Islamic subversion alleged by speaker

Are you freaking kidding me? When are we going to take our great country back? Ship them back where they belong!

So Par for the Course, you are excited about terrorism being implemented into our society? Read the entire article!

Mr. Mosely, I have avoided the temptation to comment on most of your stories. This one however, crosses several lines that just should not be crossed by a journalist in today's atmosphere in this county.

By providing "awareness", just how do these people hope "to protect America's religious and moral heritage through intensive lobbying efforts -- both in the nation's capital and at the grass roots level"? The national level is the only place to do such. It sounds to me as if this group of zealots is hoping they can convince locals to help them achieve their objective, "which is to pony up and use some courage and start stepping on these people."

This article seems to deny the rightful place of the "Law of the Land" and actually appears to be encouraging vigilantism both for individual citizens and local governments.

Are there actually effective Islamic insurgency training camps here? I certainly do not know, but I do know that the actions alluded to in this article do amount to subversion. You do not necessarily have to believe in Allah to create subversion.

If I remember correctly, you wrote an opinion piece about the right and wrong way to do things and how real people get in the way of ideals; was that simply an attempt to disguise your true objectives? I hope this piece does not incite any violence, but if it does, I wonder if you and the paper you are writing for will accept any due responsibility.

I do appreciate the brief history of Mr. Coughlin, and the disclosure of the Christian Action Network, even though you may as well have not even mentioned it, as I am sure you already realize.

in the garden . . . your attempt at intellectual discourse is quite humorous at best and I am sure people spend vast amounts of time worrying about your perception of them. |I also love your self deluded sense of importance and your inability to see the hypocrisy in your own statements.

in the garden . . . your attempt at intellectual discourse is quite humorous at best and I am sure people spend vast amounts of time worrying about your perception of them. I also love your self deluded sense of importance and your inability to see the hypocrisy in your own statements.

jaxspike, Are you actually trying to assume the position that if CAN has "infiltrated" these groups, that they are the only ones with the ability? Please!!!

I am very willing to accept that if someone is to determine a legitimate threat and counter it, it should be the appropriate agencies, not you, Brian or even me.

Actually, the only "bombastic and contrived" accusations are those from Brian, these zealots...and you.

I never implied that we live in a perfect world. We do however, already have in place a way to do things that make it "more perfect". To bow down to our instincts and passions does not protect the ideals of our society; it displays a complete defiance of them.

As I wrote earlier, there are many ways to cause this country harm...where do you fit in?

It has happened in several other countries, and it is happening and will continue to happen here.

anyone who doesn't see this going on every day in this country is completely blind! i witness these muslim women walking into department stores every day, dressed like overweight ninjas', stealing merchandise and sticking it in their clothing. you think any one of them have any fear of getting caught? no. why would they? not even the owner of the store has the courage to accuse these people, for fear that he will be sued for discrimination. it won't be long before the word "america" is offensive to them.

right on memyselfi

I'm glad to see this. Many of us have been aware of these camps across the country for a while, and that includes the one near Dover.

We've also been aware of what's been going on in Great Britain and other European countries, with the Muslims making more and more demands that those countries conform to Sharia law.

It's going on here, too, and that includes Shelbyville. Tyson has a prayer area, and I believe foot baths, at the Somalians' demands. And don't forget the paid Ramadan holiday fiasco.

Those who whine and call us racists for wanting to put a stop to this are the ones with their heads buried in the sand. Racism has nothing to do with it. Whether they like it or not, the threat is real and it won't go away just because we "make nice" with them. They have no intention of "making nice" with us.

Thanks to all of those who were involved in bringing this information to the forefront and for having the intestinal fortitude to do something about it!!!

I'm sorry, but Bush's scare tactics went away when Obama was elected.-- Posted by in the garden on Tue, Feb 17, 2009, at 3:50 PM

Yeah we traded one fear mongerer for another. All I've heard is how the sky is falling every since he was elected. So how is it any different now?

Immigration today is not the same as 100 years ago. There was no welfare state then and according to Milton Friedman, immigration is a bad thing in a welfare state, especially when the illegals have more rights then the legal citizen.

To think that Muslim terrorists are somehow setting up camps is extremely, extremely laughable to me.

-- Posted by in the garden on Tue, Feb 17, 2009, at 3:50 PM

|I guess you must be laughing at your own stupidity because they do operate in such a manner. Not only do they form cells, but they also form camps for recruitment and you can ask anyone in military if such things exist. Why do you think these extremist have such much power in countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan . . .it is because they first set up camps and recruited people to their cause and build a base to build upon. While they may not be in full force here in the states, there is definitely groups of Islamic extremist who form camps to help recruit people to their cause just like the KKK and other such groups. Are you going to tell me that the KKK doesn't exist either?

In regards to Obama and the fear tactics he is using to pass the stimulus package, I agree with greasemonkey on that. I read the following article that seems to bring this to light.

"Obama's Rhetoric Is the Real 'Catastrophe'

President Barack Obama has turned fear mongering into an art form. He has repeatedly raised the specter of another Great Depression. First, he did so to win votes in the November election. He has done so again recently to sway congressional votes for his stimulus package.

In his remarks, every gloomy statistic on the economy becomes a harbinger of doom. As he tells it, today's economy is the worst since the Great Depression. Without his Recovery and Reinvestment Act, he says, the economy will fall back into that abyss and may never recover.

This fear mongering may be good politics, but it is bad history and bad economics. It is bad history because our current economic woes don't come close to those of the 1930s. At worst, a comparison to the 1981-82 recession might be appropriate. Consider the job losses that Mr. Obama always cites. In the last year, the U.S. economy shed 3.4 million jobs. That's a grim statistic for sure, but represents just 2.2% of the labor force. From November 1981 to October 1982, 2.4 million jobs were lost -- fewer in number than today, but the labor force was smaller. So 1981-82 job losses totaled 2.2% of the labor force, the same as now.

Job losses in the Great Depression were of an entirely different magnitude. In 1930, the economy shed 4.8% of the labor force. In 1931, 6.5%. And then in 1932, another 7.1%. Jobs were being lost at double or triple the rate of 2008-09 or 1981-82.

This was reflected in unemployment rates. The latest survey pegs U.S. unemployment at 7.6%. That's more than three percentage points below the 1982 peak (10.8%) and not even a third of the peak in 1932 (25.2%). You simply can't equate 7.6% unemployment with the Great Depression.

Other economic statistics also dispel any analogy between today's economic woes and the Great Depression. Real gross domestic product (GDP) rose in 2008, despite a bad fourth quarter. The Congressional Budget Office projects a GDP decline of 2% in 2009. That's comparable to 1982, when GDP contracted by 1.9%. It is nothing like 1930, when GDP fell by 9%, or 1931, when GDP contracted by another 8%, or 1932, when it fell yet another 13%.

Auto production last year declined by roughly 25%. That looks good compared to 1932, when production shriveled by 90%. The failure of a couple of dozen banks in 2008 just doesn't compare to over 10,000 bank failures in 1933 or even the 3,000-plus bank (Savings & Loan) failures in 1987-88. Stockholders can take some solace from the fact that the recent stock market debacle doesn't come close to the 90% devaluation of the early 1930s.

