewed as righteous in His eyes. We can never earn a righteousness of our own that will merit salvation. Only the imputed righteousness of Christ will allow us to stand before God justified in His sight. This imputation is only available by grace through faith. It can not be earned by living right.

Being a sinner don't bar you from heaven.

They, like us are property of the potter to determine. How can a mere piece of clay like us know the mind of the potter with regaurds to all his inventory.

I am just thankful he has prepared a home for me.

Some things I believe he wants left to Him alone. Much like he told Peter when Peter inquired about the future of John's life. Jesus asked him what it was to him how he dealt with John.

You evidently know about Jesus and I think his answer to Peter is sufficient. Just follow Him.

parkerbrothers,

Matthew 13:36-43 You need to read it again. It is speaking of weeding God's kingdom "here on earth" in the end times and has nothing to do with the likening of heaven.

The sower of the good seed is the son of Man. The field is the world, the good seed stands for the Christians. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, (or sinners if you can't understand that), The one who sows the weeds is the devil, The Harvest is the end of age (or the last days), and the harvesters are angels.

You should know that when Christ returns he is going to set up his Kingdom here on earth. Those who are left are the righteous and will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

So if every Christian is Raptured up when Christ returns, who are these righteous Christians.

-> You get things so tangled up trying to make the Bible agree with your supposed newly revealed secrets.

Not a new secret. Even Jesus doesn't know the day when He will return, only the Father. So even Jesus may have thought that He would return soon after He was Resurrected. That is why Jesus Himself prophesied about the end times also.

bkpow,

Parkerbrothers is good at answering for other people but can't answer or won't answer any questions I ask HIM.

If you seek the answers for yourself you amy find the correct answers.

Parkerbrothers, unknowingly answers questions like Jesus did. Giving answers that don't apply to the now, but after we are judged and sent to our everlasting Home. We still have to be Resurrected and live a life after death before we go to our permanent homes.

Chef Boy R.D.

I assume your question is hypothetical. The correct answer to a person in this positions would be to ask God to forgive them, then start reading the bible. Very few people especially in this country can use that as an excuse because of all the issues that have come up in this country. Seek the lord by reading his word and they will receive the grace of God.

Parkerbrothers is good at answering for other people but can't answer or won't answer any questions I ask HIM.

Posted by Unique-Lies on Thu, Dec 25, 2008, at 11:49 PM

Unique-Lies can not see the answer when it is given to him.

You believe in a rapture that will snatch you away just in time to avoid being tempted by satan and the beast. I believe in what the word of God says.

If all the Christians are raptured up, there would be no Resurrection of the dead. That is anti-christ talking. Jesus was Resurrected, so everyone who was ever born on earth must be resurrected just as our Savior was and we will be judged but not until years later.

I watched God vs Satan on the History Channel last night. It was very interesting to see that the theologians have finally started reading the scriptures and putting them together. They left out a few things but are getting close to understanding the Bible as I do. Of course, a lot of it was they were just reading verses and not really acknowledging the events. They did agree with you in saying that many people believe they will be raptured up out of the trials and tribulations. They didn't try to voice an opinion about it, because they don't want to upset anyone.

Of all the Prophets in the Bible, Jesus was the greatest. He not only fulfilled prophecies but prophesied about the doomsday events when He would return.

People today don't want to hear any of the doomsday events that are coming because they sound gross and gory and even scary and they think they will be raptured out of them. Jesus preached the Doomsday sermons also. Doomsday is part of the bible that is suppose to be taught. And today is the time it should be taught. Daniel was told to seal up his secrets until the end times. The book of Revelation was written for the end times. The beginning of the end time are here. Knowledge is everywhere today and people are beginning to understand the Revelations of Jesus Christ. Some aren't. They just don't get it.

However, the The trials and tribulations of the Beast are just about over before Jesus even returns, so you who are waiting to be raptured up, look out. The beast will snatch you up long before you even know what is happening.

Jesus doesn't return until the Beast has just about converted the whole world into believing he is God. The beast stands up and confesses he is God, then Christ returns an angry God. He brings Tribulations and plagues with him that he uses against the people who worship the beast or his image. He causes boils and sores on the people who accept his mark. He slays the armies of the Kings of the Earth and feeds their bodies to the fowls of the earth. He causes the Kings of the Earth to destroy the great city of Babylon and slays the wicked with the sword that protrudes from His mouth.

What a story it is and all you can say is you won't be here to see it and feel it.

Everyone who is in the rapture, will be in the trials and tribulations BEFORE they get raptured up, then they return with Christ because they go everywhere Christ goes. They will be the ones who fight the armies of the Kings of the Earth and kill them. These armies will be men, women and children. Those in the rapture will have to defeat and kill men, women and children. That is why God chose 144,000 male virgin Jews. But it doesn't stop there.

Those who are in the Rapture must also help Christ slay the evil doers and create a blood bath as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia (or about 180 miles).

Not a pretty picture for you who have just been raptured up. Men, women, children, babies, even pregnant women must be slain by these people God choose to be in the Rapture. That's not for me, you can have it.

The first thing you will say is "Christ sends his angels to do this slaughter". Those who are raptured up become his angels because they will have angelic bodies making them new angels not people.

I do not doubt anything I say. Too many theologians unknowingly agree with what I know. I was just curious as to what normal Christians thought. I only got parkerbrothers' opinions and many are just lies and useless. Most Christians let a spokesperson communicate for them. That won't work when you come face to face with Christ. It will be 1 on 1.

You have heard the song"50 Ways to leave your lover"

Here is 50 ways and reasons I believe in the pre -trib rapture.There is but one way to meet the master, here is 50 truths to see that we will be saved from the Great Tribulation which is soon approaching

.1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return. While it can be debated which church father said what, there is a consistency in the early church on imminency which is essential to the pre-trib position and in opposition to some other positions.

