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Please help me understand Mr. Obama's personal secrecy.

Posted Tuesday, August 11, 2009, at 9:40 AM

I can not control the answers on this question, but I am truly interested in learning solid reasons regarding Mr. Obama not being forthcoming with his personal records.

I have heard or read many of the opposition's reason, but since most Presidents in the recent past have had to share almost all details of their life, why is someone who promoted open government so secret?

Or is it out there? I admit to not knowing everything, so maybe it is, and this is much to do about nothing. Are there documented links to it non-biased websites?

What are solid reasons in support of his actions? I have seen much of the opposition's opinions, but what I have not seen is why his actions are appropriate.

Thanks for your help understanding. I hope we can discuss this without a lot of mudslinging. If it goes that way, we can quickly lose some good facts in all the trash.


Comments
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If there were nothing to hide, wouldn't it be simpler to divulge the records? Many of these questions were asked pre-election, but the liberal base of supporters for Mr. Obama would hear nothing of it.

It is very interesting that Mr. McCain's situation was fully disclosed, but Mr. Obama's was not. Yet, Mr. Obama's was more suspicious than Mr. McCain's.

Another aspect of all this is, why is Mr. Obama retaining highly paid attorneys to keep any of his records secret? Is it true that he has even used campaign funds to pay these attorneys? Is that legal?

I personally am sick and tired of being labeled as a kook, or worse, just because I think Mr. Obama should be held accountable to the nation. If he is indeed unconstitutionally ineligible to serve, then he should be removed from office. This is not a game, although it seems that there is a strata of society that very much thinks it is!

-- Posted by dmcg on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 10:15 AM

These seem to me to be logical questions and I am hoping someone will give us logical answers.

From the rhetoric and hate I have seen in the past for anyone questioning these things, I was hesitant to raise the question again, but I truly want to hear from those who support Mr. Obama.

-- Posted by stevemills on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 10:58 AM

Steve,

I think one of the main reasons that he is able to keep so many secrets is that the mainstream media will not demand answers or ask the hard questions, and there are alot of secrets with this man. Another problem is that if a person asks any questions, someone from the far left will almost always throw out accusations of racism or something foolish like that.

-- Posted by greasemonkey on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 11:54 AM

I have been braced for criticism but will be highly disappointed if no Obama supporters respond. I am truly not trying to bait anyone, or embarrass them.

I am confused, concerned and would just like to hear a calm reason for Obama's actions. Did he not promise open and transparent government?

-- Posted by stevemills on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 12:27 PM

Not a supporter nor a republican, but I don't see where he hasn't shown the documents. Some media says he hasn't shown, some says he has. Which do you believe should be the question? Fox says one thing, CNN says another.

Jon Stewart probably has his point of view which is most likely more truthiness than all of the others. Due to the hilarity and absurdity of some of the media-biased claims. From CNN's love of Obama is God-incarnate to Fox's Obama is the Debil... Jon Stewart looks at all of the angles. He was scared when George W Bush left he wouldn't have anymore fodder; but he was Oh. So. Wrong...

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 3:14 PM

I wouldn't lump Fox all together and say they hate Obama. Certainly, some personalities on there can't stand him, but overall Fox is very fair. It's the best news going, just check the ratings. As for Obama releasing his documents, he certainly is hiding something. I do think he was born in Hawaii, but something on his birth certificate is causing him to not release it, i.e. race and/or religion.

-- Posted by DoubleJ on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 3:45 PM

Ratings != Fact

-- Posted by nathan.evans on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 4:01 PM

DoubleJ I think you're right about it being race A friend of my daughters has a white mother and a black father and on his birth certificate it has caucasian, even though you can tell he's off black decent. The reason for this is the mother is always the biological parent, but the father may or may not be. He wants to be known as the first black president and he wouldn't be because technically he's caucasian. And I also think it says muslim for religion. So thats means you all voted in a white muslim for president.

-- Posted by bellbuckletn on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 5:52 PM

Do they put religion on Birth Certificates? (going to go check now)

-- Posted by Dianatn on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 6:39 PM

hi steve,

hope ya'll werent set back too much in rescuing our mutual friend "stranded" in england...

i planned to just leave her there. surely the horse show meetings would go smoother.

i'm not any sort of obama supporter, but the whole "birther" thing has passed the point of being ridiculous. it has begun to sound like the kid who just keeps asking "why", no matter how deep the explanation goes.

"the sky is blue"

"why?"

"it has to do with the refraction of light."

"why?"

"light has different wavelengths, which we percieve as different colors. the light is filtered or bent or something by the atmosphere and we only see the blue wavelength."

"why?"

i think anyone with kids has played the "why" game at least once. eventually you have to stop answering, because there is no end.

i have seen the birth certificate offered. i only have one birth certificate, and it contains no more information than the one that was shown. do you have more than one birth certificate? does it offer more details than that one? how much proof of birth do you need? should he have his dna tested to prove that the birth mother is really his mother? should it be tested to prove he isnt a horse?

so on one side i have a birth certificate. i have the testimony of the state that it is real. i have the testimony of his family, and of everyone who has known him. on the other side i have speculation, and the refusal to accept any evidence as sufficient.

so obama has just quit answering the same question over and over? isnt it past time?