Mr. Obama's analogies to the Great Depression are not only historically inaccurate, they're also dangerous. Repeated warnings from the White House about a coming economic apocalypse aren't likely to raise consumer and investor expectations for the future. In fact, they have contributed to the continuing decline in consumer confidence that is restraining a spending pickup. Beyond that, fear mongering can trigger a political stampede to embrace a "recovery" package that delivers a lot less than it promises. A more cool-headed assessment of the economy's woes might produce better policies."

Definitely a valid point to say the least!

Our Forefather's came to this country to escape religious persecution(Will.Penn-Quakers) Now to think the very laws of freedom of speech & religion are being perverted/twisted by Islamic Facists/Terrorists taking "Shariah laws" straight from the Koran plus, other teachings from these could quickly lead to a downward spiral in America. Countries like Winston Churchill's England are being taken over by these same extremists ..HONOR KILLINGS, BEHEADINGS, ABUSE OF WOMEN, DEATH TO ALL INFIDELS (JEWS, CHRISTIANS, HINDUS,-ANYONE WHOSE REFUSAL TO Convert to Islam -Via-(Shariah Law)Their Radical Views OF THESE TERRORISTS..This was Our'Mother Country'...and throughout Europe! For every church closing in many of these nations, 3-5 mosques spring up. Some mosques become breeding grounds for young men & women to become suicide bombers, or to carry out attacks against anything sacred that the "WEST'S" Solid Foundation was built upon!! Even as America is battling to avoid this erosion; Our True Liberties and Freedom that the Founders proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence & Constitution--Must be protected the World Over by Our Brave men & women in Uniform, Special agents, Policemen plus all who bear our flag and are proud to protect America! How thankful we must be for writers, such as Mr.Brian Moseley, & all in the Media who are willing to expose evil in any form when they see it!! Because, "We the People" are here to protect these True,Peaceful, Rights & Laws that help keep at bay & root out terror cells, camps; et al. "I Pledge Alleg...flag.. and to the Republic...with Liberty and Justice for All." -Please Remember Folks: "NEVER FORGET: September 11, 2001."

We here in the Southern California area I find Islam religious groups putting up stalls on why Islam is a religion of Peace.

But everyone should read The Religion of Mohammed written by

the Rev.J.L. Menezes published in 1912.

This little book should be read by the Public; he states in his modest effort, then placing before my readers, MAHOMMED and Islam in their true colors-so that over 60 millions of my countrymen in India, who blindly follow Mahommed as their heaven-sent prophet and leader and adheare to Islam as the one divinely revealed religion and the only true way of salvation, may open their eyes, and behold how they are deceived, and consequently take the the necessary steps towards finding a better leader and a more certain way of salivation; here in his book are facts and facts are facts and today its important everyone including law enforcement,Military,our Congress and you.

what we need, a bunch of us to get ready and go wipe out theses terriost camps. maybe that will stop them, temporarily, or what ever. fed up in Hendersonville Tenn

cfrich . . . actually most people dont know the reference you are making to that. It has just become a popular catch phrase of late.

I was not referring to Jonestown, but I do understand thats what the phrase hints to. I believe that phrase has transcended Jonestown now. If anyone was offended I apologize.

You cant count on Government Agencies for everything. Ready yourself and wait. Everyday citizens will be fighting the next war.

CHRISTIANITY...MUSLIM....no difference, yet none of you moan and groan about the "Christian Terrorist groups" or all the paid holidays you receive for the Christian belief. The Christians terrorize people just as much as the muslims and IF you actually lived by the codes of "the good book" you too could oppress women, kill your children and stone your neighbors for working on the sabbath...All religions have good and bad in it. It's what people do with them that make them good or bad. RELIGION THE NUMBER ONE KILLER IN THE WORLD!!! You people whine and cry about people trying to change things, but you think nothing of us in a country TELLING them they have to have a democratic society like we have, we push our morals and values on a country (IRAQ) that does not want us there or want to be like us. But hey, God told Bush to do it, so I guess that's okay right? It's all in the name of God and Christianity.

And Obama is NOT using scare tactics, people just aren't used to a President that will ACTUALLY TELL THE TRUTH about the mess we are in, we are all used to hearing that "the foundation of our economy is fundamentally sound" and that there is nothing to worry about, Obama is just stating facts, not fiction. I would rather hear the truth and be prepared than have stuff sugar coated for me.

This is absolutely nothing new.....the intelligence community has known about the hostilities and ambitions of major islamic secular groups for 30 years.

And the biggest killer in the world is secular and sociopolitical conflict....you dolt. Haven't you read a history book in the past 1900 years? The hostilities are cultural and historical...not religious. But maybe if you actually read the Bible and the Quran (and the characters are not in English so you can pretty much spell it however you want) youd actually know that. And why'll your at it...read the Torrah too. Then you might actually know something about the people you criticize....that goes for all of you.

The last thing you need to know is that no group has ever been judged a threat to national security due to its size (and no none of you insinuated that but i will make this clear) or religion. The KGB had less members than the violent islamic secular groups and no religion, but they were on the priority list for most of the aforementioned 30 years. They were considered the highest threat to national security even though they never had any public attacks on our nation.

Now some personal notes: Par for the course, they deported and extradited many many radical foreign nationals from ellis island. Customs was also much stricter during the active days of Ellis Island. That island was built for the sole purpose of immigration control.

Memyselfandi, there have been many islamic groups indicted in many criminal acts, including murder and sedition. The reason you havent heard of them is because most of them happened pre 9/11. There is also much reason to question the "peaceful assembly" of people whose divine mission is to kill or subjugate all nonbelievers.

inthegarden, under shariah law you would not be allowed to speak in public...much less make an internet post. also what?? may want you to cease and desist, but he wont stone you or stab you if you dont (assuming that it is a he and not a she). consider that you are very blessed to be in a country that allows people like you and him to speak whatever you want within reasonable limits. you sound like one of those people who think that Sacco and Vanzetti are still innocent. And if you dont know who they are...look them up. You'll quickly learn that people like that have been here since the inception of our nation. (Does OJ simpson ring a bell?) It's also been suppositioned that the policies of FDR prolonged the depression by many historians and economists. Grow up.

jaxispike....i agree with you almost whole heartedly. But i must digress that even with everything ive written...these people are still paranoid. But....that's actually a good thing. Normal people do not have the tenacity they have, and it is that tenacious behaviour coupled with perseverance that keeps us safe at night. They are the reason we are here. But after the Robert Hanssen affair, the FBI has earned the right to be suspicious of anyone for any reason. If a single man can crush the intelligence communities every effort, imagine what a hundred could do.

Vindicated, .....im not talking down to you. I'm telling the truth....you have no idea what youre talking about. (Gee it's not fun when people talk down to you is it. BUT its real easy to talk down to people. Like the party of Obama does to me every time one of them goes on a press conference. I wish they wouldn't talk to me like i dont know anything about basic economics even though a high school dropout could figure out that the great depression was much more severe than anything we are experiencing now.) seriously the man keeps saying "worst economy since the great depression". That may be true (and there is much speculation as to whether it is or not in terms of assets and networth) but putting it next to that is an attempt to make people draw an unconscious comparison. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON FROM OUR CURRENT RECESSION TO THE GREAT DEPRESSION. 14% unemployment in one city is nowhere near the 20-30% we had during the great depression...not even to mention the gross inflation due to the metallic standard and the bank runs. Now you could argue that that is a ridiculous assumption...but the man does not write his own speeches. They are written for him along the guidelines he suggests. Anything he says is tailor made for the occasion he says it.

