Changing To Be Popular!

Michael there is a excellant book out that I think you would enjoy reading, it is called Pagan Christianity, by Frank Viola. It is very eye opening about some of the "old ways" and where the church got some of it's customs and habits. Some are biblical, some are not.

It really opened my eyes and answered alot of questions i have had of why the modern church does some things when they are so obviously not scriptural based.

But be forwarned if you are indoctrinated in a belief system of a church, this book will shake you up, and test those man made beleif systems. Which i think every christian believer needs.

Michael just teach what the bible says and you shouldn't go wrong.

I haven't attended a church service in years except to attend funerals, and even then, the preachers lie.

Then again, if I did attend, they would more than likely throw me out.

Perry Stone is awesome, isn't he?

I personally think we have a lot of "social christians" in today's society.

Perry Stone I believe is more on target with scripture than any preacher walking today.

We do have a lot of"social Christians"

today who use the Church to make contacts or business deals.

Him and John Hagee are the only two I watch on television.

Where do I begin? one is the churches acceptance of sin such as homosexuality, pre- marital sex, abortion, trying to explain ones sins instead of leading them out of sin.

Instead being a light they stumble hand in hand in the darkness with rest of the world.

People like Joel Osteen and others have gotten away from the cross and the blood and gone to cotton candy and fuzzy ducks.

Minor things such as cellphones going off in church and deals being made between members.

Worrying more about the ones across town, state or the world than its own members.

Letting sin stay in the church when the bible plainly gives instructions on asking them to get right or leave.

Preachers worrying more about being popular and making that paycheck and overlooking a few minor or major things in order to stay employed.

In other words there is a lot of ear tickling going instead of preaching line upon line and precept upon precept.

I wish Perry Stone and John Hagee would start a school and teach a few of these so called preachers and pastors something.

Mind you none of us are perfect and we do sin, but the church is the place you are supposed to go to learn and hear how to overcome that sin and to recieve the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

When I grew up in church it was not about feeling good , but about striving to be good.

It ain't no social club!

Then they must be doing God's work if they step on your toes!

michaelbell,

These guys are not stepping on my toes. I don't even listen to them. The charismatic and preacher centered worhip they lead does nothing for me and I find their theology rather flawed.

One day you are going to realize we all sin, we all fall short, and that DOES include those that attend any church. You can't just say 'throw them out'...no one would be there. Of course, we all know you are hung up on just a FEW sins and want to pick and choose who stays and who goes.

And regarding doing business at church. Business never leaves many of us and who better to do business with than other like minded individuals.

sometimes michaelbell confuses church services and klan meetings. in his world, they are so much alike.

You know....we are to be like Jesus. Hate the sin, but love the sinner. A sin is a sin, simple put. But we should strive to be like Him. The only person I should worry about pleasing is Him and let me tell you.....I strive to do just that. A lot of people get upset when religion is brought up. Well....I am so proud that I am not religious. It is a RELATIONSHIP! I am so in love with Jesus and who He is! Thats how it should be. Simple....true....pure....Man is the one who created the religious practices. God says to come as we are and He still accepts us. But once you know Him, you become a new creation and the old is passed away. I get excited talking about Him. God is so good!

I DON'T CONDEMN THEM, I POINT OUT THE SIN TO TEM AND TELL THEM THERE IS FORGIVNESS, AND TRY TO PREVENT THE ONES WHO ARE ON THE FENCE ON THEIR CHOICES, BUT ALAS FOR SOME THERE IS VERY LITTLE HOPE.

You must be racked with guilt and remorse all the time. You are the only one who is going to be saved in your mind. To bad you've never been to school to learn the vocation of being a preacher. People like you give religion a bad name.

michaelbell,

Shame on you! You do not know what is considered women's or men's clothes?

Just like the churches you claim are changing things to fit the occasions, the designers are making men's clothing to look like something the gay would wear and women's clothing to look like a business man or cowboy.

Men's shorts are baggy pants cut just below the knees making them look like skirts and women wearing blue jeans to run in.

Moses wrote that book in the bible so there must have been a difference in men and women's clothing.

I just threw that scripture in to wake every one up. That was a law back in Moses's day up til Christ came. But now today's Christian isn't under those laws anymore.

The laws have not been done away with by any means, but born again Christians aren't bound by them, because they are suppose to be righteous.

Back in the day,the worshippers of false gods would try to tap into the "power" of whatever-they-weren't instead of relying on God to help them make the most of who they were.

A woman might don a fake beard or a man might assume the guise of a pregnant woman.

Today,we can be guilty of the same thing.

We bleach our skin,we get airbrush tans.we curl our hair,straighten our hair,try to look older if we are young and younger if we are old.

We buy into that oldest lie that we are impotent and worthless unless we distort and deny who we are.

Compare that to the message of the Holy Spirit that declares that we are each a unique manifestation of the Lord.

He shows a facet of Himself through us that will never be seen if we deface or obscure it.

Rather than struggling to be anything but what we are,we are urged to accept the redeeming power of the Lord and become ourselves for the first time.

Through God,we remove the taint of sin and,by following His will,we fulfill our destiny according to the gifts we've been given.

God has never been obsessed with fashion.

The designs we can put on and off are insignificant to Him.

He cares about our wearing the whole armor of God.

It is always a good fit.

It never goes out of style.

There will never be an occasion when it is inappropriate.

When we became sinners,we hid from the Father and started worrying about our wardrobe.

When we are infused with Christ's righteousness,we seek the Lord to have His wisdom and His company.

We don't obsess over our appearance or what others look like because we strive to find Christ in them and in ourselves.

We want our spiritual garments to be unstained but ,otherwise,our clothes are not a priority.

We pick things that are functional and comfortable and we choose things that are modest because we respect ourselves and the God we serve.

We don't have to be gaudy to impress or dowdy to efface ourselves.

(Doesn't that sort of "humility" smack of arrogance?)

We let our attractiveness come from the soul out rather than anything external or derived from Man.

When we,like the lilies of the field,let ourselves be glorified in being exactly who and what we were created to be,then we "walk in beauty."

When we take on the countenance of He who became ugliness for our sake,then we can have the peace and confidence that others try to obtain through material things and human conventions.

Let the enemy waste his time with hemlines and sumptuary laws.

Even in their best finery,his people remain slaves.

Those who focus on Christ and let everything else follow from that will be equipped to rule even in rags.

The world is too inconsistent and arbitrary to make matching its whims a priority.

When we conform to the nature and will of Christ alone,then the wiser portion of the world will seek to emulate us and gain what we have.

That one,perfect standard will be be unchanging and all we'd ever need or desire.

Forget about making the folks in the pulpit and the pews and the streets comfortable.

Do and say what God tells you and you'll never have to worry about whether you're being politically correct or whether you're being stern enough to match a patron's "party line."

God doesn't check with the opinion-brokers.

He doesn't even ask us what we'd prefer Him to say.

He just gives us the truth and helps us deal with it.

God makes his yoke easy to carry but He does it by strengthening the asses-not whittling down the yoke until it's at the point of breaking in two.

You aren't meant to act or react in response to us.

Listen to what God says.

Apply His reason.

That will be sane and loving enough to meet the needs (if not the prejudices) of everyone.

Sometimes,like Jonah,we may hear something from God that's different from the approach we would take toward the same people or issues.

But,not only is it easier to deal with one Lord versus hundreds of would-be bosses,He has an unnerving but welcome habit of being right.

What should a Church service be? What was it when Jesus was on earth? A day spent in the presence of God.

Mt 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

Mt 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

Mt 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance

What the Churches need is a Shepherd, who not only talks the talk, but walks the walk. JUST LIKE JESUS.

If the Churches motive is only to be popular, then they will recieve their reward. The question is will the people find faith when they come?

A large crowd does not indicate the motives only the effectiveness of what is being offered.

Consider this;

1co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

1co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

1co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

1co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

As far as subjects being off limit I know of none. All sins that provoke the wrath of God should be discussed along with the only cure or atonement that will appease the coming wrath of God.

World Outreach Church in The Boro is a really good church and IF I was to go to a institutional church again it would probobly be that one... but abusive controlling "pastors" have left me with (and our family) a sick sour taste.. because that is not Christ as we know Him... what a sad representation, and no wonder people do not want to go to "church."

I think I know the incident you are talking about Lesa, but I still like Rod Parsley, from what I hear of World Outreach, they raise fuzzy ducks and feed cotton candy, and do a lot of ear tickling, not my ideal of a church.

Preacher Bell,

Looks to me like a real church with members and everything, just isn't the right business to get into today.

Your Damned if you do and Damned if you don't.

Start a church and raise fuzzy ducks and feed cotton candy, and do a lot of ear tickling and you are bound to make enough money to stay in business and pay the preacher from the donation of all the continuing sinners.

Or start a church that doesn't allow any of that lovie dovie stuff nor cater to the wickedness of the Christians who confess they are all sinners and come short of the glory of God and only preach the truth to them and Hell Fire Damnation!

You would get the word out, but to who?

Most Christians would leave your church in a minute to hear those famous Unique-Lies they have been taught for so many years.

If the Preacher won't leave, the church will put him out and get one who will preach what they want to hear.

What is a Preacher to do???

Gen. 18:19

I know him, That he will command his Children And his Household after him, And they shall keep the way of the Lord.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As the Great God, who at the Beginning said, Let Us make man after our Image, hath made man a Sociable creature, so it is evident, That Families are the Nurseries of all Societies; and the First combinations of mankind. Well-ordered Families naturally produce a Good Order in other Societies. When Families are under an ill Discipline, all other Societies being therefore ill Disciplined, will feel that Error in the First Concoction.

To Serve the Families of our Neighborhood, will be a Service to all our Interests. Every serious Christian is concerned, That he may be Serviceable in the World; And many a serious Christian is concerned, because he sees himself to be furnished with no more Opportunities to be Serviceable.

But art thou not a Member of some Family? If that Family may by thy means, O Christian, become a Well-regulated Family, in that point thou wilt become Serviceable; I had almost said, Incomprehensibly Serviceable.

They that have the Government of some Family, do make up no Little part of this Great Assembly. And, Sirs, are there any of you, that would forfeit that Honorable Title, of all the Faithful, The Children of Abraham? Give your Attention, ye Children of Abraham, while I set before you, the Example of your Father for your imitation.

Our Glorious Lord-Messiah, is here going to Communicate unto Abraham some of His Heavenly Counsels. And we have a Text before us, that assigns a Reason for that gracious Communication. The Reason is, the care which this Good man, would thereupon take to bring up his Family in the Fear of God.

In this Text there are some Remarkable Things; and things that some Wise men have often remarked. There was an Excellent man, sometimes a Preacher of the Lord Jesus Christ, in this very place; whose custom it was, not only to Read a portion of the Scripture before his Prayers with his Family, but also to Infer and Apply brief Notes out of what he Read. He professed, That he found none of all his weary Studies in Divinity, so profitable to him, as this one Exercise, for the Rare and Rich Thoughts, which he therein found himself supplied withal, And he Declared, "that he looked on it as an accomplishment of this very word; Shall I hide from Abraham, the thing which I do? I know him, that he will command his Children, and his Household.

Moreover, You may here Observe a most comfortable Connection, between, He will, and They Shall. Say's the Lord, He will Command his Children, and They shall keep the way of the Lord. It seems, If every one that is Owner of a Family, would faithfully Command, and manage those that belong unto him, through the Blessing of God, they would generally Keep His Way, and His Law.

I find a famous Writer in the Church, therefore thus expressing himself; "If Parents did their Duties as they ought, the Word Publically Preached would not be the ordinary means of Regeneration in the Church, but only without the Church, among Infidels: God would so pour out His Grace upon the Children of His people, and Hear Prayers for them, and bless Endeavours for their Holy Education, that we should see the Promises made Good unto our Seed."