-- Posted by lazarus on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 6:47 PM

so on one side i have a birth certificate. i have the testimony of the state that it is real. i have the testimony of his family, and of everyone who has known him. on the other side i have speculation, and the refusal to accept any evidence as sufficient.

so obama has just quit answering the same question over and over? isnt it past time?

-- Posted by lazarus on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 6:47 PM

AMEN!!

-- Posted by darrick_04 on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 7:41 PM

FYI: No spot on my Birth Certificate for Religion.

-- Posted by Dianatn on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 7:52 PM

I think our mutual friend has miraculously made it back. Sorry folks, we had a friend's e-mail hijacked and the scammer was asking for money to get back from England. Since we have been talking to this person almost twice a day lately, we knew what the deal was.

Is the report that he had his records sealed a hoax then? I read that college applications, financials, etc were also sealed. No truth?

If so, then the next question is where does one go to get the truth? I can not expect it from either party so.....?

-- Posted by stevemills on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 9:03 PM

I don't believe there's anything wrong with the birth certificate,but it could have been handled better on both sides.

I have always been curious of his past also, there doesn't seem to be any good info on either side. He just seems to be tied up with to many people he shouldn't have been. What amazes me more is the fact that everything wasn't laid out more clearly during the election. Especially considering the fact that our nation loves seeing public figures dirty laundry. I mean we know every breath George W has made since birth, but very little of Obama.

-- Posted by greasemonkey on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 9:58 PM

Steve - I think that maybe this all started when McCain had to be proven to be eligible but Obama got a free pass (procedurally speaking). There are those that think Obama wasn't born in Hawaii. Then there are those that think that, for other reasons, his citizenship wasn't able to have been passed from his mother to him (and I'm not sure what those reasons are). There are even others that believe that since his father was Kenyan, therefore a subject of Great Britain, he was a "dual-citizen" and the United States does not recognize dual-citizenship.

Whatever the reason for people questioning his citizenship, he has spent an enormous amount of money to keep his long form birth certificate private.

Additionally, there would be a Constitutional crisis the likes of which this country has never seen.

As much as I dislike the administration of President Obama, I don't think this country could withstand the fallout if it ever came out that he wasn't actually a naturally born citizen.

-- Posted by Thom on Tue, Aug 11, 2009, at 11:28 PM

President Obama presented his birth certificate in June of last year. It has been certified as real. Check out Snopes.com. All of this is just another gestapo style attempt by the far right to smear the opposition. They do this to avoid any meaningful debate on issues and to vilify their opposition. Take time and check facts and quit watching Faux News.

-- Posted by volfanatic on Wed, Aug 12, 2009, at 12:01 AM

Way to stay classy, "volfanatic".

I believe Steve requested that we discussed this "without a lot of mudslinging".

If you would have studied history a bit, you would have realized that the Gestapo were a force of the ruling party (secret state police), not the people. It's impossible to be the "secret state police" if you don't work for the state.

If you're going to start the name calling, try being more accurate than controversial.

-- Posted by Thom on Wed, Aug 12, 2009, at 12:26 AM

I did not even know this was still an issue. The last I heard anything about it was before the election. That being said, I imagine the sole intent is to distract and divide. As long as the unwashed masses fight over the face of our leadership, our leadership has free reign.

The president could be red or blue, Christian or Muslim, black or white, a citizen of anywhere or nowhere. He could even be a puppet on a string for that matter. As long as you assign the blame (or praise) to him, he has done his job, and the closer to an agitated 50/50 split, the better. My question is who he works for exactly, certainly not "the people" in my opinion.

To me, it makes more sense to examine the actual policies of both parties, and the effects of those policies, as opposed to feuding over which economic model is the best method to funnel our resources upwards. It does not matter if we pay more taxes, choose higher consumer prices or both; the end result is the same. Two sides of the same coin does not represent choice, but if we spend all our time and energy focused on heads and tails, we may not watch the hands too closely.

-- Posted by memyselfi on Wed, Aug 12, 2009, at 5:04 AM

Thanks for the assist Thom. Does everyone feel that Snopes is a credible source? I realize Wikipedia leaves much to be desired, and have heard Snopes referred to numerous times. Watcha' think?

Interesting if this is a diversionary tactic. The more people chasing his records means less looking at his policies, but health care seems to be getting good attention.

I agree that to find true problems in his background would create more than it solves, but it might avoid candidate getting a pass next time. And to the credit of a Republic,there will be a next time no matter who is in office.

-- Posted by stevemills on Wed, Aug 12, 2009, at 7:24 AM

I was giving examples, I wasn't downing any news organization in particular, I was downing them all together. I was being non-biased. If you think Fox News is fair then you haven't been watching Jon Stewart.

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Aug 12, 2009, at 8:20 AM

I agree with Lazarus and memyself.

The problem with Lazarus' analogy and our government is that the roles have been reversed. We the people are the parent and our government leaders are the children. The government should serve us, not the other way around. With that in mind, the conversation should go more like this (which parents can appreciate).

Parent;

"If I let you do this, will you promise to always tell me the truth?