2. The Pre-trib position is the ONLY one which truly teaches imminency.

3. The fact that there is a greater development of the doctrine in recent centuries does not preclude it from the early centuries. In the very early years of the church you see the development of great fundamentals doctrines of Trinity, Deity, God-man, canon of Scripture, etc. Following those early church councils is a time of decline in the corporate church into great apostasy. The teaching of that time are built on many of the heresies of Augustine. When the Reformation comes, there is a period of reestablishing the foundational doctrines of salvation. Now, in these last days there is both and ability and a need in the church to better understand the doctrines of eschatology and the Spirit is continuing His ministry of guiding the church in all truth.

4. The exhortation to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1Thes 4:18) is valid only in the context of the pre-trib view. It could even be a fearsome thing in a post-trib view.

5. We are exhorted to look for the "Glorious Appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:13) If there are any prophetic events (ie: tribulation) to come first, then this passage is nonsensical.

6. Again, we are to "purify ourselves" in view of his coming.(1 John 3:2-3) If his coming is not imminent then the passage is meaningless.

7. The church told *only* to look for the Coming of Christ. It is Israel and the tribulation saints that are told to look for signs.

Nature of the Church

(Those who do not understand the nature of the church as unique in the program of God will continually be confused about the nature of His coming for the church.)

8. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.

9. The church is "not appointed to wrath" (Rom 5:9; 1 Thes 1:9-10) The church cannot enter into the "great day of their wrath."

10. The Church will not be "overtaken by the Day of the Lord." (1 Thes 5:1-9) (Day of the Lord is another term for the great tribulation.)

11. The church will be "kept from the hour of testing that shall come upon all the world." (Rev. 3:10)

12. The believer will escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).

13. It is in the character of God to deliver His own from the greatest times of trial. (Lot, Rahab. Israel, Noah,etc)

14. It is clear that there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)

15. Only the pre-trib position does not divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as does partial rapture does so clearly and others to a lesser extent. It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.

16. The Scriptures are adamant that the church is undivided. In this age the church is divided by the continuing old nature in the believers. When we are glorified at the coming of Christ, the church is no more divided.

17. The godly remnant of the tribulation has the attributes seen in OT Israel and not the church. The church is not present in the prophecies of Revelation.

18. The pre-trib view, unlike the post-trib view does not confuse terms like elect and saints which apply to believers of all ages, as opposed to terms like church and in Christ, which apply only to those who are the body of Christ in this age.

The Work of the Holy Spirit

19. The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of evil in the world. He cannot be taken out as prophesied unless the church which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is taken out.

20. The Holy Spirit will be taken out before the "lawless one" is revealed. That lawless one will certainly be revealed in the tribulation. In fact, the tribulation begins with the signing of the covenant between that lawless one and Israel. That act will reveal him.

21. The "falling away" in 2 Thes 2:3 would better be understood in its context as "the departure." This is a reference to the departure of the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church.

22. The work of the Holy Spirit making the church like Christ where they submit to death and persecution, whereas the OT saints (see many of the Psalms) and the tribulations saints cry out for vengeance (Rev 6:10)

The Hermeneutical Argument

23. Only the pre-trib view allows for a truely literal interpretation in all of the OT & NT passages regarding the great tribulation.

24. Only the pre-trib position clearly distinguishes the church and Israel and God's dealing with each. The Necessity of an Interval of Time between the Rapture and the Second Coming

25. All believers must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10). This event is never mentioned in the account of events surrounding the second coming.

26. The "four and twenty elders" in rev 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church. Therefore it is necessary that the church, undivided, be brought to glory before those events of the tribulation.

27. There is clearly a coming of Christ for his bride before the second coming to earth. Rev 19:7-10.

28. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary activities. These specifically include farming, construction, and giving birth. (Is 65:20-25).

29. The Judgment of the Gentile nations following the second coming (Mat 25:31-46) indicates that both the saved and the lost are in a natural body which would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the second coming.

30. If the translation took place at the same time as the second coming, there would be no need to separating the sheep from the goats at the subsequent judgment. The act of the translation would be the separation.

31. The Judgment of Israel (Ez 20:34-38) occurs after the second coming and requires a regathered Israel. Again, the separation of the saved and the lost would be unnecessary if all the saved had previously been separated by a translation at the second coming.

Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

32. At the Rapture, the church meets Christ in the air. At the second coming, Christ returns to the Mt of Olives.

33. At the time of the Rapture, the Mt of Olives is unchanged. At the second coming it is divided forming a valley east of Jerusalem.

34. At the time of the rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.

35. At the time of the rapture, the world is not judge for sin, but descends deeper into sin. At the second coming, the world is Judged by the King of kings.

36. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance from the day of wrath, whereas the coming of Christ is a deliverance for those who have suffered under severe tribulation.

37. The rapture is immanent whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.

38. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the NT. The second coming with the events surrounding it is prominent in both OT and NT.

39. The rapture is only for the saved, while the tribulation and second coming deals with the entire world.

40. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the rapture. Many signs must be fulfilled before the second coming of Christ.

41. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.

The Nature of the Tribulation

42. Only the pre-trib view maintains the distinction between the "great tribulation" and the tribulations in general which we all experience.

43. The great tribulation is properly understood in the pre-trib view as a preparation for the restoration of Israel. (Deut 4:29-30. Jer 30:4-11, Dan 9:24-27, Dan 12:1-2)

44. Not one single passage in the OT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

45. Not one single passage in the NT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

46. In contrast to mid trib or pre-wrath views, the pre-trib view offers an adequate explanation for the beginning of the great tribulation in Rev 6. These others are clearly refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the great tribulation begins long before the 7th trumpet of Rev 11.

47. There is no proper groundwork provided that the 7th trumpet of Rev is the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15. It is accepted only on the basis of assumption. The pre-trib view maintains the proper distinction between the prophetic trumpets of the church and the trumpets of the tribulation.