We will now Dismiss these Reflections; and Repair to that Grand Case, which hence offers itself unto us.

The Case

What May Be Done by Pious Parents, to Promote the Piety and Salvation of Their Children?

The Case Inquires, What may be done? You will take it for granted, that the Answer to it will tell you, What Should be done? For you will readily grant, that in such an Important Case as this, All that May be done, Should be done!

In the Case We Inquire after what is to be done, by Pious Parents. Other Parents will take no due Notice, of the Injunctions that God has Laid upon them concerning their Children.

Parents, If you don't first become yourselves Pious, you will do nothing to purpose to make your Children so.

Except you do yourselves walk in the Way of the Lord, you will be very careless about bringing your Children to such a Walk.

It is not a Cain, or a Cham, or any Enemy of God; that will do anything to make his Children become the Children of God. The Psalmist in Psal. 34:1,4,11, could first say I will bless the Lord and I sought the Lord, and then he says, Come ye Children, and I will teach you the Fear of the Lord.

O Parents, In the Name of God, Look after your own miserable Souls; How should those wretched people do anything for the Souls of their Children, that never did anything for their own?

In the Case, we Inquire, after what is to be done by Parents for their Children. But let it be Remembered, That our Servants [others in our home] are in some sort likewise our Children. Our whole Household, as well as the Children that are our Offspring, are to be taught the Way of the Lord. An Abraham will have his Trained Servants. We read concerning a certain Person of Quality, in 2 Ki. 5:13. His servants came near and spake unto him, and said, My Father.

Let not those of my Hearers, that are without such Invaluable Blessings of God, as Children, count themselves unconcerned in our Discourse, if they have any Servants under them. A considerable part of what is to be done for our Children, I pray, Masters, think, as we go along; Think, without our particular inculcation, whether nothing. This may be done for your Servants: and, God make Eliezers of them for you!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attend Now To The Counsils of God

I. Parents, Consider the Condition of your Children; and the loud cry of their Condition unto you, to Endeavour their Salvation! What an Army of powerful Thoughts, do at once now show themselves, to beseige your Hearts, and subdue them unto a just care for the Salvation of your Children!

Know you not, that your Children have precious and Immortal Souls within them? They are not all Flesh. You that are the Parents of their Flesh, must know, That your Children have Spirits also, whereof you are told, in Heb. 12:9. God is the Father of them; and in Eccles. 12:7. God is the Giver of them.

The Souls of your Children, must survive their Bodies, and are transcendently Better and Higher & Nobler Things than their Bodies. Are you sollicitous that their Bodies may be Fed? You should be more sollicitous that their Souls may not be Starved, or go without the Bread of Life.

Are you sollicitious that their Bodies may be Cloath'd: you should be more sollicitious that their Souls may not be Naked, or go without the Garments of Righteousness.

Are you Loath to have their Bodies Labouring under Infimities, or Deformaties? You should be much more Loath to have their Souls pining away in their Iniquities.

Man, Are thy Children, but the Children of Swine? If thou art Regardless of their Souls, truly thou dost call them so!

One of the Ancients, namely Cyprian, has a pungent comparison for this matter; Pray, Consider; (said that Great man) He that minds his Childs Body more than his Soul, is like, one, that if his Child and his Dog were like to be drowned, should be sollicitous to save his Dog, but let the Child perish in the water.

How deaf art thou, that thou dost not hear a loud cry from the Souls of thy Children in thine Ears, Oh, my Father, my Mother, look after me!

But more than so; Don't you know, That your Children, are the Children of Death, and the Children of Hell, and the Children of Wrath, by Nature: And that from you, this Nature is derived and conveyed unto them!

You must know, Parents, that your Children are by your means Born under the dreadful Wrath of God: And if they are not New-Born before they die, it had been Good for them, that they never had been Born at all.

The law of equity was in Exodus 21:19 If one man wound another, he shalt cause him to be throughly healed. Your Children are born with deadly wounds of Sin upon their Souls; and they may Thank you for those wounds: Unjust men, will you now do nothing for their Healing?

Man, thy Children are dying of an horrid poison, in their Bowels; and it was thou that poison'd them. What! Wilt thou do nothing for the succour [help]! Thy Children are thrown into a Devouring Fire; and it is from thee that the Fiery Vengeance of God has taken Hold of them. What! Wilt thou do nothing to Help them out!

There is a Corrupt Nature in thy children, which is a Fountain of all Wickedness and Confusion. The very Pagans were not insensible of this Corrupt Nature; they styled it our Congenite [congenital] Sin, and our Domestick Evil, and cried out, with Tully, "Simul ac Editi sumus in Lucem, ac suscepti, in omni continue pravitate versamur.

The Jews have been yet more Sensible of this Corrupt Nature; they have Stil'd it, our Evil Frame and the poison of the old Serpent; and This they understand by The Enemy, so often mentioned in the Scripture; And, The Heart of Stone and, the Wicked that watches the Righteous.

Will not you that are Christians, then show your Christianity, by Sensibly doing what you can, that your Children may have a Better Nature infused into them?

What shall I Say? I may say, The Time would fail me to mention a thousanth part of what might be said. But, in short: Is it not a sad Thing to be the Father of a fool?

Alas, man, till thy Children become Regenerate, thou art the Father of a Fool; Thy Children are but the Wild Asses Colt! I add; would it not Break thy Heart, if thy Children, were in Slavery to Turks, or Moors, or Indians?

Devils are worse than Indians, and Infidels: till thy Children are brought home to God, they are the slaves of Devils.

In a word; Can thy Heart Endure, that thy Children, should be Banished from the Lord Jesus Christ, and Languishing under the Torments of Sin among Devils, in outer Darkness throughout Eternal Ages?

Don't call thyself a Parent; Thou art an Ostrich [they care not for their offspring]. Call not these, the Children of thy Bowels; thou hast no Bowels! I will not say, that Zipporah call'd her Husband, A Bloody Husband. But all the Angels in Heaven call thee, A Bloody Father, and A Bloody Mother; and are astonished at the Adamantine Hardness of that Bloody Heart of thine; and those Heartstrings that are Sinewes of Iron!

II. Improve the Baptism of your children, as an obligation, and an encouragement unto you, parents, to endeavour the salvation of your Baptised little ones.

Of your children, you may say, with Jacob, in Gen. 33:5 These are the children that God hath graciously given to me. Now, will not you heartily give back those children to God again: their Baptism is to be the sign and seal of your doing so.

You generally bring your infant children unto the Baptism of the Lord: I suppose, it is because you are satisfied, that the children of believers were in the Covenant with God, in the days of the Old Testament; and, that the children of believers then had a right unto the initial seal of the Covenant, and, that in the days of the New Testament they have not lost this priviledge.

Well, but when you bring your children to the Sacred Baptism, what is it for? Oh, let it not be done, as an empty formality; as if the Baptism of your children were for nothing, but only a formal and a pompous putting of a name upon them.

No, but let the serious language of your souls, in this action, be that of Hannah, in I Sam 1:28: I have given this child unto the Lord, as long as he lives, he shall be given unto the Lord.

I find in the private writings of an holy man, who died in this place, not much above a year ago; That the day before one of his children was to be Baptised, he spent the time in giving up himself and his child unto the Lord, and in taking hold of the Covenant for both of them, and in praying that he might on the morrow, be able in much faith and love and Covenant obedience, to do it, at the Baptism of the Lord. Oh, which he writes it is not easy, though common, to offer a child unto God in Baptism.

Sirs, when you have done this for your Children, you have a singular advantage to plead for the fulfillment of that word upon them in Is. 44:3 I will pour my Spirit upon thy Soul, and my blessing upon thy offspring. You may go before the Lord, and plead, Lord, Was not the Baptismal water poured by thy command upon my children! Oh, do thou now pour upon them the heavenly grace, which that Baptismal water signified.

And now, no sooner let those Children become able to understand it, than you shall make them understand what the design of their Baptism was. Parents, I am to tell you, that if you let your Children grow up, without ever telling them, that, and, why, they were Baptised into the Name of the Lord, you are fearfully guilty of taking the name of the Lord in vain.

It was the manner of an excellent minister, upon the Baptising of a child, solemnly to deliver the child into the hands of the Parents, with such words as those, here, take this child now, and bring it up for the Lord Jesus Christ, I charge you.

God from Heaven speaks the like words to you, O Parents, upon all your Baptised Children. And that you may bring up your Children for the Lord Jesus Christ, you must as soon as you can, let them know, that in Baptism, they were dedicated unto Him.

Show them that when they were Baptised, they were listed among the servants and soldiers of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that if they live in rebellion against Him, Woe unto them!

Show them, from Matthew 28:19 &20. That since they are Baptised into the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, they must observe all things, whatsoever the Lord Jesus Christ, has commanded them.

Show them from Romans 6:4, that since they are Baptised, they are Buried with Christ in baptism, and must live no longer in sin, but be Dead unto all the Vanities of the World.

Show them from Galatians 3:27, that since they are Baptised, they have put on Christ, and must follow His Example, and be as He was in the World.

Show them from I Peter 3:21, that being Baptised, they must now make the Answer of a good conscience, to all the proposals of the New-Covenant: and God propounding to them, shall my Christ be thine, and wilt thou be His? They must conscientiously answer, Lord, with all my heart!

Put this very solemnly unto your children; My child, shall God the Father, be thy Father? Shall God the Son, be thy Saviour! Shall God the Spirit, be thy Sanctifier; and are thou willing to be the servant of that one God, who is, Father, Son, and Spirit?

Leave them not, until their little hearts are conquered unto that for which they have been Baptised. It has been the judgment of some Judicious men; that If infant baptism were more improved, it would be less disputed. Oh, that it were thus Improved.

III. Instruct your children in the great matters of Salvation; Oh, Parents, do not let them die without instruction.

There is indeed, an Instruction in Civil Matters which we owe unto our Children. It is very pleasing to our Lord Jesus Christ, that our Children be well formed with, and well informed in the rules of Civility, and not be left a Clownish, and Sottish, and Ill Bred sort of Creatures. An Unmannerly Brood is a Dishonour to Religion.

And, there are many points of a Good Education that we should bestow upon our Children; they should Read, and Write, and Cyphar [arithmetic], and be put unto some Agreeable Callings; and not only our Sons, but our Daughters also should be taught such things, as will afterwards make them useful in their places. There is a little Foundation of Religion laid in such an Education. But besides, and beyond all this, there is an Instruction in Divine Matters, which our Children are to be made partakers of.

Parents, Instruct your Children, in the Articles of Religion; and acquaint them with God, and Christ, and the Mysteries of the Gospel, and the Doctrines and Methods of the Great Salvation.

It was Required, in Psalm 78:5 He commanded our Fathers, to make known to their Children, that the Generation to come might know, who should arise and declare them to their children, that they might set their Hope in God, and keep His commandments.

It was required in Eph. 6:4 Fathers, bring up your children in the Nurture and Admonitions of the Lord. Would you have your Children to be Wise and Good? I know not why you should expect it, unless you take abundance of pains, by your Instruction to make them so.

There was a Wise and Good son, who gave that account how he became what he was; in Prov 4:3,4. I was my Fathers son, and he taught me. O Begin betimes, to Tell your Children who is their Maker, and who is their Saviour, and what they are Themselves, and what is like to become of them; and by no means let them want [lack] that Advantage in 2 Tim 3:15 From a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto Salvation.

Cause them to look often into their Bibles, and here and there Single out some special Sentences from those Oracles of Heaven for them to get into their Memories. And for the better management of their Instruction there are especially two Handles, to be laid hold upon; the one is, a Proper Catechism, the other is the Public Ministry.