Other than that...you people do have many valid points.

godspeed.

Are any of us TRUE AMERICANS??? My family came from Germany, my father and I just had the "honor" of being born in America. I just don't understand all this, everyone of your ancestors most likely came from another land hoping to find freedom, any kind of freedom, from war, religion, persecution, what makes any of those coming here any different than your ancestors, if they hadn't of come here, you wouldn't be able to gripe about the fact the you are an american citizen that is losing your freedoms, etc etc. What if, when greeted, your ancestors were told to go back to where they came from. UNLESS you are 100% native american indian, then you are in fact an offspring of some refugee or foreigner. Yet your family was allowed in and allowed to prosper. Take care of your own yard and stay out of the yards of others. I have YET to see any white people EVER lined up for a job ANYWHERE in Bedford County. Matter of fact when I first moved here, I was told by several WHITE people that they would rather NOT work than have to choke chickens and clean up their crap.

Firstly, i said radical feminist. get it right. I was in no way insinuating that all feminists are radical, but there are in fact radical feminists who consider females to be superior beings. I was also not in any way insinuating that you were either.

secondly, Al Gore is as you said a politician. He is not a scientist nor does he have any scientific background. He has never had any training or study outside of law. He lacks the authority to speak in any scientific forum. His intent or public image lend him little credibility to talk as an authority on the enviroment. The fact that George Bush has jumped on his bandwagon is not helping his cause. This man hasn't a leg to stand on other than his political image.

Third, I was not old enough to vote in 2000. I graduated from high school in 2001. I would have voted for bush twice anyway. It's not a matter of party politics for me. It's a matter of policy and personal responsibility.

I was not touting my own merits when i mentioned my test scores. It is more or less to show the inadequacy of the public education system. Also my college was paid for by grants, but not that how it is paid for gives me any status whatsoever. Also your comment is bigotry in its purest form. Assuming that my test scores are less than yours because of location is nothing more than bigotry.

But you beat around the bush (no pun intended) when it came to everything else. typical.

actually i was wrong....gore did study journalism for a time. my mistake :)

theinfamousratman, It is not the FBI or any other governmental "agency" that I am necessarily worried about, it is the very people of this great nation, driven by fear and propagandized by groups (such as this one in this article) that do have the desire to gain more control. Theocracy does not always wear a head scarf. It is also not necessarily understood to be ultimately and truly motivated by any particular religion, other than the control itself. What is illogical to me is the assumption that the very real desire to concentrate power should be discounted by me or anyone else. Motives have a part to play in every facet or our governance...and this story as well.

I am afraid I was not clear enough about my thoughts concerning these "training" groups. I do not imagine these people are free of scrutiny, or that they should be. The problem lies with exactly who is doing the scrutinizing, and them having a willing and apparently very eager sounding board to advertise their "findings" to a group of people who in fact are already very interested at a personal level.

This is not really about fair or unfair to me, it is about the rule of law. We do have the ability to modify our system of governance, either for our ultimate benefit or detriment. What appears to be a blessing, just may be a nightmare in the long run. Patience and truly insightful prudence must be the course of action, not knee jerk reactions based on anger and resentment.

I do believe that you are exactly right about this; sometimes people who cross certain lines do get fired. I imagine that explains Mr. Coughlin's current position. I just question giving him the ability to sow discontentment in this fashion when there is ample enough to go around in this town already.

There is no way they will all be deported out of the USA either forcefully or willingly. The place to start is here

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/no-more...

Please sign it

Important video you all should see!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hPebatL5...

I am writing from Chicago - a "Yankee" - sorry folks. But I went to college for 5 years in Nashville - the great state of Tennessee. It was/is great.

Yes, the reality is the Muslim immigrants/colonizers are starting to make demands, push people around, set up alternative Muslim society and laws, they are doing it in "Our country" just as they have always done this in other people's countries/communities (Hindu India, Greece, Spain, Balkans, Lebanon, Algeria etc). Right now Muslim populations in the US are small, in UK/Europe they are very large and populations exploding (Muslim culture promotes lots of wives, lots of children).

I suggest people here study history and note who was successful in resisting Muslim colonization, occupation and who is doing a good job now.

There are intelligent Western people in Europe, UK, USA that are aware of the situation and taking action, why not do the same in Tennessee?

Study Charles Martel, El Cid, Vlad the Impaler (Dracula), Ataturk, Pym Fortuyn, Geert Wilders, BNP, Nick Griffin, Le Pen, Front National, Swiss People's Party, Vdare.com Amren.com Amcon.mag

Many people in the West from Left to Right have resisted the Muslim conquests - just do your best now and we might make it through OK.

Turn off your TV.

My concern would be that the Shariah law is implemented in, (And I do believe it WILL slowly be implemented in) and the Muslim nation here in the US. would be exempt from breaking laws that Non-Muslims are held for. And what about when their is a Legal problem with an American and Muslim, more than likely the Shariah law will get the case for the Muslim over the American. Americans can only have one wife, one husband, does this apply to the Muslim nations too? What happens when the Muslim takes on American wifes, are they going to be held under the Shariah law? (No Rights). Our children has to be vaccinated for school, those with religious issues don't, Why is other children being subject to health risks because some religious groups (not just muslims) do not have to have vaccination? Just to name a few.

No, infamousratman, you did insinuate that I was a radical feminist. Regardless, I know you won't own the statement, like you won't own anything else you're wrong about, so I won't mention it again.

Furthermore, my comment is hard to construe as bigotry when your wonderful Bill Frist has come out to advocate for the betterment of your schools and has openly said that they are known to be some of the worst.

And, I find it HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY ironic that you cite George Bush as some kind of bastion of personal responsibility. You must have been asleep the last 8 years.

Please, think about what you're writing before you hit post. It will be better for everyone involved.

-- Posted by in the garden on Thu, Feb 19, 2009, at 4:03 PM

no, in the garden i did not. You are as blind as it gets. And since that comment wasnt even said to you, i dont even understand how you came up with that unless you attached everything i wrote to brett to that last statement. which is of course a very poor association given EVERYTHING I PUT IN THERE. READ EVERYTHING NEXT TIME.

Bill Frist is an idiot. I will agree with you point blank. He is a doctor. not a lawyer, or even a decent leader.

I chose George Bush as a personal responsibility after 9/11 over John Kerry as a feeling of responsibility for those who were fighting at the time. I would not have let a naive and narcissistic man preside over my brothers in arms. I would not let a man who was favored by code pink, peta, and all of the other insane groups out there run my country.

I you are going to cast away all rationale to take a stab at me...at least make it a good swing. I really dont understand what kind of hostility you have towards me, unless of course you possess the ever so fatal flaw of hubris. you are an intelligent human being. But please dont waste my time with your irrationality and jump the gun assumptions.

Anyone watch the movie Black Hawk Down lately?

I have watched it, but it was many years ago. I was unsure if it was entertainment, history or propaganda though. It was acceptable entertainment, a terrible historical narrative but it does represent a perfect example of the power of propaganda.

When you class all "those" many factions and individuals together in one group, and that singular group is portrayed as an enemy, you do a disservice to many people, not only there, but here also. That particular sentiment also represents an intellectual dissection of the actual history that completely discounts any concept of reality.

please follow:

1, muhammad is the "seal of the prophets" (although in my readings he was rather plain about his not being a prophet but a messenger; ok. then: the messenger is "the seal of the prophets"?).

