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Posted Tuesday, February 3, 2009, at 10:22 AM

I want to propose a question to all of you out there.

With all the advances of science, and technology out there, how far do you think science should go before ethics come into play?

For instance, helping child barren couples have children is fine by me, curing all diseases is great, whatever is done to help humanity is fine, for I believe whether the science world will admit it or not, the intelligence came from God!

We know that they have cloned animals, like Dolly the sheep. the lady who had her favorite dog brought back to life in cloned puppies or whatever she did is one thing.

The question is "If man is created in God's image[which I absolutely believe] And God gives soul, spirit and or a conscience which man uses to feel emotions, love guilt, remorse, sin,some don't choose to feel that now.

If and or when[ I believe when] science clones a human being, would the clone have these feelings or would he or she even have a soul or conscience? Would they know what right or wrong was?

What if you took that clone and kept him away from all media and all outside sources of education or peoples opinions, teach him to read only the Bible, and a book on evolution with no outside influences, which would he deem to be true?

Science is great, but when does it overstep it's bounds and invade God's territory?

Comments
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Pretty impressive questions and thoughts on this blog, Michael. And it is very important that alot of governments are talking about ethics regarding cloning etc.

We really can't say much about the Soul, Conscience, Spirit part because, we really don't know how that works. Way beyond our understanding and science, like you said it came from God. But how do we find out what happens unless we try? Very good questions to ponder and even ask about.

If you took the clone and placed him into isolation and only taught him what you wanted to teach him, I believe he would believe what you taught him. If you take him out of the element, he would learn other things, just like a child. When you introduce new things to someone, 95% of the time, the first reaction is disbelief. It all how about how you introduce the information and the tone in which it is given.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 11:20 AM

What I mean is to not teach him, teach him to read with out bias of either book, then let him decide which he believes.

-- Posted by michaelbell on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 11:42 AM

Yeah I know what you meant. I think your thought would be, When he chose which to believe, what would it be? Very hard question to answer, as everyone is different I imagine the clone would have a difference too.

I guess the best test would be to try 100 clones of the same genetic makeup and give them the Bible and a book on evolution and ask them which they find more truthful? If they were divided then you know they have a conscience and can make a choice.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 1:31 PM

Identical twins ARE clones(the same genetics). I hope they have a soul and a conscience (haha to my identical twin friends). They were albeit briefly (minutes to hours) the same person. The man-made clones I'm assuming would be like that also. Identical genetically but different due to upbringing. There have been studies that suggest a "connection" between the twins but nothing conclusive but with some uncanny coincidences. Good topic.

-- Posted by gordo1965 on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 1:33 PM

Yeah Twins are Natural clones, but not artifically produced like we are talking about. Think that is the difference that I been pondering about and why this is such a dicussion that has more merit based on, "Are we playing God" when it has been decided to do this.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 1:55 PM

Watch the movie Gattaca and it will definitely change your opinion about cloning. Definitely brings up some very valid points!

-- Posted by jaxspike on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 2:05 PM

I have twins, different fingerprints and all, if the clone has the same DNA as the original, would it have the same prints, memories or flaws as the one it was taken from.

God made each of use unique, whether it was through what we call evolution, DNA or whatever.

If the original had a mean streak or a phobia, would the copy have it?

Weird questions, but I believe we are on the threshold of finding out the answers.

-- Posted by michaelbell on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 2:15 PM

I have twins, different fingerprints and all, if the clone has the same DNA as the original, would it have the same prints, memories or flaws as the one it was taken from.

Posted by michaelbell on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 2:15 PM

Michael,

Since heredity is only part of the makeup of our personalities I believe a lot would be contingent on what the eyes and ears of any twins were exposed to. Very few twins would be exposed to all the same sets of circumstances at the exact same time. A single event in life can be life changing so I doubt twins could ever have the same memories or flaws. I have heard that the personality is 50% genetic and 50% enviroment but I really have to think that it is 10% genetic and 90% enviroment.

Are your twins identical or fraternal?