Be sure that they learn their Catachism very perfectly; but then content not yourselves with hearing them say by Rote the Answers in their Catachism; Question them very distincly over again about every clause in the Answer and bring all to it so plain before them, that by their saying only, Yes, or No, you may perceive that the sense of the Truth is entered into their souls.

And then, what they hear in the Evangelical Ministry, do you Apply it unto them after their coming Home; Confer with them familiarly about the Things that have been handled in the [proper and true] Ministry of the Word: go over one Thing after another, with them, till you see they have got clear Ideas of it; Then put it unto them, Are not you now to Avoid such a thing; or perform such a thing! And must not you now make such and such a prayer unto God? Bid them then, go do accordingly.

Hence also, 'twere very desireable, that you should watch all opportunities, to be instilling your Instructions into the souls of your little Folks. They are narrow-mouthed Vessles, and things must be drop after drop instilled into them. It was required in Deut. 6:6,7 The words which I command thee, Thou shalt teach them Diligently unto thy Children, and shalt Talk of them, when thou sittest in thine House, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou sittest down and when thou riseth up.

How often in a week, are we Diverting ourselves, with our Children in our Houses? There thy stand before us; There is nothing to hinder our saying some very profitable thing for them to think upon; well, can you let fall Nothing upon them, that it will be worth their while, for them to think upon?

What, Nothing of God, and Christ, and of another World, and of their own Souls, and of the Sins that may Endanger them, and of the Ways which they may take to be Happy? Doubtless, you may say something.

And who can tell? It may be after you are gone to behold the Face of the Lord Jesus Christ in Glory, these your Children will Remember Hundreds of profitable Instructions, that you have given them; and Live upon them when you that gave them, are Dead.

With Two Strokes I will clench this advice. The one is that in Proverbs 22:6 Train up a Child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not Depart from it. The other is that in Prov 17:25. A Foolish Son is a grief to his Father, and a bitterness to her that bare him.

IV. Parents, with a Sweet Authority over your Children, Rebuke them for, and Refrain them from, everything that may prove prejudicial unto their Salvation.

Sirs, You can do little for the Welfare of your Children, if once you have lost your Authority over them. Would you bring your Children to the Fear of God? Your character then must be that in I Tim 3:4 One that ruleth well his own House, having his Children in subjection, with all gravity.

Don't by your Lightness and Weakness and Folly, suffer them to Trample upon you; but keep up so much Authority, that your Word may be a Law unto them. Nevertheless,

Let not your Authority be strained with such Harshness and Fierceness, as may discourage your Children. To treat our Children like Slaves, and with such Rigour, that they shall always Tremble and Abhor to come into our presence, This will be very unlike to our Heavenly Father.

Our Authority should be so Tempered with Kindness, and Meekness, and Loving Tenderness, that our Children may Fear us with Delight, and see that we Love them, with as much Delight.

Now, Let our Authority, effectually keep in our Children, from all their unruly Exorbitancies and Extravagancies. If we let our Young Folks grow Head-Strong, and if we grow Afraid of compelling them to the Wholesome Orders of our Families, we have even given them up to Ruin. God brought that Son to an Untimely and a Terrible End, of whom its reported in I Kings 1:6 His Father had not Displeased him at any time, in saying, Why hast thou done so?

I beseech you, Parents, Interpose your Authority to stop and check the Carrier of your Children, when they will be running into the paths of the Destroyer.

Gratify them with Rewards of Well doing, when they Do well; but let them not be gratified with every Ungodly Vanity, that their Vain Minds may be set upon.

Wherefore keep a strict Inspection upon their Conversations; Examine, How they spend their Time; Examine, What Company they keep? Examine, Whether they take no Bad Courses.

Be not such Foolish Enemies to yourselves, and your Children as to count them your Enemies, that shall friendily advise you of their Miscarriages. That wretched Folly, is a very Frequent One!

When you Find out their Miscarriages, effectually Rebuke them, and Restrain them. Incurr not the Indignation of Heaven, once Incurred by a Fond Father, in I Sam 3:13; I will Judge his House forever, for the Iniquity which he knoweth; because his Sons made themselves vile, and he Restrained them not.

Ah, Thou Indulgent Parent; if you canst not Cross thy Children, when they are disposed unto that which is for the Dishonour of God, God will make thy Children to become Crosses unto thee.

Sirs, When your Children do amiss, call them Aside; set before them the Precepts of God which they have broken, and the Threatenings of God, which they provoked. Demand of them, to profess their sorrow for their fault, and Resolve that they will be no more so Faulty.

Yes, there may be occasion for you, to consider that Word of God in Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his Rod, hateth his son, but he that loveth him, chasteneth him betimes; and that Word in Proverbs 19:18 Chasten thy son while there is Hope, and let not thy soul spare for his Crying; and that word, in Proverbs 23:13,14. Withold not Correction from the Child; for if thou beatest him with the Rod, he shall not Die; Thou shalt beat him with the Rod, and shalt deliver his Soul from Hell.

But if it must be so, Remember this Counsel; Never give a Blow in a passion. Stay till your passion is over; and let the Offenders plainly see, that you deal thus with them, out of a pure Obedience unto God, and for their true Repentance.

One of the ancients, has this Ingenious gloss In the tabernacle, Aarons Rod, and the Pot of Manna, were together; so (says he) when the Rod is used, the sweetness and goodness of the Manna must accompany it: and Mercy be joined with Severity. Let me leave that premonition with you, in Proverbs 29:15 A child left unto himself, bringeth his Mother to shame.

V. Lay your Charges upon your Children; Parents, Charge them to Work about their own Salvation.

The Charges of Parents have a great Efficacy upon many Children; To Charge them vehemently, is to Charm them wonderfully.

Command your Children, and it may be they will Obey. Let Gods commands be your commands, and it may be your Children will obey them.

Lay upon your Children, the Charges of God, as David once upon his, in I Chron 28:9 My Son, know thou the God of thy Father, and serve Him with a perfect heart, and with a willing mind; if thou seek Him, He will be found of thee, but if thou forsake Him, He will cast thee off forever.

Now, Sirs, You will do well, to single out some singular Charges of God, and calling your Children one by one before you, Lay those Charges upon them, in the Name of the God that made them, and obtain from them, if you can, a promise that they will observe those Charges, with the Help of that God. I will set before you, three or four of those Charges.

Let one of your Charges upon your Children, be that in I John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we should believe on the Name of His Son Jesus Christ.

Charge them to carry their poor, guilty, ignorant and polluted and Enslaved souls unto the Lord Jesus Christ, that He may Save them from their Sins, and Save them from the Wrath to come.

Charge them, to mind how the Lord Jesus Christ Executes the Office of a Prophet, and a Priest, and a King, and Cry to Him, that He would Save them in the Execution of all those Blessed Offices.

Let another of your Charges be that in Hag 1:5,7 Thus saith the Lord of Hosts, Consider Your Ways. Charge them to set apart a few minutes now and then, for Consideration; and in those minutes,

Charge them to Consider, what they have been doing, and what they should have been doing, ever since they came into the World, and if they should immediately go out of the World, what will become of them throughout Eternal Ages.

I have read of a Dying Parent, who laid this Charge upon his wild Son, That he would allow one quarter of an Hour every Day to Consider on something or other, any Thing, as his Fancy led him. The Young men having for some while done so, at last began to consider, why his Dying Parent should lay such a Charge upon him. This brought on so many Devout Thoughts, that before long, in the Conversion of the Young man, the Desire of the Dying Parent was accomplished.

Oh! If you could Engage your Children to Think Upon Their Ways, there would be Hopes of their Turning to God.

But, Let a Third of your Charges, be that in Matthew 6:6 Enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father that sees in secret.

Charge them to retire for Secret Prayer, every Day that comes over their Heads, Talk with them, till you see, that they can tell, what they should Pray for: and then, often Charge them to Pray every day; yea, sometimes Ask them, Do you Remember the charge I Laid upon you?

Ah, Parent, thy children will do well, while it can be said, Behold, They Pray. And thy House filled with thy Childrens Prayers, would be better accommodated , than if it were filled, with all the Riches of the Indies.

Let a Fourth of your Charges be That, in Proberbs 9:6, Forsake the Foolish and Live.

Charge them to avoid the snares of Evil Company; Terrify them with Warnings of those Deadly Snares.

Often Repeat this Charge unto them, That if there be any Vicious Company, they shun them, as they would the Plague or the Devil.

Often say, My son, if Sinners entice thee, consent thou not."

Often say, My child, walk with the Wise, and thou shalt be wise, but a Companion of Fools shall be destroyed.

Oh, Do Not let the Beasts of prey, carry away thy Children alive.

Shall I add; it is here intimated, That an Abraham, is to Command his Children, very particularly, about, The Way of the Lord. The Way of the Lord, is the Way of his Right, Pure, Instituted Worship. Well, then, Command your Children, that they do not Forsake the Holy Institutions of the Lord Jesus Christ, and Embrace a Vain Worship, consisting of things that He never Instituted.

There are some clauses in the Second Commandment, which intimate, That if Parents would see the Mercies of God upon their Children, they must Charge them, to Worship God, only in those Ways of Worship that God hath appointed.

Thus keep Charging of your Children, while you Live. And if you are capable so to Do, Do it once more with all possible Solemnity, when you come to Die. The words of a Dying Parent, will probably be Living Words, and Lively Ones.

When our Excellent Mitchel was a Dying, he let fall such a Speech as This, unto a Young Gentleman, that Lodged in his House, My Friend, as a Dying man, I now charge you, that you don't meet me out of Christ in the Day of Christ. This one Speech, brought into Christ, the soul of that Young Gentleman! Truly, if your Dying Lips, may utter such Dying Words unto your Children, who can tell, but they may then be brought into Christ, if they were never so before!

But, lest you should have no opportunity to Speak in a Dying Hour, why should you not Write such things, as you would have them to Think upon, when you shall be Dead and Gone? An unknown deal of Good, may your Children reap, from the Admonitions, that a Dying Parent may Leave unto them.

VI. Parents, be Exemplary:

Your Example may do much towards the Salvation of your Children, your Works will more Work upon your Children, than your Words; your Patterns will do more than your Precepts; your Copies than your Counsels.

What was then said unto Pastors, may very fitly be said unto Parents, in Titus 2:2, In all Things show thyself a pattern of good works; and in Timothy 4:12 Be thou an Example in Word, in Conversation, in Charity, in Spirit, in Faith, in Purity.

It will be impossible for you to infuse any Good into your Children, if you appear void of that Good yourselves. If the Old Crab go backward, it is to no purpose, for the Young One to be directed to go forward: Sirs, Young Ones, will Crawl after the Old Ones.

Would you have your Children, well principled with the Fear and Faith of God? Mind that passage, in Acts 10:2, Cornelius was a devout man, and one that Feared God, with all his House.

Mind that passage in Acts 18:8 Crispus Believed on the Lord, with all his House. It seems, the whole House, is like to do, as the Parents do. It is as Austin [Augustine] expresses it, the ususal cry, Nolumus esse meliores quam patres, We will be no Better than our Parents, If the Parents will make their Cakes to the Queen of Heaven, the Children will kindle their Fires for them.

Justin Martyr somewhere Inquires why the Prophet Elisha imprecated the Revenges of Heaven upon the Children that mocked him, when they hardly understood what they did? and he answers, The Children Learned their wicked Language from their Parents, and now God punished both of them together.

Parents, let your Children see nothing by you, but what shall be commendable and imitable. Be able to say unto your Children, My child, follow me, as you have seen me follow Christ.

Let them from your Seriousness, and your Prayerfulness, and your Watchfulness, and your Sanctification of the Lord's Day, be taught, how they should walk and please God. You "Bid" them well; "Show" them How!