2. the prophets to whom muhammad is said to be the seal of are:

daniel. jeremiah. isaiah. ezekiel (and all the other prophets of ancient israel that muhammad cites in the koran. correct?)

3. every one of these prophets (of whom muhammad is said to be the seal of) prophesied that the children of israel would return to the land promised them by God--the one God who is God of all. correct?

the above being so, muhammad would not be the seal of the prophets if he were not in agfreement with the prophecies of God (is God of all, correct?) given by God to the prophets that he, muhammad, is supposed to be the seal of; is this not correct?

how then are adherents and proponents/ "jihadists of islam" inciting and lieing so as to commit (and cause to be committed) theft and murder--

--in the name of islam,of whom muhammad is the messenger--

against the children of israel and seek the destruction of the state of the children of israel? are not them that do and seek to do so, are they not contriving and committing themselves by their acts and thoughts against the express will of God whose Hand of History is undeniably returning the children ofisrael to the land of israel as the prophets said by the breath of God who is the God of all? does not islam mean submission? why then are there murderers and liars and thieves in rebellion against the will of God, even in the name of God?-- unless it be that they are exactly what their words and deeds reveal them to be: liars, thieves and murderers. is this not correctr? is not God one and true? or is He a thief or is he a liar or is he a murderer?

listen to this, i fully agree with it, call it hate speak if you wish, but to heck with anyone that says that, we all, at least for now have a right to say whats on our mind.

http://dotsub.com/view/84f5c72d-b0ba-408...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrug...

The fundamental basis for the premise is a person's ability to be self-sufficient. Reliance upon others for effort so that you may prosper is wrong. Atlas Shrugged is based upon the belief that people should be responsible for there own decisions. People should be responsible to produce for themselves and provide for their families.

Memyselfi,

It all comes back to personal responsibility. We do not need to speak more of it other than that. Our Government is currently moving towards socialism.

I worked hard to get where I am at today. I am frustrated that others will be rewarded for not working so hard, and be rewarded for their failures.

Where in this scenario does it make sense?

Ayn Rand.

She understood this.

A persons value is based upon their worth and effort.

I have tried to read most of the comments from both sides and it seems to be a chance for the intellectual to show their wealth of stored knowledge and chosen philosophy. However the basic truth is always found in the underlying motives and not in their actions. Our new and shining administration is moving ahead on groundwork that was set in place prior to his arrival as president. He really does not know all that still has to be done yet. He simply was the chosen person to put the final touches on the master plan. He will try to make good on his promise to bring change to this country and every one that believes that it will be the best for the people will not be pleased with the changes.

His agenda includes a radical redistribution of controls on the checks and balances to drive any needed legislation through congress. One of these checks and balances to be removed will be an attempt to register all firearms and eliminate the second amendment from the constitution to insure a docile and safe public for the plan to continue. Ammunition will be heavily taxed and firearm manufactures will be forced to deal only with the government as Bill Clinton attempted with Smith and Wesson. That was just a learning curve. Jimmy Carter set the main plan in motion with the legislation to provide affordable housing for the low income. This was tweaked a bit by Bill Clinton to force the banks and financial institutions to loan more unsecured money or not be favored for expansion by the Fed. The final results were as expected. An uncontrolled ten year growth ending with a total meltdown of the financial institutions and a collapse of the economy just in time for a bright and shining new age president wanting change. What else could be expected?

The Muslim community as a whole only wants to live a peaceful existence and be treated with respect. In this country they must also learn to respect the civil laws and the host citizens as well. This is where the riff begins and should end. A few of the evil and deceiving clerics and Imams that follow the Muslim population bring their radical beliefs and help to breed the hatred that infects so many of the young men and women. Of course our greedy and corrupt politicians, financial institutions and corporations really make it easy for them to show the young people what a democracy will do to it's citizens. Once a few are turned on to the jihad concept, they can use fear of reprisal in families to inflict their will on the rest of the community. This simple method of warfare and terrorism has worked efficiently for centuries in the middle east and will continue to work until the Muslim citizens living in this country decide to unite to stop the cycle and eliminate the threat.

The truth is everybody is a capitalist. That is, they want to be rewarded for their efforts and they would like to be allowed to better their life by hard work, innovation, imagination, sacrifice and even a formal education when possible. They can even own a home if they start small and work their way up. My first home cost me $7,000.00 and it was a wreck. The main objective of a capitalist democracy allows the pursuit of happiness for everyone that wants to participate. In theory, everyone starts on the bottom and works their way up. The problem is, many learn to be ruthless early on and the greed for more money than they could ever spend consumes them. They manipulate money but produce nothing.

Socialism by definition suggests that everyone deserves the basics of survival whether they work for it or not. None are really rewarded for their work because they are expected to produce in a collective manner for the elite. That is why communism never worked because there was no incentive to excel. The exceptions are always the elite rulers of government and industry and they also feel they deserve the pursuit of happiness along with the wealth afforded their status. Did I mention the state owns everything in any socialist plan similar to the bail-outs taking place to save the corrupt corporations that simply lack imagination, and honest hard working executives to turn a profit. These pathetic accountants are made rich by gambling the lives and welfare of the employees and richly rewarded for the short term profits provided for downsizing and gutting a healthy business. No company is left healthy after a round of quick sales and poor product design. Anyone that believes you can spend your way out of debt has another agenda to work for. Every fix by the government to shore up our economy will be temporary until the government decides to get out of the financial business and work for free enterprise and democracy instead of again simply trying to control the population and the businesses. The Third Way of Socialism is not the answer in this country or in any country for that matter. It will enslave the people and provide a pursuit of happiness only for the wealthy elite rulers of government and industry.

Dear "in the garden"

Maybe I was a little hasty in my remark that you were blind. Maybe just grossly misinformed would be the best term to use. Barry Obama has no love for the individual's constitutional right to arm or defend himself. He could be impeached for trying to eliminate the Second Amendment but he can try to have it a reinterpretation of the Amendment during his stay as president that would simply eliminate the individual's right of ownership of firearms or make them so difficult to maintain that no average man could afford to own one legally. A move to eliminate the sale of hunting ammunition, semi automatic weapons and detachable magazines is presently being written up as legislation. I am sure you know that already. I sort of believed that to be the same as eliminating the right to own them if you can not buy them. This basically happened in Europe, Great Britain and Australia and as a centrist he is aligning our present style of government in the same mold. The founding fathers of this country knew the democracy that was established can only be maintained in cycles between just and unjust presidents and politicians and provided the only means of redefining freedom of the people by means of the threat of revolt if the government wandered too far off the path. By disarming the people, a loss of one check and balance will allow a much easier move to socialism. If this is as far as you read, you missed the meat of the article.