Child;

"Yes"

"Show me your personal records"

"no"

"why"

"cause"

"cause why"

"cause you might get mad"

"why would I get mad"

"Cause"

You get the picture. Like memyself, I believe the whole two party system works like the good cop bad cop ruse to keep the people seperated. Much like a child will try to play one parent against the other to get their way.

The fact is Phillip J Berg has a pending lawsuit against Mr. Obama over his eligiblity as president on this issue.

Mr. Obama ran on the platform of change and transparencie in government. A promise to tell the truth. Yet he hides the truth "cause", "Cause why?"

What is his true agenda? Answer: More government control, more spending, more taxes, more racism. How do I know that? Because that is what he is doing. This is not the change we want or need.

-- Posted by Liveforlight on Wed, Aug 12, 2009, at 8:33 AM

"the next question is where does one go to get the truth? I can not expect it from either party so.....?"

isnt that the number one question? it isnt easy when all the major media outlets have reduced themselves to propaganda centers. of course, there are always those forwarded e-mails. (if i could only figure out how to download those directly onto my garden, i could grow the biggest 'maters in the western hemisphere.)

for myself, i try to look at a variety of sources (altho that does result in getting fruitcake e-mails from both "major" partys), seek out neutral sources if possible, and most of all apply a little common sense. (oh, and always try to remember that the louder someone says something, the less value it probably has). this one just doesnt have any legs. like i said earlier, there is a birth certificate. hey, i have one of those. as a matter of fact, my wife has one, and each of my kids has one. ONE. all this uproar demanding a second birth certificate makes no sense, i dont have two, do you have two? do you know anyone with two? yeah, there are lawsuits. but as it turns out, the people filing those lawsuits file lots of lawsuits. like the ones wanting the government to admit that they are in league with aliens in flying saucers. so this one is pretty easy. one, obama has as much proof of where he was born as i do. two (and more important), i have heard not one shred of this birther stuff from anything resembling a credible source. there are a lot more important issues than the fantasies of a bunch of nut-cases.

-- Posted by lazarus on Wed, Aug 12, 2009, at 6:34 PM

It must be something hereditary. The last time someone named Hussein claimed they had nothing to hide but would not allow public viewing, a war started (Remember Saddam w/ Operation Iraqui Freedom?)

-- Posted by 1ukolsir on Wed, Aug 12, 2009, at 7:13 PM

First, let me say that I do believe that Mr. Obama was born an American citizen. I don't know of any concrete proof to the contrary. However I have every reason to believe he is a card carrying Socialist/Marxist, and that he, along with people like Nancy Pelosi and Harry Ried want nothing more than the government to control every single aspect of our lives. Mr. Obama has repeatedly stated that he does'nt favor a single payer health care system. This is a direct contradiction of what he said twice during speeches given in 2003 when he openly stated that he was a proponent of a single payer, universal health care system. American taxpayers will be required to furnish health care for illegals and pay for abortions. This proposed health care bill is garbage, plain and simple, but you will not get the truth out of any politician that supports it. This administration will also mandate that social security payments be made to illegals, in spite of the fact that they have not paid one single dime into it. For the first time in American history, a president's approval rating has dropped below 50% in his first year in office. Apparently a whole lot of former Obama supporters are now sayiing a very loud OOOPS!, as more truths are revealed about this utterly inexperienced baffoon.

-- Posted by Tim Lokey on Wed, Aug 12, 2009, at 7:41 PM

Are you people insane? Obviously republicans. You can view Obama's birth certificate on line. And if you watched anything but Fox nutcases you would know the truth. Do think the people in Washington would not know if our President was born in the US? This is an old argument and only shows your total ignorance. Of course you probably did elect George W Bush. THE WORST PRESIDENT EVER!!!!

-- Posted by george12 on Wed, Aug 12, 2009, at 10:25 PM

This administration will also mandate that social security payments be made to illegals, in spite of the fact that they have not paid one single dime into it.

- Posted by Tattoos & Scars on Wed, Aug 12, 2009, at 7:41 PM

Can you back that statement up with a single shred of credible evidence?

-- Posted by nathan.evans on Wed, Aug 12, 2009, at 11:38 PM

Getting back to Steve's point,I have a pertinent question. Who is responsible to check the credentials/qualifications of potential presidential candidates?

Do I believe he has a birth certificate? Yes I do! Is it ligitamate??? Do I believe that Washington has done its' job in this matter? NO!

I don't trust them to do anything but take money from the people and spend it on their own corrupt agendas.

It is loose fiscal policy (bankruptcy) that has historically brought about the downfall of government, Democracies or Representative republics in particular.

The change we want is more fiscal responsibility with our tax dollars. Bush had $400B deficit. That was no good!! At least he had 911 to justify some of it.

Obama has over $1.6T deficit 4 times worse!! Is this the change you want?

-- Posted by Liveforlight on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 6:46 AM

The more people defend this guy and his unbelievable reckless policies, the more I have to wonder where this country is headed. It sounds like a bunch of zombies following in lock step behind their master. That's exactly how it sounds.

