Fleecing the Sheep

Posted Monday, February 9, 2009, at 3:31 PM

I have been fighting whether or not to do this blog, but I would not be doing God right, if he put it on my heart and I refused to do it so here goes. I am sure I will be called out on this by people of the clergy and those not of the cloth, but I can't worry what man thinks just God.

I hear about churches that tell their church that no matter what the situation there tithes must come first, no matter whether a foreclosure is at hand or someones health, that just does not seem right to me. Is it me or has anyone else felt like a bad person when the offering plate comes around and you put in little to nothing or sometimes even nothing and the ones passing the plate gives you that look?

First IF and only IF a group of believers wants to and can financially support a minister, they should do it. If not then the preacher should compensate his own income.

Second, that was one of the main reasons that the Catholic church made abstinence, and banned marriage of the clergy. Among the priest and clergy anything donated to them would and could not be tied up in a settlement case because of a divorce, this may explain why the Catholic church became so rich. Then again their clergy does live in the church and does not have any luxuries whatsoever, or at least they are not supposed to.

Tithing in the Old Testament was of goods which was to take care of the poor, widows, and orphans, not to buy million dollar buildings, sound systems, and all the rest, if God wants you to have this he will provide them.

When Abraham gave his tenth to Melchizedek, it was of his spoils from the battle, not his own possessions. There is no recorded demand of Abraham for a tenth. Neither is an explanation given about why he gave a tenth. Jacob promised to give a tenth only if God blessed him first.

In a way our taxes to the government serves the same purpose as tithe, because it does go for welfare and the needy, or at least it is supposed to.

It might have been custom after a battle to give a tenth of the spoils to the high priest or ruler of the area that was freed?

I much rather have a box in the back of the building labeled offerings and state that if the church has helped you in anyway that out of the goodness their hearts that your offerings would be appreciated.

When Jesus sent the apostles out, no plates or anything was taken with them, God does not send out beggars, believers will take care of their own.

Can foods, dry goods, bathroom supplies, work for the church would do just as good as money at Crossroads. Do I believe a Pastor can work a full time job and preach on Sunday's? yes I do!

I work a full time job and still have lots of study time and prayer time and family time.

5:8 But if any provideth not for his own, and specially his own household, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever.

1 Timothy 5:8 ASV

I thoroughly believe that the church is to take care of it's own and I mean all of it's own not just a select few.

Know what the needs are of the sheep in your fence before worrying about everyone else.

As in the days of Nehemiah, take care the walls in front of your house[church] first then take care of the city.

Does it not seem wrong that some church leaders have multiple cars, fine house, country club passes, even planes and yachts, and there excuse is that God blessed them?

At God's children's expense in my opinion.

A church should not be in debt, before you get a bigger building, hold two or even three services if you have to.

God will send a man of God his provider when the time is right, until then remember

20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no? 20:23 But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me? 20:24 Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's. 20:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. 20:26 And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.

Luke 20:22-26 KJV

That which belongs to God is your mind, body , and soul for God created them.

In closing there is nothing wrong with tithing, but don't base your salvation on it, for YOU COULD GIVE EVERY DIME YOU MAKE AND YOU STILL CAN'T BUY YOUR WAY TO HEAVEN.

Though some think they can and some churches even tell them they can.

I have known of some churches who kept track of those who gave and didn't and to those that did, their sins were overlooked and those that did not give, they were picked apart for their faults.

They would gag on the gnats of the non-givers and swallow the camels of the givers.

We are all sinners and should give according to our means , in first century Christianity freewill offerings was taught.

Church was held in different homes as to not be caught by the ones against the Christians and everybody provided, whether it was food, clothing drink or just companionship.

I know the verse in Malachi that is considered the tithing scripture goes as follows

3:8 Will a man rob God? yet ye rob me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 3:9 Ye are cursed with the curse; for ye rob me, even this whole nation. 3:10 Bring ye the whole tithe into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now herewith, saith Jehovah of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough `to receive it'.

Malachi 3:8-10 ASV

If you have the food in the storehouse then thee will be a want for nothing.

God made the animals that give us meat, God gave us the plants, that give us seeds for fruits, vegetables and grains that is what is God's.