Memyselfi,

I appreciate your honesty and look forward to your dialogue. I will repeat what you and I said in different manners. Look past the rhetoric and focus on the motive. Why? Everything else we see in politics is just smoke mirrors, and diversion. We are in a spiral, in my opinion, downward to simple enslavement by a government and industry seeking a dominating role in our lives. Heaven knows that a "pure" democracy is all but unmanageable and the personal factor "greed for money and power" within our elected government officials prevents their actions from always being in our favor. I am a registered republican and could not be more disappointed in their performance over the past eight years but keep in mind, a healthy economy will fluctuate every so often simply because of the demand. Only when unhealthy actions made by a controlling government such as unsecured loans forced on a banking system will a simple bubble in the economy become a major problem. The bailout is just a temporary patch and the problem is not repaired. That is where we are now. The 700 lb. gorilla will not be a friend of the people and a compromise of political values to be able to embrace the rest of the world ideas will not affect our lives too much, but will force our grand children to a subservient existence in the future. That is the only reason I stand to the right. The Constitution was an experiment, well thought out by mostly men of vision that had no desire for world domination. They only wanted each and every citizen to participate in their freedom to pursue happiness.

In the garden, this is for you.

You really hurt my feelings when you called me stupid so I had Mr. Carney rule on it and he said "are you serious? I would have to spend all my time deleting." So I just have to understand that it is just unfortunate that some people just run out of original ideas and revert to calling names. "Stupid, blathering moron, redneck, does not deserve respect, ignorant. Well spoken and a tribute to Rosie O'Donnell and her flaming liberal ideas. We are well past the issue of the Second Amendment and it should be agreed there would not be a citizen owning a firearm in America if Bill Clinton had his way. Furthermore, what you say is correct that the government can not keep guns out of the hands of criminals. (they will not even put them in prison when they use them) They are the people that are killing each other in the inner cities. The law abiding citizens cause absolutely no problems but Government Gun Control affects everybody except the criminal. Get your facts straightened out and we would enjoy an original thought from you.

well longbow i guees i'm stupid for thinking obama is wanting to get rid of the 2nd amendment CAUSE HE IS SURE ON HIS WAY TO DOING IT!!!! are you living under a rock his pick for attorney general is wanting to CLASSIFY ALL CENTER FIRE RIFLE AMMO AS ARMOR PIERCEING, but your right that wouldn't have anything to do with the @nd amendment. Wake up people you better be on the phone to your elected officials.

Dear in the garden,

Barry Obama could not have side stepped that issue any better than you. I really like the race card thrown in for flavor. Lets take a step back to your statement that kids in gangs are killing kids with guns. Does it seem logical that the gangs are the root cause and not the guns. Does a sharpened pencil cause misspelled words? A kid that kills another with a hand gun is a criminal if it was not used in self defense. The government can not keep criminals from possession of firearms. If cheap handguns are banned, the criminal will have to spend more drug money for a better quality gun on the black market. If all handguns are banned the criminal will just have to use a sawed off shotgun for his handiwork and the victim will just have to settle on a stick and rocks for defense. The government can only keep firearms away from law abiding citizens and turn the law abiding citizens into criminals simply by possessing banned or illegal weapons that are used solely for self defense. That is called government gun control. Now do you understand?

It seems we got off of the subject at hand so after a little research, it does look as though we may have a problem with our Muslim brothers in Tennessee. Again because of a Muslim background, Barry looks like he may turn a blind eye and allow the compounds to gather strength in the State. If the State knowing allows a subversive group to practice the art of terrorism in Tennessee, I would think the people that allowed it were traitors at heart. That would make Tennessee similar to Afghanistan and subject to invasion by U.S. forces to clean up the mess. This problem should first be left with the Muslim-Americans to deal with the issue to purge their community of the driving forces creating the problem. If they are too timid to handle it, they can always seek help from the State. If the State refuses then I would think it is the duty of the rest of the American population to lend a hand. Do you see how easy it is to loose focus of the problem at hand. Leave it to a liberal to divert your attention to a non-issue and just confuse everything. See the attached link.

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

Seriously in the garden,

You did not find it curious that a federal judge and a state senator that are both professional orators flubbed the most important oath in their lives and then re took the oath of office in private without the use of a Bible. I saw this on MSNBC for Gods sake. His whole presidency has an odor of conspiracy behind it. One thing I am sure of and that is there is no real transparency in our government. We can see only what we are being shown

longbow, Sorry I haven't been on lately. The weather has been nice and I have had a lot of catching up to do with outside chores. I also had to spend a lot of time with the family this weekend. There has been a lot going on here between you two, but I think what I am most curious about is exactly where you may live. I have never been exposed to "hunting" hogs. Except for the time when one of my grandfather's got loose, but we didn't need an AR-15 for that, although I was pretty young and would have felt better about the entire situation if I had one in hand.

longbow, I have never been much of a hunter. I have been numerous times and I never really enjoyed it. I imagine there are several reasons for that. The first is that it involves a lot of waiting time. I imagine that another reason is that I was never really motivated by any of the benefits. I had neither any immediate family that hunted for me to "prove myself" to, nor the desire to eat much of the food that was available here. I think that if there was the possibility to bag several hundred pounds of ham, chops, ribs and bacon, then my motivation would likely change. I would probably hunt regularly.

I would enjoy reading your philosophy of freedom. I do also tend to agree with you that any underlying truth may never be found and I really doubt there is a universal underlying truth. That being said, it is our understandings of this "truth" that give us our bearings, and without some effort to find it, I do not believe that we are volitional beings at all. We are blowing in the wind.

If you have the time, when explaining your ideas about freedom, please also try to let me know things like, who is entitled to these freedoms, do the freedoms require any responsibility, and who do you believe is threatening them and why.

I'm sorry, but I was not able to DL any of it. I am on dial-up and those videos would take hours to view. I tried last night, and again this morning to get a decent connection, but was not able to.

longbow, I did not mean to give the impression that I was leading you. I was doing just the opposite. In your first comment, it seemed as though you had a lot on your mind. I just wanted to give you the opportunity to write it without being distracted by other lines of thought. If it appeared as though I were anything, except a student waiting for direction, then I apologize. That is not to say that we will not likely disagree on many things, just that I appreciate your level headed comments and wanted to understand where you were going with them. I do imagine that we have some years separating us and our understandings. I am 38 and have spent most of my life here in Shelbyville, and just to make it clear, I am not a collage educated liberal. While I do lean to the left on most social issues, I have never voted at all. I have never even seen any clear differences within our political spectrum (if you want to call it that).

I think change is hard for everyone. Especially when, as you wrote, this change "forced a whole population to bend to what was politically correct". That statement makes me wonder who you think decides what is politically correct. I do not know, but I do not think it is a group of leaders sitting at a table deciding what is best for everyone. I think it should be understood as a general consensus amongst us, with dominate schools of thought being pushed by the more powerful factions. I do imagine the "leaders" have some ability to direct what we decide, but the control remains ours, if we decide to use it.

To use your example of the civil rights movement, the south was undoubtedly used as propaganda to direct the will of the people. Unfortunately, we southerners do not always present ourselves very well on TV, and there will always be a small percentage who love to display their ignorance. Sometimes people more easily define themselves by what they do not agree with, as opposed to what they do. To demonize and marginalize any group is the first step to discounting their thoughts. Was segregation (not only educational, but political and economic as well) wrong in your opinion? I personally think it was, but I am a white male. I imagine many blacks would go a little further, and claim that they knew for certain that it was wrong. Right or wrong, they produced change. That is what exactly freedom represents to me. I do understand that there was another side, who would question what happened to their freedom to be segregated though. Was that freedom overlooked? Do we have the freedom to demand rights that interfere with other peoples rights? History tells us that yes we do, if we desire it, and can also convince others to accept our position. My question is how can we justify desiring it. I have not been able to, or heard any arguments that could convince me that I should. Judging from the reality we have today, I guess I am in the majority.