-- Posted by DoubleJ on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 8:21 AM

BTW in Hawaii, there are 5 different scenarios in which a person can obtain a Birth certificate. One way allows for obtaining one just on the say so of the person seeking it, if the official in charge is satisfied with the application.

Does he have one? Yes,but which one? Some would make him ineligible for the presidency.

Who reviews the application (if there is one) for the job of president. He should have demanded the certified copy which would be public record. Another government official not doing his job? Maybe, maybe not.

All this discussion would go away if the records being withheld were released. If he isn't qualified, then he isn't qualified. I am sure the country would still survive if all the information was released. It would not change who he is.

Regardless of all that, he is now the President and is not being "transparent" as he said in his campaign. So, another politician lied to us to get his way. SUPRISE!

-- Posted by Liveforlight on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 8:30 AM

"Can you back that statement up with a single shred of credible evidence?"

Yeah, see if you can find a Wikipedia entry to backup your claims like some "IT Professionals" on here. :)

-- Posted by Thom on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 9:00 AM

I'm not sure which statement you are talking about or what you consider "credible" evidence.

Hawaii's birth certificate policies are public knowledge and can be found in numerous places on-line or, I suppose, more credible would be to call Hawaii directly and ask some government official.

I personally, don't care much about his birth certificate. I do care about our country being spent into bankruptcy and government control of practically everything, which is where the administration is headed.

-- Posted by Liveforlight on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 9:44 AM

Liveforlight, I do not think Thom was challenging you. I am guessing it was intended for Mr. Evans.

Mr. Mills, I am not so sure that the health care issue is actually getting the attention it deserves. If you ask just about anyone (lay person) what the problem is with health care, I imagine the answer you will get most often is price and/or quality. The debate we currently have raging addresses neither question. We have been given a choice of 2 identical options which will produce more of what we already have, and most people have already lined up on one side or the other, while neither choice is what would be best for the people or addresses the core issues. It appears to be misdirection, framing and false choices - kind of like our elections and most other "important" topics.

-- Posted by memyselfi on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 10:11 AM

Thanks for keeping this a dialogue. My original question was not necessarily just about a birth certificate. His records in general seem to be "locked up" but I get a headache reading legal jargon. so I am looking for a source that translates legal back to common language and does it without "interpretations" which are easily biased.

For example, I tried to read Executive order 13489 signed by Mr. Obama on January 21, 2009. Some interpret this to say he is barring his records from being released, others say this was to remove the secrecy surrounding government.

As I understood, (me, not anyone else) this releases all documents of previous Presidents unless the current President, keeper of the records and Attorney General wants to honor that past President's request for Executive Privilege.

I also see it as ONLY referring to documents generated during the Presidency, NOT personal records prior to it. HOWEVER, I also seem to see where the incumbent (Mr. Obama)retains the right to declare Executive Privilege for HIS records. I presume, his records would become available after his term, but that is not clear.( at least to me)

I think a sitting President has the right to Executive Privilege during tenure and personally think it would be good to be maintained for a defined period after. (maybe 10 years)

The end result of my reading was that this E.O. opened up the past for review, but not themselves. It did not confirm that Mr. Obama was making current government transparent, nor did it seal his personal records.

So where does that leave me? I have eyestrain and did not confirm either side of the reporting.

-- Posted by stevemills on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 12:04 PM

If Mr. Obama's administration is so transparent, then why is it that at every press conference he only answers pre-selected and pre-screened questions? He can't even say good morning without a teleprompter. He's the first President in U.S. history to have his approval rating fall below 50% in his first year. Apparantly there's quite a few Obama supporter now loudly crying OOPS!

By the way, I didn't vote for Bush, nor did I vote for Obama. I'm fully capable of recognizing an inexperienced, bumbling baffoon when I see one.

-- Posted by Tim Lokey on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 6:20 PM

Funny how people are running Bush into the ground declaring him the worst president ever. No president could POSSIBLY be worse than Obama. Why it was just this morning that I heard over the radio that Obama's approval rating is currently at 47%. that really sucks, particularly when he hasn't even had a full year in office. Besides he starts stuttering during speeches because there's no teleprompter to tell him what to say. I have no use for leaders who can't speak plain English without a cue card in some fashion. And he has no leadership experience to speak of. NOW it's all coming out. Personally, I demand an apology from all the morons who voted for him. But I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen. The only thing I can do with my eyes wide open wide is put my seat belt on and hold on tight because I'm about to see one hell of a wreck. And I'm not even responsible for the idiot who's driving it into the ground!

-- Posted by 1ukolsir on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 8:22 PM

Considering the total mess that the country was in when President Obama was inaugurated, it would be unfair to expect that everything would be great six months in. Right now he is trying his best to address a serious issue, but right wing haters are too busy talking about non-issues, half truths, and everything else that has nothing to do with actual problems. Perhaps one day people will realize that nothing is ever going to get done if we don't stop talking about what is not important (think teleprompters) and do start talking about things that actually make a difference to Americans (think health care). Some of the statements made by folks like Rush Limbaugh and comments I have read on this website about President Obama are the most unpatriotic, disgusting excuses for rational thought conceived of by outright fascist crybabies. I'm just glad Obama has four years to prove how worthy he is to this nation. He earned that, and no one can take it away.