If you can tithe , by all means do it, but don't think you are buying a better house in heaven, for to store your treasures in heaven is not the money you give but the lost souls you put on the right path, the path that goes through the Cross that Jesus died on and shed his blood for all sinners to come to repentance.

As far as Crossroads go, God will provide in his due season not mine, whether somebody furnishes the building supplies or whatever is needed.

I will make my own way and provide what I can to help the church grow, though not at the cost of the children of God!

Remember, you have to let the fleece grow back every now and then to get good quality and a abundance.

Comments
Showing comments in chronological order
[Show most recent comments first]

I love the picture. The glasses give you an intellectual look.

-- Posted by gottago on Mon, Feb 9, 2009, at 6:37 PM

I have had that look since I was 4 years old then, I have a tough time wearing contacts.

-- Posted by michaelbell on Mon, Feb 9, 2009, at 7:02 PM

That is a terrific pic.

Strong,friendly and showing savvy confidence.

The hat and shirt suggest the "formal" dark clothes of the clergy while being both down-home and edgy.

They look good with your beard and frames,too.

(The smile is a great addition,as well.)

That image suggests a preacher in the style of the Jesus people of the 60's and 70's.

These were the "muscular Christianity" crowd that were casual and real-world oriented and sought to put first century faith back in the hands of the people.

No "frozen chosen" high church,no slick "blab it and grab it" gimmickry,no pop psychology country clubs or long-faced fearmongers.

Instead,you had people who performed missions,made visitations,studied the Word as much as they sang hymns and formed real church communities.

(Ironically,they might have begotten the mega-church because they often created schools,daycare centers,rec centers,food banks,shelters,etc. in order to serve the needs of the flock "in-house" and every hour of the week.)

There was a big emphasis on Martin Luther's "priesthood of all believers" and a downplaying of Christianity as something better left to the "professionals".

Instead,all were expected to give of themselves to God.

The church wasn't just a building and faith wasn't something one took out of the closet a couple of hours a week.

Belief was *supposed* to be incorporated into work,family life,recreation,social action and every other aspect of existence.

(There was a place for full-time trained and paid Christian workers,too,but they also worked 24/7.)

Once,rabbis and such were salaried and given houses,etc. as compensation for their not being able to hold down a regular full-time job and perform their spiritual duties.

When they had to be teacher,preacher,political representative,counsellor,C E O (and attend to a thousand other tasks),something had to give.

All that was fine until the laity decided to let the spiritual leaders do all Godly work on their behalf.

(That made as much sense as letting the trainer at the gym do all the aerobics and weight-lifting.

We don't get strengthened that much if all we do is watch someone else make an effort.)

Tithing was a way of providing financial support to the spiritual family but it was also a reminder that every member of a family provides something.

They may not have much in the way of goods or skills.

(How well does a toddler do household or farm chores? But,we give them assignments so they learn how and why to work within the family.)

But,the person who can't give time or funds or goods or talent or prayer can give others the chance to help them and bless them by becoming blessed.

Our experience with the Lord can be private or public.

It can come forth from a church plant or from the street.

It can involve those who write books,play music and give stirring sermons or it can mean just being a friend.

Man might insist on tithing (or child support) as a way of seeing that the bills are paid and punishing people who want perks without responsibilities.

We might also want the flock to pay us back for our grass and grain and herd dogs and keeping watch by night by providing us a steady diet of mutton and mint jelly.

But,I think God asks us to give of ourselves so we will feel invested in His work.

The food we grow in our own garden tastes the best.

The craft we make gives us pleasure beyond the skill or materials involved in making it.

The souls we nurture and the community we shape will have more value for us than if we were just passive recipients of the Lord's gifts.

God includes us in His work for the same reason adults might arrange to let children work alongside them.

1. It teaches the youngsters about what the grown-ups do.

2. It lets them develop their own abilities.

3. It's a bonding experience between the teacher and the learner.

4. It can be a lot of fun for all concerned.

A good Pastor leads,guards and nurtures His flock but He doesn't shear the sheep so they can be seared by the sun or shiver in the cold.

He does it so they can be useful to Him in a way that a predator would never imagine.

-- Posted by quantumcat on Tue, Feb 10, 2009, at 5:16 AM

I will take that as a compliment, I think!