48. The Unity of Daniel's 70th week is maintained by the pre-trib view. By contrast, the mid-trib view destroys the unity and confuses the program for Israel and the church. The post trib view usually denies the clear teaching of the 70th weeks by subverting it into some form or another of allegory.

49. The gathering of saints after the tribulation is done by angels whereas the gathering of the church is done by "The Lord Himself."

50. Rev 22:17-20 And the Spirit and the Bride say come. And he that heareth, let him say come ... He who testifieth of these things saith

michaelbell,

Great work. Glad to see it put together in such a powerful convincing manner.

Yes, do come for your bride.

in the garden,

Yes every generation preaches the end times. Jesus himself preached the end times because Jesus himself doesn't know what hour He will return, only the Father knows. The 12 disciples preached that the end would come in their day. Paul preached He would be caught up in the air when Christ returned. Paul thought he would be one of the people who would still be alive.

Every generation has preached the end times, but I say since Jesus preached it when he was here on earth, there has to be something to preaching it with the rest of the word of God, so we should continue preaching the end times with the word of God because it IS part of the Word of God.

Every generation has their Dooms Day Preachers and their Scoffers: 2 Peter3:2-4; Acts 13; Jude 1:18-19.

It will continue til the end time comes.

What Is Imminency?

In doing some research on the doctrine of imminency, I noticed few people take the time to actually define what prophetic imminency means. First, let us look at the general definition of the key word "imminent": "The quality or condition of being about to occur."

Imminency, as it relates to Bible prophecy, simply means that the return of Jesus Christ for the Church can happen at any moment. No warning signs will indicate a short-term countdown. We as Christians remain on alert 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

If a wife knows her husband normally gets home from work shortly after 4:00 PM, she knows that beginning at 4:00 PM, his arrival is imminent. If the woman knows her husband has to work overtime, the imminency of his 4:00 PM return is then in doubt.

The only way for the rapture to be truly imminent is to have it transpire before the tribulation. If the Church were required to wait until after the manifestation of certain events, then there would be no doctrine of imminency.

The Granddaddy Of Proofs

The pretribulation rapture is the only view that allows for the rapture to be imminent in its timing. All the other views require a number of prophetic occurrences to take place before the rapture can be declared imminent. To be looking for the imminent return of Christ, you have to believe in a pre-trib rapture.

Jesus repeatedly said that His return for the Church would be a surprise. The Lord even went beyond that by saying He would return "as a thief" when believers generally won't be expecting Him to come for them.

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36).

"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing" (Matthew 24:42-46 KJV).

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 25:13).

"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:7).

Because we have no way to refute the fact that we will not know the timing of our Lord's return, the tribulation is a barrier to the rapture. No wonder the late John Walvoord called imminency "the heart of Pretribulationism."

This type of "any-moment" language doesn't fit a post-trib rapture. If Jesus were prevented from coming until after the battle of Magog, the rise of Antichrist, and the Mark of the Beast, we would have no need to watch for Him before the tribulation.

If the Church were required to go through the seven-year tribulation, you would expect the New Testament writers to have warned us to be prepared for trying times. On the contrary, the New Testament writers repeatedly tell the Church to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1 Thes 4:18). The word "comfort" alone strongly implies the rapture will take place before the tribulation.

Some anti-imminency folks try to solve the problem they have with the rapture's any-moment occurrence by redefining it as merely indicating that Christ will return soon. The speed of Christ's advent is not the issue. If an event is required to take place before the Lord can return, there is no need to remain watchful.

If a person should make it through the tribulation until the point when the mid-trib, pre-wrath, and post-trib folks expect the rapture to occur, it would then become possible for the rapture to be classified as "imminent." However, once you solve the problem of imminency, you create another one regarding the restrictions against knowing the timing of the rapture.

Because the duration of the tribulation is already known, post-tribbers have the hardest time dealing with the rapture's timing. Some of them have tried to suggest that believers who make it through the tribulation will lazily lose track of the nearness of Christ's second coming.

If a Christian has been lucky enough to survive a host of apocalyptic calamities and elude the Antichrist's secret police for at least 3 1/2 years, I cannot imagine that he would be oblivious to the nearness of the Lord's return at the 7-year mark. If I were reduced to the point of having to hide in a forest and forage through dead tree bark to find beetles and grubs to sustain myself, I'm certain my every thought would be focused on the Lord's return.

Maranatha

One the strongest cases one can make for the early Church expecting an imminent return of Christ is to note their use of the word maranatha, which was used as a greeting in those days. When believers gathered or parted, they didn't say "hello" or "goodbye"; they would say "Maranatha!"

I've encountered some writings that say Maranatha is Hebrew and Greek, but it is actually an Aramaic expression. In fact, it is made up of three Aramaic words: Mar, which means "Lord"; ana, which means "our"; and tha, which means "come."

So when you put it together, maranatha means "Our Lord, come." It perfectly conveys the concept that the Lord could come at any moment. Maranatha is used once in the Bible by Paul as part of a curse. In 1 Corinthians 16:22, Paul said, "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema. Maranatha." The word "anathema" means "banned," so Paul was saying, "Let him be banned from our Lord's coming."

The interesting thing about maranatha is that it comes in the form of a petition. When a Christian in the early Church would make this statement, he was actually petitioning the Lord to come. This obviously implies the belief that it was possible for Jesus to answer the appeal.

If members of the first-century Church believed that certain events needed to take place before the Savior could return, they would have been silly to greet each other with "maranatha." They lived nearly 2,000 years ago, and yet they seem to have had a deeper awareness of imminency than many of today's Christians.

The Historical Record

Many of the contemporary writers who attack imminency try to promote the idea that this doctrine was recently dreamed up by men who were ignorant of the true meaning of Scripture.

One detractor states, "This frenzy [imminency] continues to survive today because of modern misconceptions about the purpose of these prophetic events and the time frame for their occurrence."