You demand? You must have fallen asleep on your toilet seat, your highness.

-- Posted by nathan.evans on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 10:21 PM

You demand? You must have fallen asleep on your toilet seat, your highness.

Considering the total mess that the country was in when President Obama was inaugurated, it would be unfair to expect that everything would be great six months in. Right now he is trying his best to address a serious issue, but right wing haters are too busy talking about non-issues, half truths, and everything else that has nothing to do with actual problems. Perhaps one day people will realize that nothing is ever going to get done if we don't stop talking about what is not important (think teleprompters) and do start talking about things that actually make a difference to Americans (think health care). Some of the statements made by folks like Rush Limbaugh and comments I have read on this website about President Obama are the most unpatriotic, disgusting excuses for rational thought conceived of by outright fascist crybabies. I'm just glad Obama has four years to prove how worthy he is to this nation. He earned that, and no one can take it away.

-- Posted by nathan.evans on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 10:22 PM

I wonder if all who still can not see the lack of experience issue with the current president might have fallen off the seat into the toilet?

-- Posted by Blessed Assurance on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 10:29 PM

Isn't it odd that the only people on here that keep mentioning Rush Limbaugh are the liberals that sit there and whine about us conservatives?

Simply because someone disagrees with the President, they are labeled as "un-patriotic"? Simply because WE have not drank the kool-aid, we're labeled as fascists, or Nazis, or gestapo? Buddy, there is NOTHING more "patriotic" than exercising our freedoms to voice our opposition to the government, than standing up for what WE believe and telling others about it. If you can't figure that out, then you learned ABSOLUTELY nothing in the military.

"I'm just glad Obama has four years to prove how worthy he is to this nation. He earned that, and no one can take it away."

Mr. Evans - Just in case you weren't aware (as Obama obviously isn't) that CAN be taken away.

You see, we have a system of checks and balances in our country (Go ahead and look it up on Wikipedia, I'll wait....Ok, now that you've done what you consider "fact-checking", I'll continue). These checks and balances mean that Congress does NOT work for the President, and the he CAN be removed from office by a thing we call "impeachment" (might as well go look that up too...and don't get distracted by the shenanigans of Bill Clinton...you back?) With 2010 just NEXT year, we have the opportunity to elect some REAL conservatives (not necessarily Republicans). Once this is done, President Obama will have been effectively neutered (Just like Al Sharpton wanted to do).

-- Posted by Thom on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 11:31 PM

Wow Thom, your real sharp. Here's an idea, never, ever speak about what I learned in the military. You understand that shipmate?

-- Posted by nathan.evans on Thu, Aug 13, 2009, at 11:44 PM

Interesting that some would call conservatives fascist.

Let's look at the word fascist.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.c...

"Fascism-Philosophy of government that stresses the primacy and glory of the state, unquestioning obedience to its leader, subordination of the individual will to the state's authority, and harsh suppression of dissent."

***and***

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fasci...

"As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer"

"To maintain high employment and minimize popular discontent, fascist governments also undertook massive public-works projects financed by steep taxes, borrowing, and fiat money creation. "

"Under fascism, the state, through official cartels, controlled all aspects of manufacturing, commerce, finance, and agriculture. Planning boards set product lines, production levels, prices, wages, working conditions, and the size of firms. "

Bank, auto, and healthcare takeovers and wage and bonus caps ring a bell for anyone?

Also remember the world's most notorious fascist was Adolf Hitler whose Nazi Party was known as the "National SOCIALIST German Worker's Party".

Fascism, Marxism, Socialism, and Communism are all ideologies in line with current liberalism.

More government control is always the answer.

Conservatism is all about PERSONAL responsibility and freedom of the INDIVIDUAL.

-- Posted by quietmike on Fri, Aug 14, 2009, at 12:04 AM

Ok quietmike, you got me, I'm a Nazi. Actually I have read the very page that you have quoted and I think that both political parties fit in that box in some shape, form, or fashion. The bottom line is that no matter who we elect, some of the people are going to be happy, some of the people are going to be upset, and some of the people don't care either way. Barrack Obama won the election fair and square and short of Thom's obvious assertion that 2010 could change the game or a highly unlikely impeachment could happen (yeah right), he is our leader and we should give him a chance.

-- Posted by nathan.evans on Fri, Aug 14, 2009, at 12:37 AM

Nathan - Don't EVER call me that, I thank GOD you were never one of MY shipmates, nor in my squadron.

I don't know what they taught you in whatever branch you were in, but when I was in the Navy, they taught us about history...from the day I swore "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic" (unlike YOUR oath which obviously ended with your enlistment, mine didn't have an end date on it) to the day I got out, I was entrenched in Naval history and the history of the United States. Obviously YOU forgot what a true "Patriot" was, or you certainly wouldn't classify those of us with the gonads to stand up and defy un-patriotic.

You're no better than Pelosi or Obama spreading YOUR hate-speech.

As soon as this schmuck gets challenged, he calls up his liberal hordes and the media so that they can sit there and whine and complain because someone said something bad about him. Obama's nothing worse than a spoiled brat that's been used to getting whatever he wants handed to him for a long time. Now that he's gotten enough of you to drink his kool-aid and gotten into office, he is e-mailing you zombies following him talking points for you to get on and use in the blogs.