I do understand your commitment to tradition and how change presents problems for you. When you ask why you should have to change, my reply is that we are a nation of change as far as I can tell. When I look at how our government works, I see change being a natural consequence. We do not have one set of rulers or a set of unchanging laws, or even a solid standard of how those laws are to be interpreted. By the very nature of our government, it was meant to change and be guided by the general consensus. The smaller communities do not have as much of a voice as the larger ones, and sometimes I think it may seem as though small towns and rural areas are left behind and dominated by the population centers, but could you imagine the outcome if that reality were reversed?

I think before we can decide who our friends are, we have to have a better understanding of what "friend" means. If by friend, you mean only those who have the same world-view and agenda as yourself that represents one group of people. If however, you mean someone who has a completely different agenda than you, but promote it legally within the accepted political realm, that represents a lot more people. If by problems, you mean change that you do not like, there are many. If by problems, you are pointing to those who wish to violently overthrow, I think there are very few. I may be too optimistic about this, but I believe time eventually "sorts them out". To stop the "infiltration" will require doing things that I am not sure we individually have ability to do. You may be surprised by this, but I am personally anti-immigration. That does not mean that I am against the immigrants themselves though. They are guilty of doing what we all do, trying to better our lives. I do not believe individual states can even be considered separate governments anymore. I think that the states have finally become comfortable in their role of middle management and have resigned (not always willingly) to having their will administered to them from the federal level. The way I understand it, that is the way it should be.

I looked at the link you provided. I do not really have an opinion about gun control. As I wrote earlier, guns are great for self-defense, hunting, collecting, ect, but provide very little protection from either an invading military force, or from an oppressive government. I do not believe that any gun control legislation will reduce crime. It may very well reduce crimes involving gun use, but not overall. I imagine that crimes involving other weapons will just increase. The gun does not provide the intent; it is just the most effective and currently available tool to achieve the ends. There are ways to reduce crime though. I think one of the best ways to reduce crime is for everyone to believe that they have real options. There will always be crimes of passion, but when a person believes the only way for them to get what they want out of life involves a life of crime, we will have crime. I also believe that drug use (or more accurately the business of drug distribution) contributes heavily to our crime rate. I think that instead of spending billions of dollars to enforce drug legislation and house the offenders, drugs should be legalized and easily accessible. The money could be spent on quality rehabilitation instead. I have yet to read about a crack-head robbing a store who had plenty of crack already. They commit crimes only to get more over-priced black-market drugs that represent huge profits for those criminals who provide them. Sometimes I wonder what is meant when I hear that we are becoming a "service based economy". Does that mean that we will eventually be in two groups, the prisoners and the guards? Given the growth of our criminal justice system in the past 50 years that could be our future. It is not just the drugs or the firearms, it appears to be the direction of all of our legislation. I however do not think we should forget that most of this legislation represents real people though, and their beliefs about how to effectively deal with real situations. There are simply some people who believe that gun control will stop crime and long jail sentences will reduce drug use. I do not agree, but who am I to say? I do not think they are much different than you or me, just that their solution attacks the problem from a different angle. We do want the same basic outcome, for the same basic problems though, at least as far as I can tell.

Smoke, mirrors and motives. I'll tell you what I think as well. I do not believe there is a conspiracy that is being perpetrated on the average citizen. I believe we are the ones who are taking our own rights away. We are the ones who are concentrating the wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands. We are the ones who drive the agenda. We are driven by our own greed and fears to the point that we are our own enemy. When we focus on the political or economic, we are the party who is responsible for our own decisions. I will grant you that we do have very powerful influences that do indeed have their own objectives, but as long as we have the ability to effect change, we cannot rightly be considered the victim in the purist sense of the word. What concerns me is that there are so many of us who do not take the time to fully understand the realities we are presented.

longbow, Okay, that is a whole lot of comment. If you do not mind, I will just go down your comment in the order you wrote it and separate my answers to your comments by using your same paragraph separations and separating my thoughts within each paragraph with "...". That is the only way I know how to maintain any direction at all. At the end, I will try to respond with an overview of the comment as a whole. I won't bother writing about the many things we seem to agree about though, just attempt to highlight what may be our differences.

I am a little confused by this sentence. A few comments ago, didn't you state that "The truth is everybody is a capitalist. That is, they want to be rewarded for their efforts and they would like to be allowed to better their life by hard work, innovation, imagination, sacrifice and even a formal education"? I wonder why some must be provided for then...While I agree with you that society in general is more important to focus on than the individual; I believe the individuals within a group will fairly accurately represent the health of the society. If we have many individuals having trouble within a society, it likely speaks more about the society's health, than each individual's...I am not sure to what extent the government allowed or disallowed the amazing increases of personal debt over the last few decades. Certainly, they did little to curb it, and in some limited cases even encouraged it, however I do not see the issue being one of governance. I see it as a business model to expand markets. It only becomes an issue of governance when we find ourselves expected to pay for that failed business model.

I imagine that a shrinking majority in this country are Christian, and that the Constitution was written using enlightenment values by people who happened to be descended from the western Christian Reformationist tradition. There are some very telling things written into the Constitution, and also some things that were left out, that are just as important...I think I may see the objective of our republic a little differently than you described. I agree that the majority is to be dominating, but not completely dominate. When you write "maintain the Constitutional rights of everyone" I wonder if you accept that those rights do include an ability to attempt to effect change and develop a different majority...I do not know what the Muslims and poor are "demanding". Please let me know what you think that is...I am not so sure that the idea that our government was superior was in fact universal. Nationalistic pride is a very powerful sentiment and it would not surprise me that much to find out that before the advancement of communications, we were not as revered as we may have been led to believe. As far as I can tell, we have always had problems, both internal and external, since we became a nation; some have never been resolved and have survived through the duration of our nations existence... The public coffer has always been opened to buy votes. Through time, we just eliminated some of the middle men and effectively re-routed some of the currency...If the government has decided to "provide themselves a lifetime of financial security", did they do that by voting themselves obscene raises? How exactly would they be able to achieve that objective without displaying outright dominance? There is after all a separation between the government and capital, isn't there?...Total control of the population seems to me more easily achievable through economic means as opposed to infighting among different factions. I think fear is an important benefit of the infighting, but I do not believe actual "war" is much more effective than the fear of it...I would need to know exactly what you mean by "political correctness" before I could reply to that aspect of your comment...

I am not at all prepared to label our universities as being institutions of thought control. If anything, I imagine further education gives one more ability to decide for themselves their direction in life. I will grant you that there is definitely more exposure to various problems with our society that may be overlooked or not so blatantly exposed during primary education, but these do represent very real issues. I would almost go so far as to say that I imagine an education enhances ones ability to reason, by freeing them from the confines of limited knowledge and understandings.

I believe Clinton and Bush (either Bush) were just following the same agenda. I cannot see the difference in any important policy. To assign blame to one, and incompetence to the other, discounts what is glaringly obvious, as far as I can tell...I think it depends on what you mean by "fix". The problem is that a "fix" to one group represents the exact opposite to another. I have no doubt that the actions of the current (and past) administrations will eventually "fix" the problems. What I do doubt, is who the "fix" benefits.