Post-trib believers are the most vocal in their claim that the concepts of imminency and the pre-trib rapture only date back to the early 1800s. For several years, their charges went unanswered, but recently a number of men have dusted off old manuscripts and found several early Church fathers who were clearly looking for an imminent return of the Lord Jesus.

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins" (Pseudo-Ephraem (374-627 AD).

The First Epistle of Clement, 23 (written around 96 A.D. by Clement, a prominent leader of the church at Rome who knew some of the apostles personally and probably is the Clement referred to in Phil. 4:3): "Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, 'speedily will He come, and will not tarry.'"

As early as 70 - 180 AD, The Didache, chapter 16, section 1, says, "'Be vigilant over your life; let your lamps not be extinguished, or your loins ungirded, but be prepared, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come."

"But what a spectacle is that fast-approaching advent of our Lord, now owned by all, now highly exalted, now a triumphant One!" (Tertullian 155 - 245 AD).

John Calvin, the reformer at Geneva during the 1500s and founder of the Presbyterian Church, made the following statements in some of his commentaries on books of the Bible: "Be prepared to expect Him every day, or rather every moment." "As He has promised that He will return to us, we ought to hold ourselves prepared, at every moment to receive Him." "Today we must be alert to grasp the imminent return of Christ." Commenting on 1 Thessalonians 4, the "Rapture passage," Calvin said that Paul "means by this to arouse the Thessalonians to wait for it, nay more, to hold all believers in suspense, that they may not promise themselves some particular time . . . that believers might be prepared at all times."

The Westminster Confession, written by the Puritans of England during the 1600s, declared that men should "shake off all carnal security and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come."

"I say, somewhat more because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1 Thess 4:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John 14:2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time." (Morgan Edwards 1742-44).

I'm not much of a fan of relying on what scholarly men write about the Bible. I agree with the quotes I just cited, but I don't really need a bunch of dead guys to tell me what is truth. I have over a dozen copies of the Good Book lying around the house, and I have the ability to read and understand each of them for myself.

History has proven that mankind is a dreadful biblical guide. The apostasy that swept over the Church caused a lack of prophecy commentary from about 450 AD until the 1600s. People stopped thinking for themselves. Their interpretation of the Bible became what the institutional church spoon-fed them.

Premillennialism largely disappeared after it was condemned as heretical by the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD. It wasn't until the reform movement of the early seventeenth century that we see a rebound in the number of statements that reflect the pretribulational view.

Scripture Galore

A host of Scriptures indicate the Church should expect an imminent return of their Lord. The opponents of imminency constantly try to pick apart each individual reference, but they should look at the big picture. An overwhelming number of verses in the Bible support imminency.

I've been able to easily locate 22 passages that imply that the coming of Christ remains an imminent event. All you really need is one verse to prove a point, but the weight of evidence should cause even the most hard-core imminency foes to rethink their stance.

I seriously doubt any scholar or layman could find 22 passages of Scripture that clearly indicate the tribulation or the rule of the Antichrist is the next imminent event facing the Church.

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mat 24:36).

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him" (Mat 25:1-6)

"Take ye heed, watch and pray; for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch" (Mark 13:33-37).

"Knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light" (Rom 13:11-12).

"And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly" (Rom 16:20).

"So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor 1:7).

"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ" (Phil 3:20).

"Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand" (Phil 4:5).

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess 1:10).

"Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober" (1 Thess 5:6).

"That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Tim 6:14).

"Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Heb 9:28).

"Let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the Day approaching" (Heb 10:24-25).

"For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry" (Heb 10:37).

"Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door" (James 5:7-9).

"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13).

"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer" (1 Peter 4:7).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life" (Jude 1:21).

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown" (Rev 3:11).

"Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book" (Rev 22:7).

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev 22:20).

-> Sorry, I must have missed something!

You said "Until He brings me home...", I have to ask "where did you come from?"

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Thu, Dec 25, 2008, at 3:28 PM

Unique-Lies,

Before I was born, my heavenly Father knew me... even while I was still in my mother's womb... He created me in the beginning - and I shall return to Him at the end. How or when, I do not know. My part is to have faith.... God's part is already done!

I hope that you too, in all of your knowledge, find faith as a child! Afterall, no matter how much we study and investigate and speculate, our thoughts will never be as high as the Father's and our understanding shall never be able to comprend what God's awesome plan holds... I only pray to have enough "light" for the step I'm on!

A friend once told me.... "keep on doing what you know God told you to do, until He tells you to do something different"! As I grow in my spiritual maturity and understanding, God reveals more to me... perhaps, Unique-Lies, I am not as far along as you believe yourself to be... but, "I know whom I have believeth and am persuaded that He is able to keep me until that day!"

Unique-Lies,

I did not mean to infer you were a Jehova Witness, but rather was trying to get you to understand that you would more likely find an agreement to your "secret" tunings among them.

The only thing that might disappoint you is the fact your "secrets" were their ideas already years ago including the famous soul sleep theory.

Most of your "secrets" appear to be mere tunings of their "word" with a zealous twist.

parkerbrothers,

Jehovah Witnesses don't stay too long at my house. I tend to teach them. Not many believe as I do. They sometimes agree, but I can see they don't believe the way I do.

When the world asks "What happens when they die?" I assume it must be a secret, but in reality it is printed all over the bible. So, it is a secret to only the nonbelievers as Jesus tells us.

When the world asks, "is there life after death?"

I chuckle to myself because I have read the answer to this question. It is in the written word.

The Jehovah Witnesses have never put it all together that I know of. They have all the answers, they just don't add it all up. No one has ever told me what I know. I learned it all from the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Forgive me, I do pick up bits and pieces now and then from others, but they apply with what I already know or I store them away for the future.

The bible tells us that if we have knowledge and we don't share it, this knowledge will be taken away and given to someone who will use it. That is why I post here. Call me a crazy man or whatever, but that is how I am.

I watched God vs Satan on the History Channel and learned a couple things. I even learned a thing or two reading Michael's excellent post above.