Keep on drinking the kool-aid, maybe you will all get a free trip to Guyana.

-- Posted by Thom on Fri, Aug 14, 2009, at 12:48 AM

Conservatism is not about personal responsibility or freedom of the individual. Conservatism is about telling people who want to help others that these people can pull themselves up by their own bootstraps when they don't even have any boots.

We have an enormous problem in this country and it didn't begin with the liberals or the democrats or this president. It began during a conservative reign which designed "homeland security" that took away personal freedom of individual rights. So don't go all preachy about how wonderful conservatism is when it has been taken over by a bunch of hate-mongers, fear inducing hypocrites that will tear this country apart.

We have a new president. One who is willing to talk to the people and get feedback, the people are not talking. They are screaming, yelling and being disrespectful. Why? Is it because he is black? He's not worthy of respect? His mother was an American white woman. He is a citizen of this country and he was elected into his position.

We should, as good Christians, do what Christ said, and allow the government to do what it must and remain steadfast in Christ. This president sees a need for millions of people and the thousands more that become unemployed every month(not because of him but because of the economic problems) and these people are without insurance. Hospitals are going under because they cannot continue to treat all of these people. People are losing their homes, their livelihoods and their health because they can't afford medical attention (many until it's too late).

Today, people who are paying for their own insurance (thru jobs or thru their own personal bank account)but are finding the premiums more than their salary or just too hard to afford. So this president is trying to find a way that we can all get health care when we need it like they do in France, Canada, England, and all other countries around the world that care about its people.

Why is this so difficult to understand? Why would this man do harm to his own people? He loves his wife, his children and his country which shows family values and pride in this country.

Everyone who spouts all kinds of hatred towards socialism and marxism (have you read Marx?)are uneducated. The wealthy in our country are already socialists. They have all the money they need, all the health care they need, all their wants and desires are taken care of and met with abundance. Did you know when the wealthy show up at parties and events they are paid to be there? And it isn't a couple of dollars to shove in their jean's pocket. Its thousands. So they just want to keep this little advantage to themselves. Free market? Yeah they have it. Do the rest of us? Clothes jewelry, cars and anything they want is given (gratis) to them because of their position in society.

How many of you have a brand new free car to drive around in, free jewels to wear on special occasions or are paid to frequent bars and nightclubs in New York or Los Angeles?

Be real people, we have no power when we are poor, we have no health care when we are poor and we have no voice when we are poor. Only the rich are powerful and get what they want and they don't want the poor and the middle class to step up ONE INCH. So before you spout all this fear, hate and disgust with our government (and you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine), think about who is getting the benefits of no universal health care. The insurance companies have the power to deny health care and have for many years to the deserving premium-paying insured. They will lose big bucks when universal health care comes to the United States. The pharmaceutical companies will be closely monitored and the insured will not have to pay such huge amounts for medicine they need. The extremely wealthy will not feel a thing, but the poor and middle class will have the ability to get health care and medication for a reasonable amount of money. And if you don't want to have this care you can pay your enormous premiums to the insurance company and take a risk with them.

I vote that we give God the opportunity to work this out in His own way. He is in charge after all, shouldn't we trust in HIM and not be screaming and yelling that this president is going to ruin us and put our old people to death. For God's sake, would we as a country allow that? No, we want the best for all people, rich and poor, young and old, smart and not so smart...Can we decide to pray for this president, pray for our country and let God handle the rest. After all, haven't we always been told that he knows what is best for us? Why are we afraid, isn't God big enough to handle this and help this country be one Nation Under GOD?

-- Posted by grannyoldknow on Fri, Aug 14, 2009, at 1:17 AM

Conservatism gives you the freedom to help anyone you choose, it's just not about forcing you to help everyone. See the difference?

George Bush was not a conservative by ANY stretch of the imagination. He was a republican but republican and conservative are not synonymous.

Why is it anytime obama's judgment is called into question, the first thing folks do is yell racism?

If you think the wealthy are socialists, I would contend you are the uneducated one. Socialism is one of those idealistic notions that look good on paper, but are disasters in practice.

Socialism by it's nature removes the incentive to excel. How many major medical advancements have come from countries with socialized medicine?

-- Posted by quietmike on Fri, Aug 14, 2009, at 1:43 AM

Those people screaming to give him a chance are completely fooling themselves and I'm tired of hearing those zombies. Seven months is a long time. Look what he's done thus far:

The largest spending bill of all time, thus increasing the national debt and the deficit by leaps and bounds and funding numerous ridiculous pet projects ...not good!

The cap-and-trade energy bill passing the house that would increase all of our taxes on energy if eventually passed...not good!

Trying to ram down this health care insurance reform bill down our throats as quick as possible without many legislators even reading the bill...not good!

Claiming he is not for the "single payer" system, even though he was taped 10 times in the past saying exactly that...not good!

Going over to Europe and apologizing for our country and trying to embarrass us in the process...not good!