VII. Prayer, Prayer, must be the Crown of all:

Parents, is it your Hearts Desire? Let it be also your Prayer, for your Children, that they may be Saved.

Prayer for the Salvation of any Sinners, availith much. How much may it avail for the Salvation of our Sinful Children? Much availed that Prayer of David in I Chron. 29:19, Lord, Give unto my Son a perfect Heart, to keep thy Commandments.

Parents, Make such a prayer for your Children, Lord, Give unto my Child, a New Heart, and a Clean Heart, and a Soft Heart; and an Heart after thy own Heart.

We have been told, that Children once were brought unto our Lord Jesus Christ, for Him to Put His hands upon them; and He Put His hands upon them, and blessed them. Oh! Thrice, and Four Times Blessed Children! Well, Parent, Bring your Children unto the Lord Jesus Christ; it may be, He will put His Blessing, and Healing, and Saving Hands upon them: Then, they are Blessed, and shall be Blessed for evermore! If Abraham cry to God, O that my son Ishmael may live in thy sight! God will say to Abraham, concerning Ishmael, I have heard thee!

Pray for the Salvation of thy Children, and carry the Names of every one of them, every day before the Lord, with Prayers, the Cries whereof shall pierce the very Heavens. Holy Job did so! Job 1:5 He offered according to the number of all his Children; Thus did Job continually.

Address Heaven with daily Prayers, That God would make thy Children the Temples of His Spirit, the Vessels of His Glory; and the Care of His Holy Angels.

Address the Lord Jesus Christ, with Prayers, like them of old, That all the Maladies upon the Souls of thy Children may be cured and that the Evil One may have no possession of them.

Yea, when thou do cast thine Eyes upon the Little Folks, often in a day dart up an Ejaculatory Prayer to Heaven for them; Lord, let this child be thy servant for ever.

If your Prayers are not presently answered, be not Disheartened: Remember the Word of the Lord, in Luke 18:1, That men ought always to pray, and not to faint.

Redouble your Importunity, until thou speed for thy child, as the poor Woman of Canaan did.

Join Fasting to thy Prayer; it may be, the evil in the soul of your child, will not go out, without such a Remedy. David sets himself to Fasting, as well as Prayer, for the Life of his Child. Oh, Do as much for the Soul of thy Child!

Wrestle with the Lord. Receive no Denial. Earnestly protest, Lord, I will not let thee go, except thou Bless this poor Child of mine, and make it thy own! Do this, until, if it may be, thy Heart is Raised by a Touch of Heaven, to a particular Faith; that God has blessed this child, and it shall be Blessed and Saved Forever.

But is this all that is to be done? There is more. Parents, Pray with your Children, as well as for them.

Family prayer must be maintained by all those Parents, that would not have their Children miss of Salvation, and that would not have the Damnation of their Children horribly fall upon themselves. Man, thy Family is a Pagan Family, if it be a Prayerless Family: And the Children going down to the place of Dragons from this thy Family, will pour out their Execrations upon thee, in the Bottom of Hell, until the very Heavens be no more.

But, besides your Family Prayers, Oh, parents, why should you not now and then, take one capable Child after another, alone before the Lord? Carry the Child with you, into your Secret Chambers; make the Child kneel down by you, while you present it unto the Lord, and Implore His Blessing upon it.

Let the Child, hear the Groans, and See the Tears, and be a witness of the Agonies, wherewith you are Travailing for the Salvation of it. The Children will never Forget what you do; it will have a marvelous Force upon them.

Thus, Oh, Parents, You have been told, what you have to do, for the Salvation of your Children; and certainly, their Salvation is worth all of this!

Your Zeal about the Salvation of your Children, will be a symptom of your own Sincerity. A total want of Zeal, will be a Spot upon you, that is not a Spot of the Children of God.

God will Reward the Zeal. It is very probable, That the Children thus cared for, will be the Saved of the Lord. Your Glad Hearts will one day see it, if they are so: it will augment your Heaven, through all eternity, to have These in Heaven with you.

And let it be Remembered, That the Fathers, are not the only Parents obliged thus to pursue the Salvation of their Children: You that are Mothers, have not a little to do for the Souls of your Children, and you have Opportunity to do more than a Little.

Bathsheba the Mother of Solomon, and Eunice the Mother of Timothy, did greately Contribute unto the Salvation of their famous and worthy Sons.

God has Commanded Children, Forsake not the Law of thy Mother. Then, a Mother must give the Law of God unto them.

It is said of the Virtuous Woman, She looks well to the ways of her Household; Then a Virtuous Mother looks well to the Ways of her Children.

Your Children may say, In sin did my Mother Conceive me. Oh, Then let Mothers do what they can, to Save their Children out of Sin!

And especially, Mothers, do you Travail for your Children over again, with your Earnest Prayers for their Salvation, until it may be said unto you, as it was unto Monica the Mother of Austin, concerning him; Tis impossible, that thy Child should perish, after thou hast Employed so many Prayers and Tears for the Salvation of it."

Now God give a Good Success to these Poor Endeavours!

A sermon by Cotton Mather , a great man of God, oh! to hear someone preach this way today!

Seriously, Cotton Mather? Like in the Salem Witch Trials? ROFL.

Mistaken a few witches? He sent them to die, man. No it never says Burn a witch, or see if they can float. Really, do you think it is "Ok" just in the name of the Bible? You worship this book more than God. That in itself is idolatry.

"he is no different than some of these preachers today who accept everything as ok and wont stand for anything as far as morals go."

Like Perry Stone and John Hagee, right? Cotton Mather had morals by putting women to death over a mere rumor. INNOCENT women to death. Yeah A real moralist. I really think you need to stop reading the puke you look up online and start using your heart.

There are people who actually have found a way to justify the murder of innocents in the support of "stamping out witchcraft?"

I believe he condemned pregnant women as witches also, I could be wrong though.

so a woman putting a innocent unborn child to death is fine and dandy I guess?

-- Posted by michaelbell on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, at 7:44 AM

How was that statement relevant to EM's post?

You really need to get beyond the abortion issue if you want to ever be considered a real minister. It's just not a big deal in everyday ministry.

That is exactly what I mean it is not a big issue , but should be!

Just following winding road that usually passes through Michaels blogs. Generally one or more others matches the absurdity of his comments.

"if you want to ever be considered a real minister."

the last thing you have to worry about is michaelbell becoming a "real" minister. that would require an effort. someone who doesnt even make the minimal effort required to edit out the gross spelling errors in his blog (much less take the time to put together something coherent) is hardly going to put in the effort & study required to become a "real" minister. (but tell me you wouldn't just love to see the looks on the faces of the congregation after that first... and probably last... rambling, nonsensical sermon!)

I hope gotta go and Lazarus had blessed days , at least I have the nerve to stand behind what I write and think unlike most of the readers who stand behind fake names!

EXCELLENT QC!

no one (or at least not me) was questioning if michaelbell had the ability. the question is about drive & effort. i do so miss the old days, when people expected to put forth an effort, and did not expect to just lay back and have god hand things to them. from the look of his writing, michaelbell does not take the time to make an outline, and plan the message he wants to get across when he writes. and it would appear that god does not step in and make his writing coherent for him. likewise, it would seem that michaelbell does not take the time to check his work for gross misspellings, omitted words, run together sentences, or other errors that make writing difficult to read. and it would equally appear that god does not step in and proof michaelbell's work for him either.

like i said, people used to believe that "god helps those who help themselves." but, so many of today's christians are just lazy & want god to do the whole thing for them. god gives them many blessings, but they are too lazy to even do their part in order to collect those blessings.

-- Posted by lazarus on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, at 11:40 AM

Just quickly running your post through grammar and spell check on word reveals this:

No one (or at least not me) was questioning if Michael Bell had the ability. The question is about drive & effort. I do so miss the old days, when people expected to put forth an effort, and did not expect to just lay back and have God hand things to them. From the look of his writing, Michael Bell does not take the time to make an outline, and plan the message he wants to get across when he writes. And it would appear that God does not step in and make his writing coherent for him. Likewise, it would seem that Michael Bell does not take the time to check his work for gross misspellings, omitted words, run together sentences, or other errors that make writing difficult to read. And it would equally appear that God does not step in and proof Michael bell's work for him either.

Like I said, people used to believe that "God helps those who help themselves." but, so many of today's Christians are just lazy & want God to do the whole thing for them. God gives them many blessings, but they are too lazy to even do their part in order to collect those blessings.

There are still some more punctuation errors that could be corrected, but I am just having a little fun.

By the way, "God helps those who help themselves." is not found in the bible.

I thought "God helps those who help themselves" came from John Wesley.

Then,I was told it came from 'Poor Richard's Almanack'.

Now,I understand it appeared in 1698 in an article titled "Discourses Concerning Government" by Algernon Sydney.

No doubt,it was awaiting publication even before the world was formed.

I can imagine some pre-born soul pondering how the Lord would help the helpless yet prompt them to be active in their faith rather than expect God to do all the heavy lifting.

"How I wish I could inspire Man with a quote like that!"

"You will,Oscar. You will."

; >

Michaelbell,

Just for the record, let's say you had your Crossroads church and all the employee's in your church were born again Christians and also all the church members were born again Christians and there were no Abortionists, Homosexuals, murderers, thieves, idolaters, adulterers, fornicators or Liars coming to your church...

What would you teach in your sermons?

First off, I don't believe in all these so called church employees, second off there are always visitors, third inspire the members to hold fast and council them when they fall.

I don't think you'd need to be concerned about "preaching to the choir."'

God knows there are things even the anointed need to hear (especially us altos).

Goats will come if they see the lambs getting sleek and sassy.

(The fact that they can thrive on little and are reputed to even swallow junk like tin cans doesn't mean they'd reject something of real value if it were available.)

Just preach the Word God gives you and don't worry about Man's fads -whether they be "fuzzy ducks","gloom and doom" or "blab it and grab it."

Lead the hungry to fresh water and green pastures and let the Chief Shepherd do any sorting if He needs to separate the lambs from the goats from the alpacas.

(It's not like you'd run out of provisions and would need to ration the Holy Spirit.)

If you don't "feed the need",even the Master's flock won't listen to your voice.

(They'll forage on their own.)

If you just feed their wants,they'll get weak and be hungry even while foundered on their choices.

But,provide for them out of what the Owner of the flock supplies (no more,no less,nothing else) and they will do just fine.

Remember that Jesus started out in a manger.

If what you offer still tastes of Him,it will be sweet enough to satisfy whoever comes along.

Don't be shocked if they even try to knock down the barn doors to get to it!

Many Christains beleive the earth is only 6-10 thousand years old...even though a 24-hour "day" was obviously not created until the 4th "day" according to Genesis...

Is it part of Jesus' plan of salvation that people believe that the earth is a certain age? If it is then people that believe it is 6,584 years old will argue with those that think it is 8,013 years old and one of those groups will be punished in hell for eternity based on whatever the truth is ultimately found out to be upon our deaths. If it is not a requirement for salvation, then to present it as one to unbelievers can cause them to immediately discount any further study and fall to their eternal deaths on this stumbling block. It is just as wrong for another Christian to make it a requirement that others believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old in order to be considered a Brother in Christ.

There are different interpretations of the Bible on many of the finer points that were never at the heart of what Christianity is all about anyways, this is one reason we have so many denominations.

It is the big stuff that is most important...

Mark 12:28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

In other words, don't sweat the small stuff...

I do believe that one of the major points we will ultimately be judged on by God will be how much grace we extended to our brothers in Christ in their beliefs in how they worship God. Making single ancillary points requirements for God's grace, when we all fall short of God's teachings in one way or another seems to be folly.

Romans 3:22-24 (New International Version)

22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

It is hard to comprehend grace this, I know, I have been guilty at different times in my life of judging others based on their beliefs, even though nearly all of those that call themselves "Christians" and study the Word do understand what really is important.