-- Posted by michaelbell on Tue, Feb 10, 2009, at 5:36 AM

i have been on the end where a minister was abusive aqnd insisted on tithes and offerings ect.. i always felt something was wrong about that picture and felt odd about it.

That said, I totally believe in tithing, i have and we do tithe on our gross not take home for this reason: God told us to, no because we were cohersed.

When my son drowned and died, God told us clearly because we had been faithful he would rebuke the devourer for our sakes.

We have always given even when we made around 5,000.00 a year. We took people in, fed them and helped them.

Your tithe can be time or money.

It can be service.

You hear your heart.

If a minister is not willing to get a "real" job then that is a red flag. There is pride in the house. I totally believe in taking care of a minister, but i do not do it at my expense so he/she can buy another hot rod... Been There Done That.. Don't have anything to show for it.

-- Posted by 4fabfelines on Tue, Feb 10, 2009, at 9:40 AM

Oh and the photo is fantastick!!!!

-- Posted by 4fabfelines on Tue, Feb 10, 2009, at 9:40 AM

Ihave to agree with everyone here, Tithing can be community work, money or a donation/service. Not everyone has all the money, skills or abilities that the church can; but it can use just one, the best one.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Tue, Feb 10, 2009, at 12:40 PM

This is the best blog I think you've ever done and I read all of them.

Amen, brother!

-- Posted by MotherMayhem on Tue, Feb 10, 2009, at 1:01 PM

Michael,I meant my comment as a compliment.

God knows our hearts.

We might not always keep the right attitudes but if we WANT to,He'll take us as we are and bring us around.

Too often,we treat tithing/works and their connection to God the same way we treat buying celebrity-endorsed products as creating a link to a favorite star.

We get a t-shirt or poster at a concert or sports event and,by paying to show that we're fans,we think we have some sort of intimacy with our idols.

Our Lord is not an idol.

Anything we do for Him is a result of our love for Him.

It's not a bribe to gain His approval or recognition.

Just as it doesn't do a bit of good to buy the "right" clothes,make-up,sneakers,cereal,sports drink,etc. if we don't have the nature or lifestyle of the famous person who's supposed to thrive on them,it doesn't help to go through the the motions of religion if we don't acquire genuine faith.

Going to church,tithing and charitable giving aren't enough.

Even gifts of the Spirit aren't enough by themselves.

Being a part of God's world and emulating Him has to be more than having the correct "props" for the role.

It has to be more than what we do.

It's about who we are.

We don't need flags and fireworks (or taxes) to love our country.

We don't need candy and cards to love our friends and family.

We don't need hymns or fancy buildings or big projects to show love for God.

We form our important bonds first and sustain them with little things we may not think count.

But,if our love can't exist inside ordinary aspects of ordinary lives,it isn't going to be found in big gestures,grand rituals or holidays.

If our relationship with God seems to be based on mutual exploitation,then it's worse than useless.

When a spiritual relationship (like any other) is based on caring,respect and wanting to make life more fulfilling for the other party,then that's when everyone involved is truly enriched by what they gain from one another.

-- Posted by quantumcat on Tue, Feb 10, 2009, at 1:15 PM

Thanks for all the compliments, I was hesitant on doing it, but that still small voice said to.

I have no problem in the funds going to the church and the members in time of need, there is always work to do in the Kingdom of God.

I think I helped you pay for a couple of those hot rods Lesa!

For the shepherd to be living the high life while his sheep are starving, is totally wrong.

Crossroads will have a food pantry, clothes and whatever else God will bless us with.

Any volunteers to start it with me let me know!

931-205-9806

-- Posted by michaelbell on Tue, Feb 10, 2009, at 4:32 PM

Outstanding Michael:

I too have researched tithing. No need for me to go into detail as you have got the main points across.

I do not give a tithe to any church. I give as I can afford and sometimes that may be nothing. I know that any family member should first be concerned with the care of thier family. Next they are to care for thier neighbor "that is in need". Believe it or not this is what we are really taxed with by God.

God needs nothing, God desires your love, but does not demand it. God provides- it is simply for us to find out how to use what He has provided mankind.

I am a member of God's flock, not any human preacher or minister can answer for me, so why must I answer or sate thier selfish needs.

-- Posted by dipperdan on Tue, Feb 10, 2009, at 6:28 PM

Most preachers say that the "church" is the people and they are right in saying that, so why have the "church" poor why the pastor flourishes?