Get the point? This guy has been given a chance and produced nothing but chaos. Look at it logically and not emotionally, and that tells you all you need to know.

-- Posted by DoubleJ on Fri, Aug 14, 2009, at 8:42 AM

Quietmike, you can contend anything you want but the truth is out there. I am not making up that the wealthy have everything they need, good health care, homes, cars, and anything they need is available and many of those items are given to them when they have enough money to pay for it. The whole problem is that as long as we sit still and let them run the country any way they like because they have all the money and all the power then the poor and middle class will just get poorer and have less. As far as medical advancement goes...what difference does it make how many advancements in medicine takes place if it only benefits the wealthy? And the reason many people yell racism about Obama's presidency is because NO one ever has treated a new president in this narrow-minded bigoted way and since he's black, well, sounds like racism, smells like racism walks like racism...gee--maybe its racism. None of us like to think we're racist because it sounds so tacky, but it's out there and its real and its going on. Call it whatever.

-- Posted by grannyoldknow on Fri, Aug 14, 2009, at 8:48 AM

So, the black people that don't like Obama are racist as well? Probably can't stand to look at themselves in the mirror. That must be a sad way to go through life. Someone should start a charity for them. Wait, they don't need one, they're not the ones on welfare.

-- Posted by Thom on Fri, Aug 14, 2009, at 10:01 AM

You think I might have lost this post?

Sorry to leave but it is time for me to go back to my gardening. See you folks on another one.

-- Posted by stevemills on Fri, Aug 14, 2009, at 1:40 PM

grannyoldknow,

Maybe we should let the wealthy keep their money because they EARNED it. Folks like you who believe they DESERVE the property of others just because you breathe air is ridiculous. I would have more respect if you were to get a gun and rob me on the street. At least then you would be doing your own robbing. Instead, you get a bunch of politicians and other citizens who will share in the plunder to vote in favor of the robbery, and send government employees to do the robbing, and feel somehow justified that instead of robbing, you are "making things equal".

I recommend you read the book "The Millionaire next Door". It explains how the rich got rich and gives some interesting facts such as 80% of millionaires in the U.S. are first generation rich. Meaning they started as average people and made their own fortunes. Most millionaires behave and live their life in a way that you'd never suspect they are millionaires.

Your jealousy of rich people is blinding you from reality. Also your jealousy of them does not make stealing from them a morally correct decision.

-- Posted by quietmike on Fri, Aug 14, 2009, at 1:48 PM

Amen, Grannyoldknow,

We do need to let God work. He works in the hearts and minds of people and loves a generous giver.

The problem is the rich people you refer to that get money for speaking at dinner engagements are the people in charge of our government. They are not trying to be generous with their own money. They already have the freedom to do that. They want to be generous with mine and yours and help themselves to a little more for themselves in the process.

Did Jesus compel the rich to give away their riches by force? NO! Even a tithe is only 10%. Our government is alreay taking more than 5 times that much and wants more. They cannot even manage what they have now without creating overwhelming debt. Jesus said if you were faithful in a little you would be faithful in much.

No, an overpowering central government which is comprised of rich people is not going to help the poor, unless you consider making more people poor helping.

If one desires to be rich then they can achieve that with the freedom we have and hard work. I am not rich and would desire more to please God than be rich. What do you want?

But I understand that God doesn't need more government to work his will. After all his government is a monarchy of which he is the king.

Look at history. Doesn't it show that big governments and high taxes do not serve God? They serve tyrants.

If you want to really know why there seems to be very little difference between Dems. and Reps. do a little research on the Council on Foreign Realtions, The Tri-Lateral Commission, and the Bildebergers. Their agenda is one world government of which I believe Islam will be the religion. Mr. Obama has been advancing that front as well.

-- Posted by Liveforlight on Fri, Aug 14, 2009, at 4:49 PM

YES! I DO demand... Let's get one thing straight. These poiticians have power because they are given permission to have power. And as a registered voter, I, as well as the rest of the registered voters, can take it away. The Constitution is to protect US! Not the Washington beurocrats that have been elected. Now Make them work for YOU! Just like Obama needs to. If you want a job (from flipping burgers to President of the United States)you stil have to prove your worth. Telling the truth is always a good start.

-- Posted by 1ukolsir on Fri, Aug 14, 2009, at 5:25 PM

The liberal and leftist "Bush haters" practically cheered when a foriegn journalist threw his shoes at President Bush. They exercised their constitutional rights to loudly protest his administration's policies in Iraq. However when ANYONE speaks out in protest against Mr. Obama's administration, they are branded as racist and un-American. Is it not odd that the former community organizer himself criticizes those in America's communities that have come together to protest his proposed health care policies? Leftist who protest government are described as sharing heartfelt and genuine emotion, yet Nancy Pelosi and other leading Democrats describe conservative protesters as being "astroturf", expressing manufactured emotion. The liberally biased media practically crucified "Joe the plumber" for simply asking then candidate Obama a question, as if he didn't have the right to do so. It makes me wonder if sometime in the near future, we are going to witness tanks on the Washington mall, intimidating those who disagree with this administration. That's exactly the way communist China handled dissenters at Tienamen Square.