On stumbling blocks...

2 Corinthians 6:2-4 (New International Version)

3We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. 4Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses;

Romans 14:12-14 (New International Version)

12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[a] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.

Finally, the blog has come back to life.

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Wed, Feb 17, 2010, at 11:34 AM

Unique-Lies,

Have you decided yet whether you were going to be in the rapture with "us" sheep or are you still planning on running for cover in the caves with "them" goats?

Michaelbell,

Why do you preach differently on your blogs than you would in your alleged church?

Unique-Lies,

It's either "us" or "them" and "sheep" or "goats'.

"Us" sheep or "them" goats.

It's a two edge sword, not one with three or four edges.

You can't just concoct a third or fourth unique blade.

When the day of wrath comes all mankind left (goats) will hide in the caves.

"Us" sheep will be safe in the hands of the Good Shepherd. We know His voice and follow Him. We nibble in the green pastures while the goats hide in the caves in fear.

Why do you dread and remain terrified of the Good Shepherd? Have you forgotten the Great Promise? Do you not have Faith in Him?

There will ultimately be more "christians" on the wrong side because of their haughty pharisee-like attitudes than there will be "goats" with humility and fear of God. Given a choice the "good" church goer will nearly always side with the pharisees practice of doting over the fine particulars of the "law" instead of siding with the grace and love of Jesus.

Matthew 23:23

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Luke 5:29-31

29 Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them. 30 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, "Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

31 Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

Uniquelies,

Don't blame me for my defining mankind into two allegoric groups. I got most examples after reading the Bible.

------

The sheep on the right side.

or

The goats on the left side.

-------

The wheat in the barn.

or

The tares in the fire.

------

Saved by an inputed righteousness by Grace through Faith.

or

Lost by a self righteousness believed earned by works of own.

-------

Desiring to see His scarred hands and back.

or

Desiring to show him your scars and works.

-------

Looking up in anticipation.

or

Looking down in despair and dread.

-------

Running to Him at the rapture.

or

Hidng from Him in the caves.

-------

Bearing good fruits of the Holy Spirit such as Peace, Joy and Assurrance.

or

Bearing bad fruit of the evil spirit such as dread, fear and hopelessness.

---------

I don't find a lot of multiple choices in the Bible I read. I have had Satan tempt me with that concotion but have always been able to recognize the deception when brought forth.

I generally see the Word cutting two ways.

God may know the nature of His creatures too well to allow too many choices.

I heard of a mule that had two bales of hay put equidistant from him on opposite sides.

He was in danger of starving because he couldn't decide which he wanted.

More bales would not have helped matters.

The best we can do is show that one bit of hay is sweet and fresh and the other is moldy,full of sticks and has wire in it that could slice into anyone trying to taste it.

We also need to remember that we aren't so much messed up because we head for moldy straw as we are for walking away from green,leafy,second cutting hay.

The wise mule concentrates more on getting good forage than avoiding dust and blister beetles.

Do you think you could show me the scriptures where mankind is refered to as sheep on the right side and goats on the left side?

Posted by Unique-Lies on Fri, Feb 19, 2010, at 1:46 AM

Sure. I thought you had read and quoted from the Mount Olive discoarse before.

Mathew 25

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And all the people who are alive when Christ returns will "FEAR Him".

Posted by Unique-Lies on Fri, Feb 19, 2010, at 1:46 AM

Not all will fear in the sense you present it.

Perhaps the goats understand and will act with the fear you describe having.

However the sheep understand the meaning of the word fear in a different manner. We understand it to mean reverence or awe of such a Supreme Power.

Get to know Jesus for what He is. You will run to Him in reverence and awe when you do see Him. There is no need to high tale it to the caves with the goats experiencing the fear you describe.

There is a Peace that surpasses all understanding available when your trust shifts from yourself to Him.

Do you actually think God has tested all the people in the bible, but is not going to test you?

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Fri, Feb 19, 2010, at 1:46 AM

Hope you pass all the test you seem to think neccessary. You are putting a lot of trust and hope in your abilities. Good luck. You are going to need it. A lot of it.

Again, I wish you the best with these tests you plan on taking. Either way you look at it, you are relying heavily on "your" performance.

Do you get three chances like Peter? You do realize that God was not testing Peter don't you? But irregaurdless, what if you fail three times like Peter?

What happened to Christ's performance on the cross? What value is it and how do you see it scoring with God?

If Christ's performance is deemed sufficient by the Father and "your" performance deemed insufficient, does "your" performance have such great weight as to nullify and make void the performance of Christ in God's eyes?

Do you really see "yourself' as capable of outperforming Christ?

Are you wanting to sit on the Mercy Seat yourself for yourself?

And again, I wish you the best with any and all your test. I sincerely hope you have the capacity and ability to earn passing scores. You can tell Christ you did it your way and argue all you want that "you" passed the test. I remember reading in Matthew 7 where some thought "they" had passed the test and were told to depart however.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Relying on your own works and deeds for righteousness will fool you. They are nothing but filthy rags and iniquities.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I'm quite comfortable relying on the Work of Christ and the Father's view of them as atonement for my failures. The great schoolmaster (the law) had taught me repeatedly I can not even pass the first commandment as given for any sustained period of time. I need atonement for my transgressions.

Isaiah 53:5

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Don't allow yourself to be deceived so easily into thinking "you" can do it for "yourself".

You have deemed and thus proclaimed Christ ineffective if you do.

Place your Faith in Christ and away from yourself.

Ephesians 2

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

No matter how hard you try to pass the test, no matter how well you think you might pass these imagined tests, you are left literally with nothing to boast of. Absolutely nothing.

Don't get so tangled up in the complexity of some conceived or concocted tests that you forget the simplicity that is in Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:3

3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

God conceived a simple to understand plan of salvation.

Man through the deceptions of Satan attempts to make it complex.

Uniquelies,

Tribulations are only mentioned five times in the book of Revelation. Four of the times are in the early address to the churches. The first time is when John states he is their companion in these tribulations.

Revelation 1

9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in "TRIBULATION", and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The second and third time is when he addresses the church at Smyrna which is headed by his disciple Polycarp who shortly thereafter is burnt on the stake.

Revelation 2

8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9I know thy works, and "TRIBULATION", and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have "TRIBULATION" ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The fourth use of the word tribulation comes in his address to the church at Thyatira

18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great "TRIBULATION" except they repent of their deeds.

The fifth and last use of the word tribulation comes still early on in Revelation at Chapter 7 before even all the seals are opened. This is all before the Day of Wrath. John is being been shown a multitude in heaven so great that no man could number. Notice that the sheep are with the Shepherd. I also hope you notice the green grass the sheep are being fed that I had referenced to you earlier.

Revelation 7

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great "TRIBULATION", and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

All these mentioned tribulations were experienced extensively and primarily by the early church (first 300 +- years). They experienced tribulations like we can only partially imagine and understand and like have not been experienced fully since. John by his own admission was a companion of theirs through these tribulations.

These mentioned tribulations were not and are not a test from God. They are nothing but the workings of Satan on mankind. God does not persecute the Christians. The Good Shepherd does not slay His sheep.

We have not been promised a life free of tribulations generated by Satan.

We have been promised that we are not appointed to the coming Wrath of God.

You seem somewhat confused as to what the Will of the Father is . It appears you think that it means keeping commandments and passing test. Jesus plainly told us what the Will of the Father was in the Gospel of John.

John 6

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John himself explained it in his own words.

John 3

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

These conceived or concocted tests that you refer to is nothing more than the Tribulations that we all have to endure because the rapture doesn't take place until after the anti-christ announces that he is God. It is then that Christ returns and brings his raptured saints with him.

Posted by Unique-Lies on Sat, Feb 20, 2010, at 9:05 PM

Ah. Some forward progress. At last he now sees and acknowledges a rapture.

Hopefully he will understand the timing of it in time to come.

To answer the question on where to find the word rapture, you won't it is a English word used to describe the catching away of God's people, by the way, you won't find the word trinity or millennial reign either but those terms are used on a regular basis. Thank you for your support Gail.

Add on...

Christians need to remember that Satan can not take their life if God doesn't want him to. Like the story of Job. Satan could only do what God let him do to Job.

As a Christian, if you have faith and belief and talk to him everyday, you don't have to worry about Satan taking you unless God allows it to happen. That is why we should not fear the Tribulation period, but have faith that God will watch over us.

First, let me repeat my Question. You didn't seem to understand the very simple Question I asked you about Adam and Eve!

Posted by Unique-Lies on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, at 12:59 AM

Only God knows the condition of their heart and the full story. That type judgement is left for Him.

I do though appreciate the beautiful act of propitiation demonstrated by God for their sin.

Exactly! Satan tempts the Christians and even kills them. What earthly reason would Satan have to persecute the evil? Satan wants to condemn the Christians and enlist them in his army. He doesn't need to put his devils through a tribulation period, only the people who claim to be Christians and opposers of his dictatorial regime.

Posted by Unique-Lies on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, at 12:59 AM

Unique-Lies,

The tribulations John spoke of have been going on for almost 2000 years. John was a companion of fellow Christians of his day in those intensifying tribulations. You seem to think that the tribulations John speaks of have never started.

Uniquelies,

I could have read the Watchtower if I wanted to hear your concoctions again about soul sleep and the 144,000.

Uniquelies,

I'd be careful sticking my head out from the caves you plan on hiding in.

One of those scorpions might sting you between the eyes when you peek-a-boo. :))

The locusts came from God's Wrath not the tribulation of the Beast.

Posted by Unique-Lies on Mon, Feb 22, 2010, at 8:25 PM

And "we" are not appointed to the Wrath. "We" will have been caught up (raptured). The 144,000 sealed and protected will be left here on earth witnessing to those who have not the seal.

By your own interpretation of the locust being from the Wrath of God it should be easy for you to see that only two groups are left. "Them" (the goats) and the sealed 144,000. The scorpions are commanded to hurt only the ones not sealed. Only 144,000 were sealed before the Wrath was to begin. The angels are commanded to hold back this Wrath until God sealed and protected the 144,000. This happens as the seal openings come to an end and the Wrath is ready to be poured out in increasing measures. "We" Christians are not ignorant of the promise and realize we are in this multitude to great to number in heaven which John is shown at the same time the 144,000 are sealed.

You should be able to see that the sheep have to have been already caught up and taken to the barn unless you have been deceived into believing they are appointed to this Wrath of God.

As far as sleeping in your grave goes...well I can only say....you and the Watchtower Society are entitled to believe as you want.

If you want to find someone to agree with your deception I suggest you associate with others from this Watchtower Society. If the estimates are correct there should be 75-80 other like minded in Bedford County for you to find acceptance with. You're just not going to be able to deceive the vast majority which by the way would be a multitude too great to number since time began.

I personally believe that Adam and Eve, like Abraham, could only be saved by Grace through Faith.

They had to look forward by Faith into the future from them to the coming of the Seed.

We are priviledged to look backward at the Seed that came.

Unfortunately, not as much was revealed in the bible about Adam and Eve's faith like it was about Abraham's faith (whom also had to look forward by Faith). Finally, as I said before, only God can make that kind of judgement to Adam and Eve and only God can choose to leave what He will shrouded in mystery.

On your sleeping theory.....it is yours and the small minority of whom I see deceived to have. The word "sleep" is used in the Bible. However, most of "us" are not ignorant of the context and meaning it comes out of.

Your lone ranger use of verses can be misunderstood by themselves.

Much like the lone verse of Luke 14:26 can be misunderstood.

Luke 14:26

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Small wonder Charles Manson did not use such a verse for his cult.

Cults and denominations are spurned off single verses taken out of context.