I am always open to learning new things that I have over looked or don't fully understand yet or just don't know.

michaelbell,

Your post on "Imminency" was another great compilation. Your view clearly demonstrates pre-tribulation rapture is an almost certainty. No other view will line up and square itself with scripture in any position.

I also want to bring up a good point you made earlier this year of which I feel the same way about. No matter which way we go, (pre, mid, post, or even no rapture) I eagerley await his return. It is all in his hands and fortunately so are we. What a secure hand He has.

Sorry unique, but that is all I can picture of you after some of your testimony.

I wish I didn't picture you that way but I would be lying if I said otherwise.

All,

I have to confess...

I have never been much of a student on the topic concerning "end times". Even though I know it is a VICTORIOUS end for those of us who have become the adopted children of God, I can't help but think of all who will perish forever when the end does come. Friends, cousins, neighbors... Dare I suggest that if we spent as much time sharing the Good News to those who are not believers as we do trying to figure out pre-trib, post-trib, pre-mil, post-mil, etc that more adoptees will be able to celebrate the VICTORY as well! And yes, I know that God's word tells us to study and to beware of false teachers and to test what we are taught, but that is never to take the place of living in the present - each day with no regrets!

Just as Micheal has written above concerning the imminent return of our Lord and Savior.... be prepared at all times! Prepared at every opportunity to tell the Good News!

bkpow,

Your points are wise and indeed well taken.

However, you must realize that the spread of herasies can diminish the comfort that should be given to Christians.

Sometimes an effort to stop the words of misconstrued bad news is actually a propulsion of good news.

The last days have always been an issue of concern to Christians. Paul found himself engaged in the discussion with first century Christians. I think his words of "comfort" should still be used as words of "comfort" today.

michaelbell,

Since you have 50 reasons, I will answer them only by their number, no sense in repeating your answers. Knowing how you are, I'm sure that many of your statements are only internet information and your Jewish literature not found in the KJV Bible.

To read the (50 reasons) Proof Michael posted goto:

-- Posted by michaelbell on Fri, Dec 26, 2008, at 5:46 PM

1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return. All the churches down thru the ages agree to that. Imminency is the state of being imminent and liable to happen soon. Imminent means likely to occur at any moment. Every church teaches that Christ is returning soon and without any warning, only signs. Has nothing to do with pre-trib or other.

2. False! No one knows the hour, only the father. We only know that it will be soon and without warning. Like a thief in the night. Like the days of Noe!

3. The key words here is the corporate church. It continues today. Churches teach what you want to hear for your money.

Now, in these last days there is both and ability and a need in the church to better understand the doctrines of eschatology (A belief or a doctrine concerning the ultimate or final things, such as death, the destiny of humanity, the Second Coming, or the Last Judgment.), the only thing is... the Theologians want to remove the Book of Revelation from the cannon. Hopefully the Spirit continues to guide them into leaving well enough alone.

4. The exhortation to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1 Thess 4:15-17). The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. How does that sound like a sneak return to pick up 50% of the world population, both dead and alive?

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Christ would never appear to only the Christians and not let the rest of the world see him. God glorifies in showing the world that he meant what he said. Jesus warned us not to go outside and look for Jesus when someone tells us to go look and see. Jesus said every eye shall see him when he returns.

In a post-trib view as you put it, don't you think maybe that is why the apostles tell us to fear him.

5. We are exhorted to look for the "Glorious Appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:11-14)

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The grace of God teaches us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Here it say "that he might redeem" us not from the world, but "from all iniquity." Doesn't sound like a Rapture here, but only a second coming or better yet, when we ask him to come in and forgive us and take away our sins.

If there are any prophetic events (ie: tribulation) to come first, then this passage is nonsensical.

When Jesus returns with a shout and the trump of God, he is returning because the evil one has announced to the world that he is God. The great Tribulation has already been applied, Jesus returns after the Tribulation and the rapture then becomes "nonsensical".

6. (1 John 3:1-9) says we are to be purified and live sin free lives so we can glorify Christ. You said you can not live sin free so is this passage meaningless?

7. The bible has passages in several books telling every one who read the word to look for Christ and also to know the signs of his coming. I never read the phrase tribulation saints.

(Unique-Lies's understanding of the church is we are the body of Christ. Each person who is born again makes up a piece of the body of Christ. When we gather in his name also is he. We come together as his body so his spirit will be with us as we worship him. We the people are the body of Christ, we are the church (not some building on some country road), we are the Bride of Christ, the brothers and sisters of Christ, the sons and daughters of God and the king of Kings' sons and daughters)). Christ is coming for the church, and Christ is coming for his bride, and Christ is coming for his people and Christ is coming for his saints.

8. The second coming of Christ isn't about the church. It is Christ judging the world and slaying the evil doers. It is Christ defeating the armies of the kings of the earth and chaining satan up for a thousand years. It is about casting the false prophet and the beast into the lake of fire. It is Christ Resurrecting the Saints who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and their witness for God. (These are the Priests of God and Jesus) It is about these priests and kings reigning with Christ for one thousand years. It is about Resurrecting the rest of the Christians and sinners who weren't Resurrected in the 1st Resurrection and releasing satan from the bottomless pit at the same time. It is about Jesus staying here on earth during all this time and ruling his government set up on this world. It is about Jesus giving the final judgment to everyone who was ever born on this earth, except the 144,000 Jews and those in the first Resurrection.

9. The wrath of God comes from God not the beast nor the anti-christ. After the great tribulation of the beast, Christ returns and brings God's Wrath with him. Christians will be immune from God's Wrath because they are God's children and have already received salvation from God. This salvation does not include being exempt from the great tribulations brought on by the beast and the anti-christ. The "church" will be there during the Wrath of God, but will not be harmed. Just as Daniel in the lion's den or Jonah inside the fish for 3 days.