I think the members could evenly divide the utilities and other cost, if they can maybe provide the pastor something for his time and effort, whether it be gas money or so much per service.

But for the whole income to be from it, not!

The Pastor maybe could make CDs or DVDS OR write books or study guides to compensate his income.

Paul remained a tent maker while he spread the gospel.

When Jesus sent the apostles out , he stated to rely on the generosity of the people, not to go and get 10%.

If a person wants to bless the church with a big donation, by all means do it!

It will not get you no better seat on the bus to the pearly gates.

I know some churches that have some wealthy patrons who will put the pastor and his wife on their own personal payroll, or even two or three families will do this, that is fine also.

But I wonder what the pastor would do if those patrons started doing things contrary to the bible, would he jeopardize his paychecks or turn the blind eye?

If a Pastor has his own job without the churches aid then his only obligation is to God.

-- Posted by michaelbell on Tue, Feb 10, 2009, at 7:12 PM

A word for thought... just today I saw a church sign that relates to this topic very well...

God is not as interested in what you give, as He is in what you keep!

...words that make you go UHM>>>

-- Posted by bkpow on Tue, Feb 10, 2009, at 9:09 PM

Tithing was part of a body of laws given by God through Moses to the ancient nation of Israel. Twelve tribes of Israel were required by law to support a 13th tribe, the priestly Levites, who had no land inheritance. This enabled the Levites to concentrate on the spiritual needs of the nation. (Numbers 18:21-24) Being an agricultural people, the Israelites were not required to pay the tithe in cash. Rather, it was to come from the land's produce and from the increase in livestock. If produce was to be tithed and an Israelite wanted to give money instead, then he had to pay 20 percent more than the value of the produce.--Leviticus 27:30-33.

God's command on tithing was a serious matter. If an Israelite mistakenly used for himself some of what he was going to tithe, then he had to make amends by giving an extra 20 percent and offering up an animal sacrifice for his guilt. (Leviticus 5:14-16) Though not every Israelite could share in the priesthood, everyone could share in the support of the priestly service through the tithe. All of this was included in God's law on tithing. Therefore, it fitted the circumstances of that ancient people. But does it fit the circumstances of people today? More importantly, are Christians commanded to tithe?

A few years after the resurrection of Jesus, uncircumcised non-Jews were converted to Christianity. "It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses," some Jewish Christians contended. (Acts 15:5) Others did not agree. So Jesus' apostles and other experienced Christians met in Jerusalem to discuss the issue. They wanted to learn God's will. Did he require Christ's followers to keep the Law of Moses, which included tithing? Experiences were related showing a change in God's dealings with non-Jews, and this was verified from God's own prophetic Word. (Acts 15:6-21) What was the decision?

The meeting came to a unanimous conclusion. Christians were not to be burdened with the Law of Moses. There were, though, a few "necessary things" that must be obeyed. Was tithing one? The inspired decision read: "The holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication." (Acts 15:25, 28, 29) Interestingly, God's law on tithing was not listed among the "necessary things" for Christians.

Later, the apostle Paul explained that God's Law covenant with Israel had been abolished by Jesus' death. (Colossians 2:14) . there has been a change of law that now involves "the law of the Christ."--Galatians 6:2; Hebrews 7:12. The apostle Paul ,Though working hard in the formation of one congregation after another, never appealed for payment in the form of tithes. Rather, he was willing to cover his own expenses by working as a tentmaker on a part-time basis. (Acts 18:3, 4 ) couldn't the preachers of today do the same ?

Jesus Christ was the most generous man to walk this earth. "Practice giving," he said, "and people will give to you. ... (Luke 6:.38) Are there restrictions here? No. Christians are encouraged to give generously, which may even be more than a tenth" IF" they can afford it.--Luke 18:22; Acts 20:35. On the other hand, a Christian might suddenly be faced with some urgent expense, perhaps due to an accident or sickness. To give a tenth of his salary under such circumstances might deprive members of his family of the necessities of life, would be unchristian.--Matthew 15:5-9; 1 Timothy 5:8.

Christian giving is voluntary. It takes into account that each individual has different circumstances in life. "If the readiness is there first," the Bible says, "it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have."--2 Corinthians 8:12.