Talk to any Jehova Witness, Pentecostal, Church of Christ, Methodists, Latter Day Saint, etc., etc., etc., and it will not take you long to figure out which lone verse or verses they hang their hat on most days.

To believe the soul sleeps in the grave with the decaying body requires you hang your hat on a few lone verses and disregaurd most if not all the rest of the Bible.

This is for everyone EXCEPT Blessed Assurance who doesn't believe these verses in the Bible.

If anyone has trouble understanding the Bible, try this New Living Translation:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...

I do not recommend using the NLT Bible for Proof of all scriptures, but to use as helping to understand scriptures in the KJV or NIV Bibles.

These are passages in the King James Bible and can be verified in any of the other bibles as well, that Sleep and Slept means die, died, dead, death etc., as well as just sleeping. I have only posted scriptures that are referring to death, and not just napping or sleeping normally.

These scriptures are proof that when we die we sleep and know nothing and do nothing.

These scriptures have nothing to do with the watch tower or Jehovah witnesses except that they are the word of God and the JWs believe the scriptures as written.

I don't want everyone to be ignorant because of what Blessed Assurance says.

I encourage everyone to read these verses so you can read them in the context and contents that they were written so you will know Blessed Assurance is only kidding him/herself.

Parkerbrothers, Michaelbell and Blessed Assurance believe you should just ignore certain verses in the bible if these don't agree with the way they believe.

1 Kings 2:10

So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

1 Kings 11:43

And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 14:31

And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David.

1 Kings 15:8

And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 15:24

And Asa slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoshaphat his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 16:6

So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah: and Elah his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 16:28

So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria: and Ahab his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 22:40

So Ahab slept with his fathers; and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

1 Kings 22:50

And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 8:24

And Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 10:35

And Jehu slept with his fathers: and they buried him in Samaria. And Jehoahaz his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 13:9

And Jehoahaz slept with his fathers; and they buried him in Samaria: and Joash his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 13:13

And Joash slept with his fathers; and Jeroboam sat upon his throne: and Joash was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel.

2 Kings 14:16

And Jehoash slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 14:22

He built Elath, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers.

2 Kings 14:29

And Jeroboam slept with his fathers, even with the kings of Israel; and Zachariah his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 15:7

So Azariah slept with his fathers; and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David: and Jotham his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 15:22

And Menahem slept with his fathers; and Pekahiah his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 15:38

And Jotham slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Ahaz his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 16:20

And Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and Hezekiah his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 20:21

And Hezekiah slept with his fathers: and Manasseh his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 21:18

And Manasseh slept with his fathers, and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza: and Amon his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 24:6

So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chronicles 9:31

And Solomon slept with his fathers, and he was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chronicles 12:16

And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David: and Abijah his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chronicles 14:1

So Abijah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead. In his days the land was quiet ten years.

2 Chronicles 16:13

And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign.

2 Chronicles 21:1

Now Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chronicles 26:2

He built Eloth, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers.

2 Chronicles 26:23

So Uzziah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the field of the burial which belonged to the kings; for they said, He is a leper: and Jotham his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chronicles 27:9

And Jotham slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city of David: and Ahaz his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chronicles 28:27

And Ahaz slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city, even in Jerusalem: but they brought him not into the sepulchres of the kings of Israel: and Hezekiah his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chronicles 32:33

And Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the chiefest of the sepulchres of the sons of David: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did him honour at his death. And Manasseh his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chronicles 33:20

So Manasseh slept with his fathers, and they buried him in his own house: and Amon his son reigned in his stead.

Matthew 27:52

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

1 Corinthians 15:20

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Deuteronomy 31:16

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers;

2 Samuel 7:12

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

1 Kings 1:21

Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Job 7:21

And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Job 14:12

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Psalm 13:3

Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Jeremiah 51:39

In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 51:57

And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.

Daniel 12:2

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 9:24

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Mark 5:39

And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Luke 8:52

And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

John 11:11

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Acts 13:36

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1 Corinthians 11:30

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1 Corinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Ephesians 5:14

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 5:10

Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

And here is the PARADISE of death:

Ecclesiastes 9:5-10

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.

9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

IMPORTANT NOTICE:

Job 14:12

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Here Job explains it perfectly to us:

When we die, we sleep. We can not wake up UNTIL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE!

The Bible says when Christ returns the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

It is after the return of Christ that man will finally be awaken from their sleep and Resurrected from their graves. They were/are not in Heaven. They knew nothing and did nothing. They lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more!

How can anyone say these Scriptures do not exist or they are saying we do not sleep when we die?

Most of these scriptures apply to Kings and Leaders, but all mankind sleep also not just Kings.

Mr. Bell, you really stirred up a hornets nest this time, didn't you? "Unique-Lies & Blessed Assurance," you two should buy some time on the local television station. Then you can debate face to face. Oh but wait.....then people would know who you are....right?

Let me tell both of you something. I use my real name, because I AM NOT ASHAMED OF MY LOVE OF THE LORD. If the two of you think bickering back and forth constantly like you do is accomplishing anything, then you are sadly mistaken. I have several Bibles in my home. But there is nothing that can take the place of the good old King James Version. It tells us in the Word, that we are not to add to or take away from the Word of God. Let me give you an example.

(KJV)Deuteronomy 4:2

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

(KJV) Deuteronomy 12:32

What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

(KJV)Revelation 22:18 & 19

(18)For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

(19)And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now!! Let me show you the same verses from the Contemporary English Version (COV). You can plainly see a big difference.

Deuteronomy 4:2

and now he is your God. I am telling you everything he has commanded, so don't add anything or take anything away.

Deuteronomy 12:32

32Obey all the laws and teachings I am giving you. Don't add any, and don't take any away.

Revelation 22:18 & 19

(18)Here is my warning for everyone who hears the prophecies in this book:

If you add anything to them, God will make you suffer all the terrible troubles written in this book.

(19)If you take anything away from these prophecies, God will not let you have part in the life-giving tree and in the holy city described in this book.

Now do you see the difference??? Whats my point?? I have no point, is my point. Instead of arguing about who is right and who is wrong, we need to work together, (hint:that's in there too, I'll let you search it out for yourselves) We are all working toward the same goal. The only difference is, that men like Mr. Bell, (whom I do not know BTW) are not afraid to read and speak the Word for all of Bedford County to read. Like I said, I don't know Mr. Bell, never met the man to my knowledge. But I can tell you one thing. The Lord will look on him with more favor,then He will people who have to hide behind silly,little childish made up names. Bickering with each other over who's toy is the best.

Mark 8:38 (King James Version)

(38)Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

A little advice for the two of you. If you can't play nice, go stand in the corner. Playing this Marco, Polo game of your's is trying on peoples nerves. If you want to play play nice. We all have an opinion, but you two just need to keep your's to yourselves if all you can do is bicker.

Like I said Mr. Bell keep up with what you're doing. Oh btw, I know rapture wasn't in the Bible. Another example of adding to and taking away.

I'm going to tell everyone right now, I would rather go to church with 100 drunks or whatever, then to go to church with 10 people like Unique & Blessed. Nuff said. Let's move on, shall we? Next subject please......

Uniquelies,

No one, including the early church fathers, and going froward up until the last 80 years or so have thought the word sleep meant sleep as you try to convey it.

Only in the last 80+- years have some (mainly the Jehova Witnesses and you) tried to pass this off as a new and unique theory.

I also hear people all the time say..."we laid so and so to rest"....but they are not meaning for you to take it they believe that person is just resting or sleeping in the grave. Saying "someone is at rest now" is just a polite way of saying "they're dead, buried and decaying".

Out of curiousity, and I don't know why I even bother to ask, but are you thinking that someone who is cremated is actually sleeping in the urn on the fireplace mantle?

What if I have my ashes divided equally and placed in four fruit jars, have one buried in a hole in the ground in Pakistan, one placed on the fireplace mantle here at home, one in a closet on the 63rd floor of the Sears building and finally one placed in a satellite orbiting the earth. Where are you thinking I would sleep?

For those of you that are interested in the other related articles on the website Michael quoted you can go to http://www.gotquestions.org/what-happens...

There is an interesting article called "Where did Old Testament believers go when they died?" I noticed that this question was raised here. If you wish to read the article and others related to it, they might provide some additional material for discussion on the blog.

Michael please include the website when you quote an article that you have not written yourself. Gotquestions.org is copyright protected (© Copyright 2002-2010 Got Questions Ministries - All Rights Reserved.) when you see this at the bottom of an article or screen there are limitations on how you may present the contents to others.

Thank you

MrsGailCL,

Very polite post with your name and all, but didn't add anything that hasn't been said before by both BA and myself, MrLarryM AKA Unique-Lies.

I read from the King James Bible because that is the one the Holy Spirit will reveal the word of God from, in my opinion.

I do not add to nor take away from the word of God. If it appears that way to anyone it is because they don't read what I do as the Holy Spirit reveals it to me.

I try to explain everything I post in my own words from the scripture so anyone can follow what I am saying.

Everyone has the same opportunity and is encouraged to jump in and add to the word of God.

That is what we are all suppose to do, come together as the body of Christ. So far there is just two body parts of Christ coming together. No one else seems to be able to agree nor disagree with anything BA or I post. Only thing anyone adds are remarks about us going at it.

Add your knowledge about what we are discussing agree or disagree. I will back down and leave this blog if all I am doing is harassing everyone with the Word of God.

I can leave just as fast as I came.

PROVE ME WRONG and I will admit defeat. As long as the scriptures say what I print in my posts I have to believe they come from God.

I just posted a very long post pasting scriptures word for word on the subject of Sleep and Slept that proves we sleep when we die.

WHAT DO YOU SAY MrsGailCL? Am I lying or is that what the Bible says in YOUR Opinion?

You tell me what they mean if they don't say the kings slept with their fathers when they died, even when they were buried in other places than where their fathers were buried.

Thank you for your reply, MrLarryM aka Unique-Lies.

my bad, I had that aricle written down in some of my notes.

If that is the case Micheal, may I suggest that you always document your source in your notes. Violating copyright laws can have serious consequences.

You have done this several times before and I had hoped that you would have refined your notes to avoid this error going forward.

Please be more careful.

amalphia,

I read a copy right notice last year that quoted a copyright law with it.

It said something like this: You can reprint and use copyrighted material as long as you have no intention of making money from its use and you give the copyrighter credit for the item.

Have you ever come across a copy right notice like this?

I found it very interesting and saved that law on my computer.

Of course, I have the Windows Vista Operating System and what it done with that fire and several others I will never know.

I save things and when I go back to retrieve them I can't find them anywhere. This is the first computer I have ever owned that hates me and deletes my saved files.

I am not telling anyone it is okay to use copyrighted material because I don't have that law and can't find it anywhere.

It was a law something like the spam law that says it isn't spam if you include a way for people to ask to be removed from your mailing list.

Unique-Lies,

propriety = proprietary

Sorry for the typo.

Midnight Rider,

*** You posted: Actually, you are not coming together, you both have polar opposite viewpoints, and you argue the same points over and over, blog after blog.

-{ And yet you do not speak out for the word of God. You would rather condemn us both than to say what God has revealed in your heart about these same scriptures!

It is time for the truth to be revealed not hidden. The truth will be hidden again very shortly when the anti-christ begins his regime. Anything you haven't been taught will be lost forever.

*** You posted: You claim to be obedient to scripture, but by your own admission you have not set foot in a church for many years:

-{ I was always taught that when you go to church you shut up and listen to the preacher. There is no Q&A in church. It is only what the preacher says, just like a judge in a court room.

Why go to a church when you have to remain quiet and not reveal God's word? Can you see me standing up and telling the preacher he is wrong? It is his church and if the people want to believe what he tells them who am I to interrupt?