-- Posted by Tim Lokey on Sat, Aug 15, 2009, at 2:09 AM

Liberals generally use whatever argument best suits their purpose at the time. It's irrelevant to them if the argument is based in fact. When liberals get painted into a corner with facts, they attack the other side with words like racist, xenophobe, hate-monger, etc., again it doesn't matter if these are factual or not, as long as they can win.

-- Posted by quietmike on Sat, Aug 15, 2009, at 3:01 PM

I do not recall anyone in thier right mind believing that spreading the wealth was going to fix problems for anybody. I, for one, believe that if it's money you earned, you get to keep. the Government is already taxing us and then this moron gets into office with a prospect of dipping out of my pockets to give to some welfare recipient who won't get a job because they're on dope ? Or just plain too lazy to work? The last time I heard of such ridiculous nonsense it was called SOCIALISM. This crackpot mindset that liberals have sold people, because they (those who elected Obama) evidently bought it, will fall. This incompetant buffoon that is holding office, should he live out his 4 years, will not see re- election. Niether will Biden and Pelosi. See screwed herself over that business with calling the CIA (or was it the FBI?) liars. Holy Lack of Accountability, Batman!

-- Posted by 1ukolsir on Sat, Aug 15, 2009, at 3:20 PM

Nathan Evans = disgusting excuses for rational thought conceived of by outright fascist crybabies.

That is pretty much all his comments of late! It is priceless that those words came out of his own mouth.

But really, I wish people would quit talking about Obama's birth certificate and talk about the real issues. Obama has made enough missteps to ridicule and question without making something up. With his agenda taking shape, it has me thinking of something inconceivable at one time for me . . . that I might actually vote for a Republican in the next presidential election. :-(

-- Posted by jaxspike on Tue, Aug 18, 2009, at 10:34 AM

Really Jax? You have a problem with my statement buried 19 comments deep, but completely ignore the disgusting tone of the comment above yours that highlights exactly the type of treasonous words I was referring to? Oh and then to top it off, you go and agree with me! That is my definition of priceless.

Ultimately, I believe that my heart is in the right place, and the ideas that I stand beside are not terrible endeavors for America. I, like everyone else, am frustrated by many things I cannot change. The decisions that are being made affect me the same way they do you. On the issue of health care, I do happen to believe that insurance companies are doing more harm than good. Is government the answer? I think government created an environment that promoted growth of the problem, so if something is going to change it will have to begin where it started, the government. We need our leaders, elected officials, and service providers to sit down and figure out real solutions to the very real problems we are facing. Talking about tanks preventing protests and celebrating assassination has no place in a real debate.

-- Posted by nathan.evans on Tue, Aug 18, 2009, at 7:02 PM

Nathan - Treasonous? Really? That's a bit of a stretch, even for you.

If you were truly concerned with adding to the "real debate" then you would have added something of substance to the question posed in the original post rather than using this for your "health care reform" message.

I am glad to see that you're backing off of your usual militantly liberal rhetoric a bit.

-- Posted by Thom on Tue, Aug 18, 2009, at 8:23 PM

I think this is a great article that explains why Obama public option plan is a disaster waiting to happen . . . just look at how bad the USPS is doing now and how it started.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2...

Nathan . . . replying to a disgusting comment with a disgusting tone yourself makes you no better than the person you deride. Aren't you suppose to elevate yourself to a higher moral ground if you are supposedly the better person? Sorry, but two wrongs don't make a right no matter how loud or rudely you say it.

-- Posted by jaxspike on Wed, Aug 19, 2009, at 10:39 AM

You all sound like a bunch of children fighting over the same toy. Stop the bickering and turn your energies to where they may do some good. Tell your senators and congressmen how you want them to vote (They are our voice in Washington).

If you can't help the problem, don't stir it up farther and make it stink more than it does.

You talk about letting God take care of things and the you turn around and take it back into your own hands. Do you have faith or don't you?

The Word says that God rises up rulers and He diposes of them. No doubt in my mind that he knows what is happening, He knows what He is doing, and He IS IN CONTROL.

-- Posted by Buggs007 on Thu, Aug 20, 2009, at 12:09 PM

WAY TO GO DMCG YOU ARE NOT A KOOK, OR SHOULD I SAY MAYBE WE BOTH ARE. I AGREE 100% WITH YOU. PRES. OBAMA IS HIDING SOMETHING AND WE AS THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES NEED TO VOICE OUR OPINIONS. WE NEED TO WRITE OUR CONGRESS, SENATE AND MAKE OUR DEMANDS KNOWN. OBAMA IS SO FULL OF HIMSELF AND WE ARE JUST PLAIN STUPID TO HAVE BELIEVED ALL HIS LIES. I AM HAPPY THAT I DID NOT FALL FOR HIS CRAP. THANK GOD FOR THAT!

-- Posted by Godschild1 on Thu, Aug 20, 2009, at 1:45 PM


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Steve Mills and his wife have one daughter and live on a farm outside of Bell Buckle. They previously owned two coffee/ice cream shops, currently operate an internet sales company and teach classes, but his primary job involves the paper industry worldwide. Hobbies and interests lie in gardening, photography, recorded music and of course, their pets.