10. God's children will not see harm during the Wrath of God, but will have salvation during the Wrath of God. This Wrath of God is NOT a Rapture or Tribulation. It is the anger of God. God isn't angry with his righteous children who keep themselves pure by watching patiently and obediently for his return.

11. (Revelation 3:10-13) First of all Jesus was speaking to the church in Philadelphia, not all the churches. Jesus was saying since they kept my command patiently (Lived righteously until Christ returns) Jesus will keep them from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to "TEST" those who live on the earth.

(Rev 6:12-17) For the great day of his wrath is come;

This TEST is the tribulations that God is bringing with the seven trumpets. The seven angels with the seven last plagues--last, because with them God's wrath is completed.

12. The believer MAY escape the tribulation. (IF...) and maybe not if you don't do as the scripture says.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

13. God will deliver those who are righteous according to his word.

14. John 14:3 doesn't say anything about any translation of the church. Jesus is talking to his disciples, telling them that "if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself". This is a time space that is definitely spanding from His last days on earth to the present time so far. This is imminent, but no time limit included.

15. It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.

We are given everlasting eternal Salvation when we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. So then, (Why), do you say you need God to give you Salvation again from the tribulations and God's Wrath?

That is saying Christians don't have enough Salvation (from being Born Again) to save them from the tribulations and God's Wrath. We do, we just have to pray to God for deliverance and to watch for the coming of these times.

16.At the coming of Christ, the church is no more divided. Christ will set up a new kingdom here on earth with those in the first Resurrection being Priests. (Rev 20:4-6)

17. - - -

18. Your pre-trib view includes every Christian in the world dead or alive. The post-trib view tells it like it is. It is more detailed and excludes many Christians.

19. Sounds correct to me.

20. The Holy Spirit protects and guides us in our daily lives. To take the Holy Spirit from the Christians in the time of need when we would need him the most would be unholy. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, so the Holy Spirit will never be taken from us. That is blasphemy against the holy ghost.

21.The church isn't raptured up so you Christians better hope the Holy Spirit doesn't fall away!

22. Don't understand this statement.

23. Then a post-trib would be a lie if it conflicts with the bible, just as a church rapture in inconsistent with the bible scriptures. The only rapture that isn't inconsistent with the bible is the rapture of the 144,000 elect servants of God who are redeemed from the earth.

24. A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day to God.

25.The Judgment Seat of Christ and the final judgment takes place after the second coming of Christ and even after the Resurrections and also the life we live again here on earth so satan can deceive the nations again. This is after the battle of Armageddon and after the next big battle where the enemy which is as numerous as the sands of the sea surround God's people and their camp.

26. The four and twenty elders existed long, long, long time before the church did.

27. Rev 21:9-10

9. One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

28. How can you say all Christians are Raptured up, but the tribulation saints don't get raptured up? Is that how the Love of God works... take some but not all?

Isaiah 65:17 "Behold, I will create

new heavens and a new earth.

The former things will not be remembered,

nor will they come to mind.

29. Takes place long after the 2nd coming. This is the final judgment and we read that ALL THE CHRISTIANS WERE NOT RAPTURED UP! What part of this don't people understand? A Rapture of all the Christians would make these verses lies.

30. There you go! That is very True, so there can not be a translation of all the Christians. The Rapture is nothing more than the elect being caught up in the clouds. This is a very limited mumber of Christians. (144,000). This does not include all the Christians. A Rapture of all the Christians would make these verses lies.

31. Everyone except the 144,000 who are redeemed from the earth, will be resurrected to live again then to face the final Judgment of the Lord. A Rapture of all the Christians would make these verses lies.

32. Only 144,000 are caught up in the clouds. Since they are caught up in the clouds, Christ is in the clouds and hasn't returned completely yet. This merely means Christ hasn't touched down on earth on Mount Zion until this meeting in the air takes place.

33.True because it splits as Christ returns. See answer above.

34.True! Actually the saints are the Elect that the angels sealed in their foreheads. The Saints are not translated at the 2nd coming. They are resurrected and live again on the earth. The Saints who were beheaded reign with Christ for a thousand years. All other Saints and sinners will be resurrected after the thousand years are up. (Rev 20:4-6)

35. True! When Christ returns he judges the world by defeating the kings of the earth and sending his angels to throw the evil doers in the fiery furnace and leave his righteous here on earth.

Your teachings that they are left here to be deserted is false. Christ is not going home until after he has destroyed the evil one and judged all the people. The earth at this time is the Lord's government here on earth and he has to stay and run it so he can turn the world over to his Father when he is done.

36. This is false. A person who has received salvation is protected from the Wrath of God. God has no intentions of tormenting nor torturing his elect. By watching and being patient we are able to endure until the end. The coming of Christ is a deliverance of stopping the tribulations of the beast by throwing him and the false prophet into the lake of fire. Christ returns to destroy the beast and false prophet, chain satan up and Resurrect the Saints and reign with them for a thousand years here on year. AFTER THE THOUSAND YEARS Christ Resurrects the rest of the world, which would be impossible if all the Christians were Raptured (Translated) up.

It is the tribulations that the Christians need to be taken out of because they are weak minded and can't fight off the beast and his mark.

37. I have no problem with that.

38. I have no problem with that.

39. The Rapture is for a select group of Elect Christians, Not All the Born Again Christians. The tribulation and Wrath of God and second coming of Christ applies to the whole world.

40. I have no problem with this.

41. No one is resurrected "at" the second coming nor any translation of any living saints "at" this event. These Resurrections happen after Christ send his angels to throw the evil doers in the fiery furnace (Matt 13:41-43) and Christ slays (Revelation 19:21) the evil with the sword that proceeded from his mouth. Then the people are Resurrected. (Rev 20:4-6)

42. Even an idiot knows the difference between the "great tribulations" and our everyday tribulations. Pre-trib view has nothing to do with it.