*** You posted: Yet, you still make the claim that all the preachers preach lies. How would you know.

-{ That one is a simple one! By reading the word of God MYSELF and not just listening to what they say.

They may not preach the same lies but they preach whatever they want to... just like me. I am condemned for it but preachers can say whatever they want to because they learned from a Christian school or college.

What I teach I learned from the revelation of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, not from what some man taught.

When a preacher says there were two Adams or two Eves or both, that is a lie according to the bible.

If a preacher preaches everyone is going to hell unless they come up to the altar and confess their sins... the preacher is lying. If someone does or doesn't go up to the altar and dies, the preacher does a farewell sermon that would mock everything the preacher taught in his church.

If a preacher teaches that he will be in the rapture and reign with Christ for a thousand year, he is confused and not revealing the truth.

If a preacher teaches that we go to heaven when we die, he is lying.

*** You posted: You can answer a question for me concerning a couple of people. You claim that there is no soul or anyone yet in heaven.

-{ that is what Jesus said in the scripture when he was talking to Nicodemus.

John 3:10-13

10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?

11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

So this is proof that no one has ever gone to heaven.

*** You posted: Where is the the thief on the cross? The one Jesus told "today you shall be with me in paradise". Where is he today. Where is he?

-{ The thief is in his grave. His body is decayed by now but his soul sleeps there.

Where is he? Where is Paradise?

Revelation 2:7 (New International Version)

7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Where is this Tree of Life? It is in the new heaven which has not been created yet.

Rev 22:1-2

1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

We see that Paradise is in the new heaven where the Tree of Life is. This new city of Jerusalem hasn't been created yet, so the thief would not be in this Paradise.

So... where is this thief and the paradise he was suppose to "be in" not go to?

This thief was a sinner so he went to hell just like everyone else in the old testament. No one could come out of hell until Christ was crucified and risen.

When Christ died He went to hell and taught the word of God to everyone in hell.

1 Peter 3:19-20

19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison

20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

Jesus went to hell for three days then he was resurrected on the third day. Nothing there about a place called Paradise. SO did the thief go to Paradise or Hell with Jesus?

-{ Paradise is also referred to as the Third Heaven...

2 Corinthians 12:1-4

1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

3 And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows--

4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

2 Corinthians 12:2

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the (D)third heaven.

(D) References Acts 22:17 and that verse references Acts 10:10 which refers the "third heaven" to a "Trance".

Acts 22:17

17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;

Acts 10:10

10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

So "Paradise" is actually a "Trance" or "Suspended Animation" and not a place in space!

When a Born again Christian dies, their soul goes into a trance (or a Deep Spiritual Soul Sleep) until they are resurrected.

*** You posted: Where is Elijah? Please, just tell me where they are today.

-{ Elijah came as John the Baptist and was beheaded. Therefore, Elijah vs John the Baptist is sleeping in his grave waiting to be resurrected in the First Resurrection because he was beheaded for his witness of Jesus, and for the word of God. (Rev 20:4)

Matthew 17:10-12 (King James Version)

10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Mark 9:11-13 (King James Version)

11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?

12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.

13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

Sorry, but I will not answer questions that I can not prove by the scriptures. It is the scriptures that answer questions not me.

No one should believe what I say, but they should believe the scriptures.

Unique-Lies,

John has explained the best "how to" in terms of using another persons material on the internet. In your example, the original source may have allowed for the "not for profit" concept, Then they could reprint the entire article without worrying about copyright infringement. If the copyright allows you to reprint and distribute, as long as you don't charge, then it is okay. But note in your example, they required that you leave the original copyright and source on the document. Even when "not for profit" the original source should always be referenced. If not by law, then at least out of respect and courtesy for the original author.

Midnight Rider,

When you see BA and me arguing, jump in and speak out against the wrongful post. If you don't agree with one or both of us,then just blurt out what you thing the verses mean. That is why I post the scriptures and where they are for everyone to read and discuss with us.

If you disagree with what I am saying say so or say you agree with BA, but don't just say we are boring you, make it exciting and alive with your comments. maybe we are both wrong and need your input. If it is one to one we need a tie breaker.

*** You posted: Are the two viewpoints you hold necessary for salvation? Do you think that your arguments are pointing people to Christ?

-{ No they are not. You must accept Christ as your savior and stop sinning to be saved.

Ba is teaching milk to baby Christians, trying to bring new people to Christ. God will send the new people to Christ by his Grace.

I teach that once you have been born again you must not willfully sin and lose your salvation which BA doesn't believe can happen.

I try to prepare the Christians and non Christians for the end times that are coming. Even Jesus spoke of the end time horrors that must fall upon mankind in the last days, so I am not teaching anything Christ didn't teach when He walked the earth.

*** You posted: So, are you saying Jesus was lying to the thief? He told him:

And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise

-{ You will have to answer that! Jesus died around 3:00p.m. on Friday. 6:00p.m. Friday was the beginning of the Sabbath day, so Saturday at 6:00p.m. would be the end of the Sabbath day. The next morning (Sunday) Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb, but Jesus was gone.

So it breaks down to:

First day= Friday 3:00p.m. to 6:00p.m.

Second Day= Friday at 6:00p.m. to 6:00p.m. Saturday

Third Day= Saturday at 6:00p.m. to Sunday Morning when Jesus was already Resurrected.

This would make up the three days just like you say it would be and not 24 hour days. The Second day being the Sabbath day.

You also posted the Greek definition of: "Today" in the original Greek means "this very day" Paradise in the original Greek means a park, a garden. Undoubtedly, you claim this is not heaven.

"Today" would then mean (in Greek) Friday afternoon, but before the Sabbath began at 6:00p.m. or almost instantly upon death.

"Paradise" meaning a park or garden (in Greek) pretty much doesn't give us any answer at all. There is no park or garden listed in the bible as to where this Paradise is/was except in the New Heaven.

What Jesus said was "in Paradise" not "go to paradise". Therefore it is not a place to go to, but something to be in.

I could not think of a better Paradise than to be in a deep spiritual SLEEP where I don't have anything to do or know or remember. And that is what the bible says. We sleep when we die and know nothing and do nothing.

*** You posted: The body rests and rots in the the grave, and the soul lives.

-{ The Body is laid to rest where it decays in the grave. The Soul lives, but is in a deep sleep where it knows nothing and does nothing nor does it praise God from the grave. It is the Spirit that returns to God in Heaven.

*** You posted: One of the problems you have is that you make no reference of the culture, or the original Greek meanings.

-{ Why would I do that? I read from Bibles which have already translated the Hebrew and Greek into Bibles that I can read and understand.

I read and hear several people who say they go back to the original Greek or Hebrew words and some say manuscripts to get the true meaning of the words that have already been Translated.

If the original Translators didn't get it right, why would I trust someone today is going to know more about Greek and Hebrew Language than the Translators? Makes no sense to me! That is why I rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth and not man.

*** You posted: but I have to believe that you are often deceived by Satan.

I have been told worse than that before. And you are right. We are all deceived by Satan sometimes.

That is why I ask any and everyone to chime in when I post. Make me stop and think about what I am saying.

*** You posted: how could He be also walking on the road to Damascus with the two men?

-{ Are you talking about when Jesus blinded Saul on the road to Damascus? At that time Jesus had already risen and ascended into heaven and came back to change Saul into one of his disciples.

Acts 9:7

7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

*** You posted: Pretty arrogant for a person to claim to have absolute knowledge like that.

-{ I do catch some of the Charismatic Christian sermons on TV and others to see what they are teaching. To say every preacher on earth is teaching lies would be an incomplete study. I know on a whole that most churches teach what they are taught to teach.

You, for example, do not believe what I post right from the scriptures which are not my own words, but the words of God.

If you don't believe what I reprint word for word from the bible, neither are the preachers. Therefore they are not teaching what the word of God teaches.

Even if you don't believe what I just answered you with, I thank you very much for taking the time to ask me to prove what I am saying.

MrsGailCL,

Since you think Satan is doing such a good job with us and you are wanting to go to the next subject, then why don't you close your case here and go to the next subject. Michael Bell has had another one waiting for your comments for a couple days now, titled "The Calling of the Church!"

Before you go though, let me answer your Question!

The Holy Spirit knows the bible better than anyone else, including Satan, Me, BA and all the bible translators and preachers. Of course the Holy Spirit IS God so it doesn't know the Bible better than God, but it was given to us to reveal God's word in a way we can understand it.

That is why we must ask the Holy Spirit to help us understand God's word.

Now go and enjoy Michael's latest blog and learn what the church is suppose to do and what the church really does. Discuss how the church doesn't do the things that they are suppose to and do the things they are not suppose to. Michael has them all listed in order for everyone to easily find and comment on them.

God help us all if I decide to join in on the does and don'ts of his new blog, just begging to be ravished by the word of God.

Case closed...next subject please Mr. Bell.

-- Posted by MrsGailCL on Wed, Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 PM

I think he gave you the next subject three days ago. Here, let me give you the link to click..... http://www.t-g.com/blogs/michaelbell/ent...

Perhaps you could move to it if you can not answer any questions and do not like what you see here?

You really have been of little to no input here on any issues being discussed.

Why not participate constructively and tell us what you think about one of the many questions raised?

Does the "soul sleep" in the grave with the body or does it "return to the Father"?

Tell us what you believe and how you came to that conclusion.

MrsGailCL,

I would be happy to go to the next subject and probably will sometime soon.

You have to understand though, if I do go to the next subject, I will just ruin it too by being cocky and thinking I know all the answers to all the questions, just to find out that I am wrong and BA is right. Then I will have to tell BA why he is wrong and you will have to chime in and tell us to stop it.

BA and I are speaking what is in our hearts about the word of God even thou we do disagree on most things.

If you thought I was telling everyone a lie, wouldn't you want to try to prevent people from hearing it by telling them what you believe the truth is, or would you just sit back and say nothing?

I don't want you to leave Michael's blogs. I enjoy talking to everyone.

If anyone thinks, I think I know it all, they are wrong. There is very little I know about all the things in the bible.

However, what I know, I know until someone can convince me that I am wrong.

All you can really say about me is that I hide my identity for my family's safety, because they don't believe the same things I do, and they are not actively into God's word as strongly as I am.

By using God's words alone, I have been referred to as a devil, angel of the devil, devil's messenger, deceiver of the truth, a dope addict on drugs, snorting drugs, an anti-Christ, a liar, an occult, and a think he knows it all. I don't wish any of this on my family and friends, but the world can persecute me all it wants.

AND... I have one of the Strongest Faiths in what I believe about the word of God.

I challenge everyone who reads these blogs to make me prove what I am saying is the true word of God or prove I am wrong.

My intentions are not to belittle anyone but to prove to them that what I say is written in the bible. If I was just talking to be talking, I would not be able to prove what I say with scriptures.

True, what BA and I do is against the bible teachings about arguing, but we are trying to prove our knowledge is correct. BUT... lest anyone forget... we will all be judged by every word that comes out of our mouths.

If we have received the gift of knowledge and don't speak it, what good is it. If we don't tell others it will be taken away from us and given to someone who WILL speak it.

Luke 19:26

26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

I take this verse out of context/content, but I believe it applies to the word of Knowledge or any other gift from God, not just money.

MrsGailCL, you are a Unique woman. Don't let anyone take that away from you. Stand up for what you believe.

You have been chosen and Ordained by Christ as one of his disciples. Go out into the world and give testimony of Christ and witness for God.

The Kingdom of God is within you. Since God dwells within YOU, He who is in YOU is greater than he who is in the world. If Christ be for you who can be against you? Through Christ all things are possible.