-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 4:20 PM

fraternal

-- Posted by michaelbell on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 4:39 PM

Out of curiousity, do identical twins have the same fingerprints?

-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 5:03 PM

http://multiples.about.com/cs/funfacts/a...

according to all the sources I can find , the answer is no.

-- Posted by michaelbell on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 5:10 PM

http://www.webmd.com/healthy-aging/featu...

this may answer some of our questions.

-- Posted by michaelbell on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 5:13 PM

I doubt it would be possible to give any two people the same experiences.

From conception on,they would have unique influences that would affect their physical,mental and spiritual make-up.

If one accepts the idea of the soul,then even clones or parallel world analogs would have a different spirit.

I know that much of what formed my character was the result of the times I grew up in and the people I've known.

I was raised in an environment where science was respected and a source of hope.

We had our fears about alien mauraders and radiation-spawned monsters but we also believed that science could take us to the stars and give us a better standard of living.

We never got the shuttle rides to malls on the Moon but permanent press and the Internet turned out pretty good.

At the same time,we had visions of people having opportunities their forebears never had.

We looked ahead to a time of peace and justice that would start out on the grassroots level until it spread from a sit-in at a soda fountain to the tearing down of the Berlin Wall.

That didn't quite turn out as planned,either but the ripples from the positive spirit born of two World Wars and a Depression convinced us that we could overcome any obstacle and make real all our dreams.

Much of that optimism came from the security derived from loving families,a faith in social justice and a belief that the world was good and based on rational order.

The Bible Belt values and science didn't seem contradictory in the setting I grew up in.

Instead,they had a synergy with the traditional values of the People of the Book offering science heart and prudence while science protected religion from veering off into superstition,pseudo-science,destructive isms and cult mentalities.

As a result of that worldview,neither anti-religious extremism (associated with the U.S.S.R) or rabid anti-intellectualism really took hold in the dominant culture.

There was no bondage to a party line that rejected God or science.

The atom or a DNA helix could be beautiful and evolution could be God's way of continuing the Creation of His universe just as He continues to work in our own lives.

Because that mind-set prevailed during my formative years,I let Darwin,Leakey,Sagan and Gould suggest how our world developed while Aquinas,Zwingli,Rambam and Barth told us why.

If I'd grown up in another time and exposed to different events and people,I might have asked the same questions but I might have taken a very different route to the same or different conclusions.

-- Posted by quantumcat on Tue, Feb 3, 2009, at 7:02 PM

Actually, regardless of fields of endeavor, ethical behavior is a must. In "science" there is probably more ethics employed by the scientist, both mental and physical, than is employed in any other fields. Why, because you have to be true to yourself and your project in order to get an accurate finding or result, that can be repeated or proven in testing of your results.

I do not find a problem with any form of research including "cloning" as God has given man the desire for knowledge. Knowledge and the acquired skills of the men of science have helped mankind progress beyond expectations of our fore fathers.

I certainly believe God intended man to progress or we would not have. Our limitations are probably controlled by God. I believe we should leave our limits in his capable hands.

I, believe a person becomes a living soul, when he recieves the "breath of life" from God. Until that time it is mere flesh. Clone or not it is God's "breath of life" that created a "living soul". Gen. 2:7.

-- Posted by dipperdan on Wed, Feb 4, 2009, at 12:09 AM

I some how neglected to make a general statement "God the creator" cannot be excluded from any activity concerning his creation, therefore, everything we do is in His "territory".

-- Posted by dipperdan on Wed, Feb 4, 2009, at 11:13 AM

Amen.

I suspect Anyone who could make folks from dirt,ribs ,stones,elderly moms and immaculate conceptions isn't too stuck on conventional reproduction.

Whatever we humans do or however we do it,it takes Him to provide the vital ingredient of a soul.

If He could do that with a pebble meant to become a son of Abraham,he could do it with a baby conceived in a Petri dish from a cheek swab or a stem cell retrieved from body fat.

He wouldn't even be limited to our species.

Once ensouled,I'd guess one person would be pretty much like another,whatever their origins might be.