I agree 100% with this entire paragraph, and you wrote it much better than I would have been able to.

I think that revolt in this country is not only doomed to fail, it is, at least for the time being, redundant... Reciprocity is a wonderful objective...I do not know if your comment takes into account the many followers of Islam who are already here and possessing citizenship. I also wonder if you realize that some people are advocating a similar approach to any religion, other than Christianity, here in the states as you described being practiced in some Islamic countries. I believe it the wrong approach for either society...I do agree with you whole-heartedly that our laws must be adhered to. I just also believe that once legal status has been achieved, the same laws that protect us must necessarily protect them as well.

I agree that security should take precedence over religious and personal issues. I only question who has the ability to "prove" the intent of destruction and mayhem and then take action against it.

After reading your comment, I believe you have the feeling that we are headed down a path you do not like. The problem is, I cannot tell who it is exactly that you hope to assign the blame to. You mention the democrats, Muslims, the universities, the lack of morality, irresponsible government spending, the poor "and maybe even the French" in your list of culprits. I do not intend to be condescending at all, but you seem a little fuzzy on what you believe is happening, while at the same time having a degree of certainty that something undoubtedly is. I understand that our reality represents a complex multi-faceted intermingling amalgamation of sometimes apparently unconnected events and I assume that you believe someone, or something, is ultimately controlling them to the future detriment of us all. What I am looking for specifically is the suspect, motive and method. When we try to put all of that together, it becomes very difficult for us to come up with viable explanations. It is all too easy to mix them up and eventually we are left grasping for sand. I have a different way of looking at it.

If we are going to spend this amount of time typing, we may as well get to the heart of it all. If you were looking for debate, I will provide you the opportunity here by challenging the ideals you apparently hold most tightly to.

I, like you, believe that we are headed for change, and a change for the worse for the majority of us. I believe that there has been such a consolidation of power in the last 100 years that we have come close to the end of our free ride with Capitalism as we know it in this country today. I imagine the end of Capitalism started with more and more socialism to make up for the weakened condition of the majority, and still provide for the necessary expansion of investment. Once the strong have a firm control of the government, the weak may be administered to through it and controlled by it, for the ultimate benefit of the strong. If the easily available options of government choice never represent real change of policies, the strong will never be in fear of a political uprising or the demands of the people. I do not believe our economy has been compromised by our government. I believe our government has been compromised by our economy through our accepted party system and the use of capital to manipulate the political process. The objective appears to be global economic domination and we appear to have a good start already.

That being said, I think the real problem to all this, is that we are on auto-pilot, with no one in particular guiding this massive amalgamation of greed, and without any particular destination in mind, except the objective of more growth. With everyone being guided by their own selfishness, and following the invisible hand, who is watching over the invisible hand? After a certain point though, there is no more growth for the capital to achieve. After all markets have been expanded, created desires satiated, all wealth consolidated, there is no more reason for capitol at all. The capital represents nothing. The land, resources and labor of the people are still the only measures of value. With no opportunity for growth from capital, we will eventually see our society regressing to a more feudal reality, as opposed to a more advanced society. After consolidation, what is the objective of manufacture, sales or technological advancement? When we look to the classical economists, a vision of today's economic realities would represent a nightmare scenario. It was not so long ago that the thought of what we today readily accept as Wal-Mart would have been a concept relegated to science fiction. There are very few businesses, even small businesses that do not now represent a multi-national conglomerate to some degree, either through sales, service or raw materials.

I believe we have been conditioned to accept this form of Capitalism as a natural reality springing from freedom, when it represents anything but that. It represents only the fulfillment of the lust for power that capitalism embodies, and completely discounts the actual values that I believe this country was founded on. I am not a Communist and I do believe in a certain type of Capitalism, as I wrote earlier, I do not object to the third way. I do not believe it should be unregulated though. I also do not believe it can rightly be regulated by what passes as a dialectical discourse in our government today, or self-regulated by the very people trying to gain advantage. I believe it should be regulated by the people, and that the people have the responsibility of understanding how to regulate it fairly and effectively by supporting and voting for those who truly have the best interests of our Nation (and the majority of people in it) in mind, as opposed to what is always best for the few.

Ok, this is my first attempt at blogging and personally I don't pay much attention to grammer, beyond the little that is instinctual...but I do try and make sure that my ideas are conveyed in an understandable manner so I apologize for that in advance and if at any time what I am trying to convey is unclear please let me know and I will try and repost it in a more clear manner...It appears to me that fundamentally longbow is adamant in assigning blame while memyselfandi is wanting to claim that no one is to blame..if im completely wrong please inform me...on that note I will approach this contestation of ideas...personally I would say you are both right to a degree...longbow I agree with many of your arguments saying we have a right to be affronted by a threat to a prosperous way of life while people are handed on a silver platter what we strive so hard for...we should as Americans be guaranteed "life, liberty, and property" and if this is not in the govt's interest we should make our "appeal to heaven" if people are willing to go that far...I wholeheartedly disagree with gun control and any other sort of weapon control, but we must ask ourselves in this social contract where do we draw the line to feel safe from a violent death to where we are able if need be to fight for our ideals? ...What do you think is the reason we have a right to arms? To overthrow a govt when it subverts natural law; "life, liberty, and property"? Or is it based in self defense? to defend against a threat to our base beliefs, ideals, or even physical safety...? Or is it as I believe a homogenous mixture of the two...We live in a unique era, never before has there been the ability to communicate or even travel thousands of miles leading to current immigration issues...It is correct for you to fear the muslims as it does represent a threat to our culture and way of life...for what better way to cause change by causing an imposition of culture and flooding a given society with people who have drastically different world views which brings me to memyselfandi...(to longbow if i have mentioned or questioned something previously discussed I apologize as I haven't read the entire blog and the same goes to memyselfandi)...

You seem to want to make excuses for everyone being different and that it is ok... I agree with you fundamentally, but at what cost? The way the current series of events are leading up it is going to end up in one convoluted homogenous culture (perhaps the only exception being the working class and the ruling class, and the grossly unfair distribution of wealth and power between the different "estates")...so you would be supportive for a socialitic world power? Equality for all but only in moderation? as you have to have to the concept of reward and choice albeit perhaps a mere facade of one, to have a happy and content population which would be more productive and still maintain a steady progression of advancement in any given field...even this would be nice, but at what point would the imposition of a single overarching culture(which would be the inevitable result of letting different nationalities freely dilute a country) cause people to fail in their self actualization? People work hard trying to attain some sort of inner contentment and when immigrants impose culture, fear, and/or take away oppurtunity away from certain facets of life especially in the area of lower end jobs by flooding the workforce? Let a thousand flowers bloom? But what will eventually be the deciding factor in this blossoming? sheer numbers or actual potential for obtaining the paradigm? History would favor numbers...No matter how perfect the snowflake it will be lost and consumed in the blizzard...