43. Okay!

44. Not a problem

45. See Revelation 7:15 These people aren't part of the Church?

46. (Rev 6) is the everyday tribulations we face everyday. The four horsemen causing death by wars, diseases, weather disasters and animal attacks on men, auto accidents, etc., etc.. These are the seven seals. (Rev 11) is the beginning of the "Wrath of God" when the 7 angels sound their trumpets.

Then the beast comes up out of the sea. Now the false prophet and the Beast and anti-christ start the great tribulation. Followed by the return of Christ and the seven bowls which are the seven last plagues which is also the last of the Wrath of God.

47. When the seventh trumpet sounds in Rev 11, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." The nations are angry and God's wrath has come.

The time has come to judge the dead, but not the very same day, week, month, year, nor Millennium.

The 7th trumpet in Rev 11 is the last trumpet to blow in the scriptures, so it must be the same trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When the 7th and last trumpet sounds, it is not sounding for the souls who are caught up in the clouds. It has sounded to signal the end has come and the reign of Christ and to also represent the end of the final judgment when all souls are changed instantly for their journey home. It doesn't sound twice, it sounds once to acknowledge both events as being the finish. This trumpet doesn't represent the tribulation because it has already occurred. It could represent the church being raised after the final judgment, but it would also be sounding for those who are cast into the lake of fire and for those who inherit the earth.

1 Corinthians 6:2

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

48. Not familiar with teachings of Daniel.

49. Matthew 24:30-31

30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So the Son of Man is coming on the clouds of the sky, (sounds like your cloud ride parkerbrothers), and he sends his angels with a loud trumpet call to gather his elect from the FOUR WINDS...

That sounds like it matches.... the 144,000 servants of God who were sealed in the foreheads and the FOUR WINDS are held back for them

Revelation 7:1-4

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

This doesn't sound like the church but the elect in the rapture. The church is sent to heaven after the final judgment.

50. When we say come we mean come to the kingdom of heaven (the Bride) or the New City of Jerusalem (Revelation 21:9-10). No one comes to the kingdom of heaven until after it is created after everyone is judged.

Revelation 21:9-10

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,...

Looks like the Bride isn't the church at all, but is the New city of Jerusalem or the New Heaven.

Unique-Lies,

Continued repetions of your "secrets" is not going to convert Christians over to your modified gnostic twist of the Watchtower view.

You may believe you can call the cat a dog long enough to get the cat to bark but it is only your ears hearing the meow bark.

If King James is twisted then teach out of your Jewish books. If you are going to teach Jewish Hebrew and Greek, then preach to them. From what I see the Jews doing, I wouldn't worship by their religion. I worship my God not some old nasty wall nor kiss a diseased wall or ground that everyone walks on?

The King James has been given to us here in America to learn by. That is the bible I read and study by. The Strongs were used long ago to translate the bible, it isn't something that came up recently. If the translators couldn't get it right how do we know we will?

I rely on the holy spirit to explain it. All of you can learn from one another... as it is written. I don't see anyone learning anything, you are all just resiting what you have been told by the Pharisees and Scribes.

May you all Rapture up off the earth before you get hurt in any way or be tested by God and go home to your Father.

Hopefully, I won't have to put up with some of you down here on earth after "we" earthlings are Resurrected. Say hi to the 144,000 for me!

To return to my old analogy,y'all are arguing about whether the test will be before or after lunch when it remains to be seen whether we've mastered the material we're to be tested on.

Let's see...

What were the terms of that "learning contract" again?

What "competencies" are we to demonstrate?

Oh,yes,I remember.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Micah 6:8

"He has showed you, O man, what is good.

And what does the LORD require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy

and to walk humbly with your God."

Leviticus 19:18

"Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."

Leviticus 19:34 "But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God".

Matthew 7:12

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

Luke 6:31

"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise."

Luke 10:25-28

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, 'Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?'

He said unto him,'What is written in the law? how readest thou?' And he answering said, 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.'

And He said unto him, 'Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.' "

Different creeds have expressed the ethic of reciprocity in different ways and some have criticized such rules for not taking into account the other person's desires and needs.

But,seeking the welfare of those around us is the meaning behind most of Holy Writ.

(Hillel says all the rest is commentary)

Matthew 6:33

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you."

If we ask to know God's will,if we ask for the strength to carry it out,will we not act in love and wisdom according to His purpose?

Will that not make us fit for whatever we need to face in our day-to-day lives,in times of crisis,at the hour of our greatest suffering and during the times of our greatest joy?

May God grant us the power to live each mundane day as He would have us do.

If we can manage that,what does it matter what scenarios we face or what cast of characters or timetable the end times have?

We act in such a way that we are part of making His will on earth as it is in Heaven.

I don't mean to disparage a serious discussion of the Last Days but I can't make myself that interested in minutiae such as whether Christ saw His shadow when He exited the tomb.

We'll find out the details of the end times when they occur.

Let us concentrate on being prepared for those times.

That preparation might be better accomplished if we place less emphasis on what the enemy is doing and who has favored status and more stress on what the Lord expects of us today and tomorrow.

If we look to Him,will we not have our victory,our salvation,our healing and the desires of our heart?

Let's meet the New Year unified in a desire to live according to God's will instead of dividing our strength by arguments that generate more heat than Light.

Awww, yes. FAITH

For

Admission

In

To

Heaven!!!!

But,sometimes,we want to sit around and argue over whether zebras are black with white stripes or white with black stripes and forget that by Christ's stripes we are healed and that healing enables us to accomplish anything that is within HIS power-even cast off our sin burden and even take on whatever our foe dishes out-any time,any place.

Posted by quantumcat on Mon, Dec 29, 2008, at 11:35 PM

quantumcat,

The issue is not really over the color of the stripes on the zebra. I have long known that the zebra is actually gray and has both black and white stripes that cover the ugly gray.

The real issue being discussed is the value of the stripes.