-- Posted by quantumcat on Thu, Feb 5, 2009, at 12:16 PM

Each human being is endowed with certain gifts, talents, and natural skills. His definitive Liberty, the ability and Right to make choices, requires criteria equipping the individual or group to anticipate consequences prior to choosing.

Since each individual human is born-into an ego-centered experience, he cannot invent criteria greater than self. Thus, his choices will be mediocre at best.

The Judeo-Christian Creator has equipped humans with His Word; criteria for choice man cannot invent, producing excellence in every effort.

Failing to choose superiority, man will fail and fall into a collective effort of failure - and worse.

Leadership requires leaders who are 1. Teachable and 2. Visionary. "No one is smarter than their criteria." Incubate that truth for awhile and allow the Creator, who made you in His own image, to teach you. Be Blessed. Jim Baxter

-- Posted by Choicemaker on Thu, Feb 19, 2009, at 5:50 PM

The missing element in every human 'solution' is

an accurate definition of the creature.

The way we define 'human' determines our view of self,

others, relationships, institutions, life, and future. Many

problems in human experience are the result of false

and inaccurate definitions of humankind premised

in man-made religions and humanistic philosophies.

Humanism makes man his own standard of measure.

However, as with all measuring systems, a standard

must be greater than the value measured. Based on

preponderant ignorance and an egocentric carnal

nature, humanism demotes reason to the simpleton

task of excuse-making in behalf of the rule of appe-

tites, desires, feelings, emotions, - and glands.

Because man, hobbled in an ego-centric predicament,

cannot invent criteria greater than himself, the humanist

lacks a predictive capability. Thus, his man-made criteria

rises no higher than eyebrows - and too often, no higher

than pubic hair! Without instinct or transcendent criteria,

humanism cannot evaluate options with foresight and

vision for progression and survival. Lacking foresight,

man is blind to potential consequence and is unwittingly

committed to mediocrity, collectivism, averages, and re-

gression - and worse. Humanism is an unworthy worship.

Human is earth's Choicemaker. Psalm 25:12 He is by

nature and nature's God a creature of Choice - and of

Criteria. Psalm 119:30,173 His unique and definitive

characteristic is, and of Right ought to be, the natural

foundation of his environments, institutions, and re-

spectful relations to his fellow-man. Thus, he is orien-

ted to a Freedom whose roots are in the Order of the

universe. selah

Each individual human being possesses a unique, highly

developed, and sensitive perception of variety. Thus

aware, man is endowed with a natural capability for enact-

ing internal mental and external physical selectivity.

Quantitative and qualitative choice-making thus lends

itself as the superior basis of an active intelligence.

Human is earth's Choicemaker. His title describes

his definitive and typifying characteristic. Recall

that his other features are but vehicles of experi-

ence intent on the development of perceptive

awareness and the following acts of decision and

choice. Note that the products of man cannot define

him for they are the fruit of the discerning choice-

making process and include the cognition of self,

the utility of experience, the development of value-

measuring systems and language, and the accultur-

ation of civilization.

The arts and the sciences of man, as with his habits,

customs, and traditions, are the creative harvest of

his perceptive and selective powers. Creativity, the

creative process, is a choice-making process. His

articles, constructs, and commodities, however

marvelous to behold, deserve neither awe nor idol-

atry, for man, not his contrivance, is earth's own

highest expression of the creative process.

Human is earth's Choicemaker. The sublime and

significant act of choosing is, itself, the Archimedean

fulcrum upon which man levers and redirects the

forces of cause and effect to an elected level of qual-

ity and diversity. Further, it orients him toward a

natural environmental opportunity, freedom, and

bestows earth's title, The Choicemaker, on his

singular and plural brow.

That human institution which is structured on the

principle, "...all men are endowed by their Creator with

...Liberty...," is a system with its roots in the natural

Order of the universe. The opponents of such a system are

necessarily engaged in a losing contest with nature and

nature's God. Biblical principles are still today the

foundation under Western Civilization and the American

way of life. To the advent of a new season we commend the

present generation and the "multitudes in the valley of

decision."