How much, then, should you give? As the Bible urges: "Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." (2 Corinthians 9:7)

Tithing was a provision of the Mosaic Law covenant to support Israel's temple and priesthood. For Christians today, according to the Bible , it is neither commanded nor necessary.

-- Posted by blueanjell on Wed, Feb 11, 2009, at 12:34 AM

As things have gotten harder for my family as it has for almost everyone, we made a commitment last year with God on how much we will give every week. This is regardless of how much money we have. We have continue to up the amount every month. I have see God work on our behalf and bless us more now than we have had in the past. True, we may not have as much in material things, but those things aren't as important to us anymore. We find happiness in Him. He has brought us closer as a family and given us wisdom on things that we didn't have before. I think its more about trusting Him and showing that you are commited and full of faith. God doesn't just need our money. He needs our time and consideration for others. Everyone has a part in God's kingdom where they can contribute. Just because you not financially able to tithe doesn't mean that use are useless to God.

-- Posted by honda14 on Wed, Feb 11, 2009, at 9:13 AM

I am not opposed to giving to God, what I used to spend on booze, I now sow into different ministries.

I am just opposed to browbeating the church into giving for then it turns into works.

The money should go to help the widows and the orphans, and the members of that particular church.

-- Posted by michaelbell on Thu, Feb 12, 2009, at 5:06 AM

The money should go to help the widows and the orphans, and the members of that particular church.

-- Posted by michaelbell on Thu, Feb 12, 2009, at 5:06 AM

michaelbell,

I think you have said that well. The "church" is fulfilled by regaurding those things in high order.

A lot of widows and the orphans, and the members of any church could be taken care of with what the "pretty buildiing" cost. Leave it to us humans to mess up the beautiful first century church that fulfilled those needs.

This morning I caught up on some project sources that had buildings of which they were wanting bids. I guess reading your comments made me notice the large number of "church" buildings that were in the process of preparing to build. Most were from 5 million dollars and up. I could not help but think how many widows and orphans could be helped with that kind of funding.

You kmow, it is possible to have a 10 million dollar church and never have a church.

By the way, I received a book that I had ordered a couple of weeks ago. It was Ancient Christian Commentary on the books of Galatians, Ephesians, and Phillippians. It contains commentaries by Jerome, Augustine, Chrysostom, Theodoret, Origen and many more. I believe it is part of a 27 volume series. I thought you might want to use it in the information and learning center at the visually perceived "church" for the actual spiritually conceived "church".

-- Posted by parkerbrothers on Thu, Feb 12, 2009, at 6:34 AM

I hope you don't mind me posting this link here, but I think that this a very informative, biblical view on giving. This is the second part of two part series by John MacArthur. I think that everyone who has posted an opinion on giving would do well to read this. This piece certainly brought some conviction to my heart. May you be blessed as I was as I studied the scripture and teaching. Here is the link: http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/130...

-- Posted by Midnight Rider on Thu, Feb 12, 2009, at 8:20 AM

those who made the comment that God doesn't need money have hit the nail on it's head , so to speak . After all God owns the world -what does he need with money ? That being said ,tho, money is needed for expenses . but there again if you can't give money --give of your time . help clean the building,mow the lawn, pick up someone who has no transportation , go help someone who's sick, or in other ways need help. yes we can contribute in other ways than giving money ....From times of old Jehovah has permitted men and women to contribute of their own free will --money, or material wealth, to the support of his work on earth. If this were not so, the widow mentioned at Luke 21:1-4 would not have dropped her two coins, her last mite, into the treasury chest or contribution box at the temple, causing Jesus to say she gave more than all the other contributors.

-- Posted by blueanjell on Thu, Feb 12, 2009, at 8:29 PM

God desires us to be WILLING to give, but He also desires our relationships to be right as well...

Matthew 5: 23-24 says "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift."

How many times have we sat in church, begrudging something against someone and yet smiled and dropped in our offering? As in everything that involves worship of the Holy God.. we must come before Him with a clean heart. This is an everyday - every minute - every second - process. I have a friend who always began his prayers beseeching God to "clean him up". A lesson we could all heed!

-- Posted by bkpow on Fri, Feb 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM

bkpow,

Very well said!

-- Posted by honda14 on Fri, Feb 13, 2009, at 8:54 AM