I believe the stripes of Christ are fully sufficient to heal us (sinners) of the sin virus that leads to death if not treated. I believe that once the medicine is swallowed (not just tasted and spit out) we are permananetly immune from the virus. His blanket of stripes cover us and our ugly gray.

Others would mistakingly have you believe the ingestion of the medicine will only provide a temporary relief of the symptoms of the deadly virus until you once again come into contact with this sin virus and His blanket of stripes would be jerked off of us sick ones. Furthermore they would have you believe that once you came into contact again with the virus that the only remedy left is to have your head chopped off as a remedy of relief.

They mistakingly devalue the miraculous cure that is available and promote it as a mere one time cure for temporary relief of the symptoms instead of the permanent cure it actually is.

So maybe you can see the argument is actually over whether the zebra actually has a blanket of sufficient stripes to cover the gray or not?

No argument with me. Nothing to argue about. I see no gray. I see a sufficient blanket of stripes covering this gray zebra. I am healed.

How can He reject what He has bought when He knew about all flaws before He paid the price asked of Him?

Posted by quantumcat on Tue, Dec 30, 2008, at 1:46 PM

quantumcat,

Now that is a good point.

Michael,

On your blog comment dated December 26, 2008 at 11:00PM you use Todd Strandberg's words - word for word. When you do that, I would appreciate it if you site and give credit to the original author of the document. Others may want to see and read the original source. It may be found on - www.raptureready.com/rr-immimency.html . It is the proper thing to do; your omission violates the courtesy of re-posts and also may violate the terms of the Times-Gazette blog contract.

It shows respect for the author and even when you have permission to use their words courtesy dictates you give credit where credit is due

Thank You and have a blessed New Year.

amalphia,

The author gives his opinion below which is the main one that counts. It seems he has a good attitude about the spreading of the beautiful word and list all the ways you may spread it without any permission or acknowledgement needed.

He truly has a good attitude. It is easy to see who his Master is and who his work is devoted to. This guy started the site at the young age of 22 in 1987. He has my admiration.

-------------------

Several people have asked me if they could reproduce articles found on this web page. I always say, "Yes of course." In fact, readers may disseminate this information via mail, e-mail, airmail, oral conversation, billboards, carrier pigeons, pony express, smoke signals; by means of telephone, television, telegraph, teletype; through Braille, sign language, placing messages in bottles, drum beats, books, CD's, radio, and telepathy for you New Age folks. When the rapture should take place, resulting in my absence, it will become necessary for tribulation saints to mirror or financially support this site.

------------------

It is easy to see where he wants the credit to go.

When one quotes from the bible, the chapter and verse are included. We should have no issue citing and giving credit to another man's beliefs and words when he too is spreading the good news. This is not the first time Michael has forgotten to give credit to another man's message. I hope it is the last.

Todd can defend his words when queried about them. Michael may not, as they are not his words inspired by the Holy Spirit. I hope you are not encouraging people to plagiarize comments from this blog. Yes, they can repeat or re-print any words written here, but I would hope that when they do they give credit to the person who was first inspired to write them.

supposed to be do and credit, sorry.

point well taken Have a Happy New Year.

michaelbell posted:

If there is no rapture of the saints as unique says then explain this verse.

I prefer to be called Unique-Lies because I reveal the Lies people teach, not because I am unique.

Rev.13:16 And he causeth all, both small, great, rich, poor free and bond to receive a mark in their right hand or their foreheads.17 and no man might buy or sell, save that he had the mark, or the name of the beast or the number of his name.

-- Posted by michaelbell on Wed, Dec 31, 2008, at 10:01 AM

Answers:

Back up to Rev 13:7-10

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Everyone that dwell upon the earth whose name isn't written in the book of life will worship the enemy. All Christians are to keep their faith and hope for the best. If you kill those who come after you, you will be killed. The Lord God will spare those whose names are written in the book of life.

Then to Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

You should consider the fact that you may not live long enough to accept/refuse the mark of the beast. If anyone refuses to worship the image of the beast they could be killed before they even get the chance to accept or refuse the mark of the beast. You are putting the cart before the horse.

If you stand up to the anti-Christ and the beasts, and worship only God, you may be killed long before the mark of the beast comes along.

These are part of the people the bible says will be in the first Resurrection. (Rev 20:4-6)

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

It doesn't say everyone takes the mark, it says they have to if they are going to buy or sell anything. The beast and anti-Christ makes life as impossible for the Christians as he can.

Anyone who doesn't accept the mark may get killed or just starve to death. These people will be part of the people in the 1st Resurrection. (Rev 20:4-6),

which would not be possible if all the Christians were raptured up.

The Bible tells the Christians are to wait and watch patiently for his return. This means not to keep watching the sky for his return but to keep doing righteousness until he returns. It is the righteousness that the Lord is looking for when he returns, not cloud nor UFO watchers. Keep his commands and endure patiently, without doing evil or killing the enemies in the world.

Revelation 3:10

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth

Luke 21:34-36

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

->

except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:

->

Matthew 24:21-24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

False Christs, false prophets, great signs and wonders, yet everyone will be looking for the Christ to rapture them up. How convenient will that be for the anti-Christ?

It will be like the days of Noah. The good remained alive on earth and the evil was taken away by the flood. When he returns, the good will remain and the evil will be taken away by the fire and brimstone and huge hail, earthquakes, famines and pestilences and plagues and finally by the sword that proceedeth from his mouth.

I hope everyone has a Happy and Prosperous New Year.

I acknowledged your post was taken from the internet or other literature which I didn't reply to. I know your work and knew you didn't write it.

As far as your Jewish literature goes, the Jews turned from God and don't even believe in him. some do and some don't and that is after God went with them in the desert to protect them.

God got so upset with them that even Moses had to convince God not to destroy the whole lot of them in the wilderness (Deuteronomy 9:24-29).

God has banned the tribe of Dan from his 12 tribes and replaced it with (Manasseh) one of Joseph's Egyptian sons (Rev 7:4-8).