Let us proclaim it. Behold!

2009 AD: The Season of Generation-Choicemaker Joel 3:14 KJV

"No one is smarter than their criteria,"

-- Posted by Choicemaker on Thu, Feb 19, 2009, at 6:00 PM

CONTEMPORARY COMMENTS

"I should think that if there is one thing that man has

learned about himself it is that he is a creature of

choice." Richard M. Weaver

"Man is a being capable of subduing his emotions and

impulses; he can rationalize his behavior. He arranges

his wishes into a scale, he chooses; in short, he acts.

What distinguishes man from beasts is precisely that he

adjusts his behavior deliberately." Ludwig von Mises

"To make any sense of the idea of morality, it must be

presumed that the human being is responsible for his

actions and responsibility cannot be understood apart

from the presumption of freedom of choice."

John Chamberlain

"The advocate of liberty believes that it is complementary

of the orderly laws of cause and effect, of probability

and of chance, of which man is not completely informed.

It is complementary of them because it rests in part upon

the faith that each individual is endowed by his Creator

with the power of individual choice."

Wendell J. Brown

"These examples demonstrate a basic truth -- that human

dignity is embodied in the free choice of individuals."

Condoleeza Rice

"Our Founding Fathers believed that we live in an ordered

universe. They believed themselves to be a part of the

universal order of things. Stated another way, they

believed in God. They believed that every man must find

his own place in a world where a place has been made for

him. They sought independence for their nation but, more

importantly, they sought freedom for individuals to think

and act for themselves. They established a republic

dedicated to one purpose above all others - the preserva-

tion of individual liberty..." Ralph W. Husted

"We have the gift of an inner liberty so far-reaching

that we can choose either to accept or reject the God

who gave it to us, and it would seem to follow that the

Author of a liberty so radical wills that we should be

equally free in our relationships with other men.

Spiritual liberty logically demands conditions of outer

and social freedom for its completion." Edmund A. Opitz

"Above all I see an ability to choose the better from the

worse that has made possible life's progress."

Charles Lindbergh

"Freedom is the Right to Choose, the Right to create for

oneself the alternatives of Choice. Without the possibil-

ity of Choice, and the exercise of Choice, a man is not

a man but a member, an instrument, a thing."

Thomas Jefferson

THE QUESTION AND THE ANSWER

Q: "What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son

of man that You visit him?" Psalm 8:4

A: "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against

you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing

and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and

your descendants may live." Deuteronomy 30:19

Q: "Lord, what is man, that You take knowledge of him?

Or the son of man, that you are mindful of him?" Psalm

144:3

A: "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose

for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the

gods which your fathers served that were on the other

side of the river, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose

land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will

serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15

Q: "What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is

born of a woman, that he could be righteous?" Job 15:14

A: "Who is the man that fears the Lord? Him shall He

teach in the way he chooses." Psalm 25:12

Q: "What is man, that You should magnify him, that You

should set Your heart on him?" Job 7:17

A: "Do not envy the oppressor and choose none of his

ways." Proverbs 3:31

Q: "What is man that You are mindful of him, or the son

of man that You take care of him?" Hebrews 2:6

A: "I have chosen the way of truth; your judgments I have

laid before me." Psalm 119:30 "Let Your hand become my

help, for I have chosen Your precepts."Psalm 119:173

References:

Genesis 3:3,6 Deuteronomy 11:26-28; 30:19 Job 5:23

Isaiah 7:14-15; 13:12; 61:1 Amos 7:8 Joel 3:14

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

DEDICATION

Sir Isaac Newton

The greatest scientist in human history

a Bible-Believing Christian

an authority on the Bible's Book of Daniel

committed to individual value

and individual liberty

Daniel 9:25-26 Habakkuk 2:2-3 selah

"No one is smarter than their criteria." JFB

-- Posted by Choicemaker on Thu, Feb 19, 2009, at 6:24 PM

View From the Crossroads

Michael Bell

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A man getting to the roots of his faith.

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