BA,

You posted: Speak for yourself. I do not think it is wrong when I correct you. :))

I too do not think it is wrong to correct me, but to deny the scriptures in the bible that I use as proof of what I say to be true, is denouncing the word of God to convince yourself and others that I am wrong in my testimony of biblical events, beliefs and etc..

Just curious, but why would you post a laughing emoticon at the end of that sentence???

Sorry, but my words are no more than letters on a page, not to be considered to have any validity.

I have always posted scriptures proving what I teach but no one on these blogs can interpret these scriptures any differently. They always go to some other scripture taken out of content to say whatever they want to say without any acknowledgment of the original verses. It's like the verses don't exist.

I have opened myself up to everyone to prove that the scriptures I use don't mean what I say they do.

In other words, bringing my little piece of the body of Christ to all of you to try to come togther and build his body.

One, two maybe three people even respond and usually with scriptures that have nothing to do with what I have presented. A few just want me to shut up so they can get the latest gossip on the blog or see who is calling who what, while the rest of the world just sits there quietly in pain not wanting to say yay or nay. They are neither hot nor cold.

It's like Jesus once said, "Follow me; and Let the dead bury their dead".

OMG! I took that out of content didn't I?

BA,

What happens to us when we die?

I know that my soul will be sleeping, but what about all the good people who go up into heaven?

The first resurrection only consists of those souls who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands, so all those nice people in heaven haven't been resurrected yet, because the first Resurrection hasn't taken place yet.

So do these nice people in heaven get resurrected in heaven, then have to come back to earth to reign with Christ for a thousand years here on earth?

What happens in this new life? Do we have ever lasting life and an eternal body in the new heaven or what....?

Midnight Rider,

So with my words being no more than letters on a page, not to be considered to have any validity, you are asking for more?

*** I posted: "I know on a whole that most churches teach what they are taught to teach."

-{ Do they not go to colleges and schools and retreats to be taught by man what to preach so they can get their diploma or License to preach?

*** You posted: I don't believe your interpretation of them.

-{ then explain them to me so I will understand them but don't go to some other source than the Holy Bible to explain them. The bible has all the information we need.

If the Bible was inspired by God and written by God's inspiration, there is no need for further Greek and Hebrew Translations. The Bible is inspired by the holy spirit, so the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to us without going outside the bible.

Let me ask you this. Is your Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries written by God or inspired by the Holy Spirit? Can they be read today after years of republishing them to be acute and in harmony with God's word?

The bible has been translated in every language of the world, I'm guessing, and in America we have several bibles translated in English. All of these bibles had to be translated from the original Hebrew and Greek languages. Who better to know the true meanings of these Hebrew and Greek words than the Translators back then.

Has the Hebrew and Greek words changed meanings over the years? I think not and if they have I would prefer the original meanings.

-{ Okay, let's take the word LOVE for example. We all know that there is not just one strong feeling when we think of or say Love. there is all kinds of love and degrees or depths of Love, but they all come under love. So to me Love can translate to love in any depth. It is the Holy Spirit that reveals the depth of the Love.

The same applies to the word Hate! And many other words as well. No problem to me!

*** You posted:

You see, where our word "if" is being used, it is actually replacing two different Greek words in verses 2,3,& 7, with the word in 2 & 7 being the same. In addition, in verse 3, the word "and" is used here to modify the word if.

-{ I'm am not being smart here, but I don't know what you are saying!

What two Greek words is "if" replacing in verses 2,3,& 7, with the (what) word in 2 & 7?

I am always saying "if" and have to stop and change it to "since", because I know it will or does happen.

There is no footnote in any of my bibles to signify the word "if" may have been a Greek word meaning if or anything else.

If anything, it is confusing to say the least and I don't know why you would even bring that example up.

*** I posted: "What Jesus said was "in Paradise" not "go to paradise". Therefore it is not a place to go to, but something to be in."

-{ You replied with: In all three passages the Greek word "paradeisos" is used. This word means park or garden. This is also a word that we use to describe heaven. So, if we are in something, we are in a park or garden.

-{ I never use the word Paradise to describe Heaven, except in the New City of Jerusalem like the bible calls it, "Paradise of God".

Even the Garden of Eden was never called a Paradise in the bible.

You might find the word Garden in your Greek book saying the Paradise of Eden but not in the Bibles I have read.

I also posted to you: ""Paradise" meaning a park or garden (in Greek) pretty much doesn't give us any answer at all. There is no park or garden listed in the bible as to where this Paradise is/was except in the New Heaven."

So now you will have to go back to your Greek book and find out just where in heaven this Greek Park or Garden is located because it isn't mentioned at all in the bible except in the new heaven.

Perhaps maybe the Astronauts can tell us where this Park or Garden is in Outer Space?

If, there's that word again, Paradise is in the current heaven, what do you think is going to happen to it and the people there when it disappears like a scroll rolled up?

*** You posted: I think you are well meaning, but I also think you are misguided. I pray that you would consider expanding your study materials. You would at least have more credibility.

-{ I am like a parasite. I let you do all the research and I will take the credit for it.

-{For example;

You now know that Paradise is a Park or Garden, but it all ends there. So the best answer is to say it is in heaven because no one has been to heaven so we can't prove it wrong.

Doesn't your Greek or Hebrew books tell you where this Park or Garden might be that could be read in the bible?

So God HAS hidden the truth from you! You have no idea where this Paradise is that Jesus promised the thief would be in that very same afternoon!

I can't help you there, because my words are no more than letters on a page, not to be considered to have any validity.

In my warped mind, I know the answer and satisfied with it. All the answers are in the bible when you rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal them to you.

*** You posted: Oh, as for the John 141-7 passage, my understanding of it now would read something like this, verse 2 & 7, keep the standard English meaning of if. Verse 3, when I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again...

-{ That is good! Just remove the words that don't make sense and you have it.

The word "if" used in all three verses doesn't change the verses at all. Jesus is only tell his disciples that if he goes...

That should only make the disciples have more Faith that Jesus was going to go.

We know that Jesus did go, so the if doesn't have to be read in that sentence because it was already answered.

The killer answer is... Jesus was just talking to his disciples at that time. He is definitely coming back to get them and take them to their places in heaven... when the time comes.

One more important fact must be revealed... Everything Jesus spoke of was for the future and not the here and now, that everyone today and in the past thought he was telling us.

Midnight Rider,

*** You posted: Oh, as for the John 141-7 passage, my understanding of it now would read something like this, verse 2 & 7, keep the standard English meaning of if. Verse 3, when I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again...

You replaced "And if" with "When". I don't remove the "And if" nor replace it with "when", your are!

I am saying it reads okay with the if in it.

When I said -{ That is good! Just remove the words that don't make sense and you have it.} I was being sarcastic because you want to change the words to read like you want to believe them.

You posted: So, according to you, just take the word out right?

-{ No!

*** You posted: So, what is it going to be, Jesus was just talking to the disciples or, everything he said was for the future?

-{ In this case, Both! Jesus was talking to his disciples, but he wasn't returning to get them until he returns which He hasn't returned yet!

*** You posted: I am sorry, did I mention Eden? No, I did not.

You spoke of Paradise meaning Park or Garden, so I mentioned Garden of Eden. Since it was a Garden, what was the Greek meaning for Garden... a Paradise?

If Paradise means Park or Garden - Garden should mean Paradise! That would make it Paradise of Eden. MOOT!

*** You posted: You may not use the Word Paradise to describe heaven, but the bible does. The writers of the originally used the exact same word only 3 times in the New Testament.

-} I posted: "{ I never use the word Paradise to describe Heaven, except in the New City of Jerusalem like the bible calls it, "Paradise of God"."

-{ Since the word Paradise in all 3 verses mean the exact same thing, then they are all pointing to the "New City of Jerusalem or the New Heaven"! This New Heaven has not been created yet. The current Heaven must vanish like a scroll rolling up before the New Heaven comes down from heaven.

No one goes to this Paradise when they die.

-{ So you tell me where the dead go if you don't believe what I say.

*** You posted: Just exactly what does that mean? If he goes does it mean there was a possibility that he might not?

-{ When Jesus spoke it, I would say he did for a reason.

The "And if" doesn't change the fact that Jesus is going, or the fact that Jesus is going to prepare a place for them, or that Jesus is returning to receive them, because...

At the time it would mean He may or may not, but in our time, we know he went to heaven, so we know that He has promised to prepare a place and return for them.

By taking the words "And if" out and changing them to "when", you are changing the whole sentence to a positive "yes" Jesus is going. That isn't what it is saying, but we know the outcome of this promise is a yes.

*** You posted: So, it is quite possible that we have developed better understand of the languages and their nuances, including the English language, which, I might add, is also changing.

-{ We have a better understanding of the original Greek and Hebrew Language that they used and spoke in the 1st and 2nd centuries?

If we upgrade their Languages and writings to our present day language, then what would be the purpose of going back to the original manuscripts and Strong's Concordance?

*** You posted: Jesus says: If any man come to me and hate not his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters yea and his own life also he cannot __ be my disciple. Luke 14:26 KJV

In my own words it means if you think more of your family members or even yourself than you do God, you don't qualify to be his disciple.

We are to Love God with ALL of our heart, mind and soul and love everyone else as much as we love ourselves.

It does not mean we have to hate them, but must be able to turn our backs on them when Christ calls to follow him.

Just as I said before. I am more active in God's word than my family, but I still love them and wouldn't want them to be harmed by my witnessing.

It does not mean we have to hate them....

Posted by Unique-Lies on Fri, Feb 26, 2010, at 11:55 PM

Unique-Lies,

At least you are starting to see that the English language is too simple and lacking in comparison to the languages the original text were written in to give adequate meaning to in many cases.

Love and Hate are perfect examples of such words. They are simple English words that are used in translations to emcompass a wide range of more complex and intense words of the original manuscripts. Sleep and rest are more examples.

I would take the advise Midnight Rider has given you and study more in depth if I were you to gain a better understanding of the words Satan deceives you with. Also after learning a more exact meaning of the words you should put them in context and leave things in order so as not to create confusion.

The Gospel is such Good News for the Sheep.

It also nourishes the Trees to enable them to produce the Fruits of Joy and Peace.

He showed how an important and inspirational act goes by and is missed by most when reading those passages. Jesus in verse 17 lovingly lowered His request of Peter down to meet Peter's ability instead of asking Peter for the third time to come up to His standard.

- Posted by Blessed Assurance on Sat, Feb 27, 2010, at 9:28 AM

I like that point. Jesus knows us better than we know ourselves-and still loves us. He does not hinder us from coming to him. Thanks for posting that.

It is a one on one situation that does not include family members or your preacher who lied to you.

-- Posted by Unique-Lies on Sat, Feb 27, 2010, at 10:31 AM

What did the preacher lie to me about?

Midnight Rider,

Sorry I missed this one earlier.

You posted: What did the preacher lie to me about?

I was speaking of the future in that sentence.

We will all come face to face, one on one with Jesus and we won't be able to ask our family members to save us nor be able to tell Jesus that is what the preachers taught me. We will be responsible for what we learned or didn't learn. We will have to "Hate" them more than we do God or "Love" them less than we do God! God must come first in all things.

To clarify that, not that the Christian loses salvation, but our works are judged to see if they were performed for and in Christ's name, or if we did them for the praise of men. The ones done for Christ will stand, the ones done for the praises of men will be burned up.

-{ Don't let Blessed Assurance see you say you are judged by your works. He/She says that is blasphemy against Salvation, even though the bible tells us we are judged according to our works.

The ones done for Christ will stand, the ones done for the praises of men will be burned up

-{ That is just common sense!

Why would you even think I didn't know what love and Hate meant in the bible? I didn't need the Greek definition for Love and Hate nor the Strong's Concordance!

Midnight Rider,

Your above post was well said in my opinion.

I personally believe there are rewards for works done in and for Christ.