we all fear change and oppression which oftentimes come in the same package, but at the same time who are we to deny the dreams of other people who may be different and just want to improve their lot in life...In truth there is no way to differentiate the two without looking at each respective case subjectively...What of the "social contract"? Is it the govt's place to provide a single definite answer? Can they truly? It is much like trying to please a flock of children, they all have different needs and wants and there is no way to please all of them...Personally I think moderating the influx of any immigrant, muslim, mexican, or any other scapegoat minority, would be the best course of action at this point in time...we are flooding the lower echelons of the work force and in the process creating cultural tensions within our own borders...Everyone should have their chance at happiness and who am I to judge whether or not they deserve entry to the US just based on where they were born and raised? I believe though that life is simply unfair and before we can offer greater oppurtunites to immigrants we need to have taken care of our own nationals first...It does no good to anyone if the plane is too weighted down to lift off even before adding more passengers...I again apologize for my crude lack of attention to grammer and will forewarn you I may not be on for a week if u want to address any issues with me or point out any insolence ignorance that I wrote:D

Your words are eloquent and your name says it all for me too. You are right in all the accusations and I concede to the truth that I am looking for someone to blame for our troubles. My understanding of basic politics and world finance is at best limited and everything I discuss is heart felt and strictly intuition. I have stated several times that if I was subject to the Mexican economy, I would probably cross the border in the middle of the night to find work in the U.S. to help feed my family so I certainly understand where they are coming from. I spent a week in Mexico on a mission trip building small homes on corn plantations beyond Brownsville. The vast majority of land in Mexico is owned by a few controlling families and I felt a great unease at my wealth as compared to the people we worked with. They all seemed so resourceful but hopeless in having a better life. Maybe it is a caste system of sorts. I hear about the Congressmen and their anger at the AIG executives and their bonuses. What bothers me is why now? Is it because there is a failing economy and some still want to live lavishly? Is it because of the public up roar? Was it OK to reap the huge salaries and bonuses as long as no one was complaining? Step back and look at the general public in the small towns and you will see them making only slightly more money than they made 15 years ago. The difference is they will not complain if they are just left alone with their liberty and freedoms. They can and will take care of themselves with a limited amount of the frills that the government expects everyone to have. I know this for a fact because I have experienced it and I believe it made me a better person and I should think it may provide some insight to life if everyone experienced it

Too Much Talk and the paragraphs are too long. It bores me.

Think about this, easy bullets.

1. Common Language.

2. Culture.

3. Borders, and the respect for them.

If we can protect those things within our country then we may have a chance to survive as a nation that our forefathers created for us.

If the A-holes in Washington wish to destroy these things then we shall go by the wayside, as did the Roman Empire near the end.

Just because a lot of these posters here have long winded blogs and speak so well does not mean they are right.

Education is not a substitute for intelligence and/or experience.

Plain Old American Experience is Key to this issue.

You wanna destroy this country? Then continue on the path of these intellects that have posted here.

If you wish to save this Country then follow your heart, and the wisdom that is within yourself. DO NOT ALLOW THESE ARROGANT SELF-GRANDIZING THAT DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO PARAGRAPH BREAKS EFFECT YOU.

We as Americans have a right and a burden to protect our country from invasion, even if our corrupt politicians in Washington will not.

Seems like to me we need a NEW TEA PARTY.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_ty...

Too little substance, and too many hollow rhetorical talking points. It worries me.

Think about this, easy defenses.

1. First Amendment...clear and present danger...ring a bell?

2. Whose culture? Yours? Mine? American culture? Could you please define that, but don't forget about that pesky 1st amendment you so aggressively defended for yourself a few days ago.

3. Borders should not be understood as a one way street. They work both ways, and that respect must be mutual.

If we can protect those things within our country then we may have a chance to survive as a nation that our forefathers created for us.

If the A-holes in Washington wish to destroy these things then we shall go by the wayside, as did the Roman Empire near the end.

Just because a lot of these posters here have long deeply rooted convictions and speak aggressively does not mean they are right.

Conviction is not a substitute for education, intelligence and/or experience.

Plain Old American Experience is Key to this issue.

You wanna destroy this country? Then continue on the path of these opinionated zealots that have posted here.

If you wish to save this Country then follow your heart, and the wisdom that is within yourself. DO NOT ALLOW THESE ARROGANT SELF-GRANDIZING THAT DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERECE BETWEEN SENTANCES AND PARAGRAPHS EFFECT YOU.

We as Americans have a right and a burden to protect our country from an invasion of assaults on our rights, even if our corrupt politicians in Washington will not.

Seems like to me we need a NEW TEA PARTY.

Brett, Seriously friend, I am glad to see you still here. I thought you had tucked tail and ran after my last comment to you. I have been waiting patiently for a reply. I cannot for the life of me figure out why you have so much hostility toward me. If you would read my long and boring comments, you may see that we have a lot more in common than you think.

I appreciate the fact that you see me as an educated intellectual, but your attempt to pigeon-hole me has failed. I was born at BCGH and have lived most of my live here. I have an 8th grade education and have worked at many of the crappy jobs this wonderful town has to offer. As a rule, I have always worked at jobs so bad, most of my fellow citizens (maybe even you) would have turned up their noses at the opportunities that I was appreciative of, just to keep my children off the free lunch program and food stamps. Not that I ever made enough to be disqualified, just enough to not be forced to accept.

I will not bore you any further, but let me ask you something: What does it prove about an ideology when knowledge becomes a liability as opposed to a justification?

Hmmm,

How interesting, walk down this comment of mine.

Outside Independence Hall when

the Constitutional Convention of 1787 ended,

Mrs. Powel of Philadelphia asked Benjamin Franklin,

"Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?"

With no hesitation whatsoever, Franklin responded,

"A republic, if you can keep it."

Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state.

Thomas Jefferson

For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.

Thomas Jefferson

History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.

Thomas Jefferson

I am mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, the sale of a book can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too.

Thomas Jefferson

I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion.

Thomas Jefferson

I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

Thomas Jefferson

Key!!!!!!!!!! This one.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

Thomas Jefferson

Tell this to Obama!!!!

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.

Thomas Jefferson

Obama ALERT,,,,

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Thomas Jefferson

Power is not alluring to pure minds.

Thomas Jefferson

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.

Thomas Jefferson

To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

Thomas Jefferson

Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.

Thomas Jefferson

When a man assumes a public trust he should consider himself a public property.

Thomas Jefferson

THIS IS THE KEY ELEMENT TO IT ALL

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

Thomas Jefferson

Listen to Glenn Beck as much as you can; that is until his voice is taken away.

Trust me, I am not a radical, I am an American that loves my country and I am willing to die for the freedom it provides me, and if this new administration gets in the way of those beliefs then, that will cause a lot of us Americans to rethink our ideas.

Our country is being systematically being destroyed at the foundation with the destruction of OUR CONSTITUTION.

Once the effects of the current Administration's Policies regarding economics start effecting the well being of the population we shall see some backlash.

The Socialist, ("insert Obama") in my opinion only has another month before his honeymoon is over. However, his actions to date, in my opinion will drive our country into the ground during the course of the next several years.

The cap and trade for global warming program will likely cost on average an increase of $1800.00 per year per household with the electric bill. BTW, there is no freaking global warming; this last year was the coolest out of the last 10 years. This is only another tax on the common people by our control freak politicians.

We cannot print more money to get out of debt. Money has no value once the government has no fiscal policy that shows other countries that we don't even respect our own currency. Go back to the Germans after WW1.

A book to read is Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged; this is what is coming to our country. Our government is currently destroying the producers by taxing them more and rewarding the losers.

Eventually, all of those within our country that produce and are effective will leave.

So sad, so very sad, I love this country...........

Contact me at greenbayfan@hotmail.com if you wish to opine with me or hook up and discuss these issues.