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Story comments suspended

Wednesday, January 27, 2010

The Times-Gazette has temporarily suspended the comments feature from news stories at its web site while we review our Terms of Service. Comments are still active on blog entries, but not on news stories.

This newspaper and many others across the country are still looking for the best way to integrate social, or new media into our traditional newspaper environment to benefit the community in the best possible way.

We value your participation in our online community, but the comment feature also attracts a small number of users who create problems, whether that means profanity, defamatory accusations or personal arguments and attacks.

We anticipate restoring the comment feature with changes soon, but in the meantime we would like to solicit our readers' opinions, whether you post comments yourself or just read them.

You may post a comment directly online to this notice or you may e-mail editor@t-g.com with your comments on the issue.

We are committed to making t-g.com Web site the best it can be for our readers and the community.


Comments
Note: The nature of the Internet makes it impractical for our staff to review every comment. If you feel that a comment is offensive, please Login or Create an account first, and then you will be able to flag a comment as objectionable. Please also note that those who post comments on t-g.com may do so using a screen name, which may or may not reflect a website user's actual name. Readers should be careful not to assign comments to real people who may have names similar to screen names. Refrain from obscenity in your comments, and to keep discussions civil, don't say anything in a way your grandmother would be ashamed to read.

The day that free speech died on this website?

While I do disagree with some views of some individuals on here, I do believe that everyone has the right to their own opinion and expressing it. I wish this was solely about profanity, defamatory accusations or personal arguments and attacks but sometimes it seems the staff takes it upon themselves to remove certain viewpoints and opinions as contrary to their standards while allowing other comments that are equally as polarizing stay.

That is just my opinion though.

-- Posted by jaxspike on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 7:29 AM

Dang..I kinda look forward each day to read the comment section of most articles. I especially like it when folks start bickering with incoherent sentences, misspellings and personal attacks. Lotsa hateful and misinformed people in Bedford Co. but fun to read about!

Have a great day Y'ALL!

-- Posted by bobdiamond on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 7:32 AM

Here are what I see as the two major problems we've had (and I've also removed comments for these reasons).

1. Individuals misusing the site to launch personal, highly insulting attacks on their perceived "enemies," then complaining about "freedom of speech" when those comments are removed. Our terms of service don't allow such comments.

2. Individuals who make totally incorrect claims in connection with news stories.

-- Posted by David Melson on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 7:59 AM

The comments are more entertaining than the stories much of the time.

-- Posted by CCCCJKL on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 8:10 AM

I think this is the best thing that could have happened. Most comments left about stories were cruel, untrue, and could truly hurt someone's innocent family members. The comment section really allowed a huge flood gate to be opened spewing GOSSIP. People can go to the coffee shop or other sites to make their feelings known. Way to go T-G, keep the comment section off.

-- Posted by Easton on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 8:23 AM

Thanks for the explanation but it would have been nice to see this on the same day (or even a day or two before) that the comment capability was removed from the news section.

@David

I have no doubt that the two abuse points you mentioned occur - actually I know they do, I've seen one or two. But in the end, the benign comments completely outweigh the abusive ones. Most of us never mean any harm in our statements even though many of us get testier than we would in everyday life as debates rage. It's often easy to do when we feel strongly about an issue or event.

But if the powers-that-be decide that the impact of the abusive comments outweighs the stimulation of the spirit of debate and discussion then the comments should indeed be discontinued. After commenting here for more than two years, I would tend to say they don't.

-- Posted by gottago on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 8:28 AM

Make people sign in under their real name or at least make it available. This would shut up about 95% of the personal attacks. I agree something should be done. It's mostly the same ones who stir up trouble.

-- Posted by jdl.7971 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 8:34 AM

I "ditto" Easton's comment.

-- Posted by ontheoutside on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 8:45 AM

Why punish everyone by taking the comment feature away? Can't you just do like the social networking sites and ban the specific user that doesn't comply with Terms of Service? Give them a written warning that's sent directly to the email that they registered their user account with. Then, if they still proceed to go against the terms, ban them as a user. That's fair.

-- Posted by candasons07 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 8:52 AM

some people want to get on here and get abusive while others sprew GOSSIP and this comments section should be to help others and not harm

-- Posted by quality control bozo on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 9:36 AM

I disagree with the T-G for this change. I can understand if the newspapers feels that the comments left by posters might be a liability issue, but I don't think that is the case.

In my opinion those that are or might be offended by the comments should do the same thing, as they should do with a television program, that they find offensive. Change the channel and don't watch it or in this case don't read the comments.

Just my honest opinion,

William

-- Posted by HorseGentler on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 9:51 AM

I think it is great. Now there will be no need to monitor the forum from outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 10:03 AM

Lame David.

Who's pulling the papers strings trying to get rid of the online comments?

Isn't that how this town works?

Comments are just that,comments.

-- Posted by twospd on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 10:54 AM

Too bad it's not available for the Blanchard story. Many tales to be told there.

-- Posted by jdl.7971 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 11:12 AM

this is not shocking.... if people dont like what they are reading then dont read it.

-- Posted by armywife2916 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 11:21 AM

But this is the only newspaper in the county. You can not exactly "change the channel". You can choose not to read the comments, yet there they are blazing in front of you below the story. I would think that someone that was in a story, good or bad would not really like the idea of negative, mean spirited people making comments about them. Many of the people in news stories have children and families that may not be involved with the stories just the person or persons in them. The hurtful comments about "Billy Bob needing to die or rot or whatever" is not really needed. My or your thoughts on these stories are not needed, the news story itself is all that need be online or in paper copy. If we value our own thoughts and ideas, true or false, then go start a blog, or tell it to your neighbor. Some of the comments I have read are very disturbing. I log on to this site to read the news, not see what John Boy thinks should happen to Joe Bob.

-- Posted by Easton on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 11:35 AM

Please, please put the comments back! I read the TG online each day and I greatly enjoy the comments. Often, they contain more information than the original news story, for example, a relative was posting updates on the condition of the girl injured in a recent auto crash. I would hate to see them stopped just because of a few bad apples. I think they should be warned and then banned from making future comments. Also, I just don't pay much attention to some of the nonsense that shows up sometimes.

-- Posted by grannybee on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 11:36 AM

I wonder if there was a way to implement a digg or slashdot style system where we could mark trollish comments down and make them where they don't show by default? Perhaps there's some sort of plugin that could be installed to the site's CMS backend?

-- Posted by benjithegreat98 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 11:40 AM

Maybe if they are human interest stories, the comments should be enabled and if they are Crime or Political they should be moderated?

-- Posted by Evil Monkey on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 11:41 AM

I can't remember if there was a "Terms of Service" or not when I signed up as a user. It there was, then anyone who agreed to the terms should have their user account deleted permanently. Why punish everyone for the sins of a few?

-- Posted by tatersue on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 11:56 AM
Response by John Carney:
We can and do delete user accounts for severe or repeated violation of the Terms of Service. But that hasn't been sufficient to deal with some of the problems. So we're taking a careful look at the entire situation.

What is freedom of speech and its limits? In my opinion, Freedom of Speech is the right to state an opposing view without fear of repercussion. It is not the right to bash, insult or be rude to those with differing opinions.

When our founding fathers included the first amendment they were addressing the right of the people to speak without fear of repercussion on the abuses of their governing bodies; it was not about the right to spread rumors, hate or to slander another individual.

I believe that differences of opinion and points of view can be written about (discussed or debated) without resorting to personal attacks. One can state that they interpret the facts (key word, here) differently than another. We must however, recognize that we may not sway another to "see it our way." We must learn to state our understanding of the facts and be willing to "walk away."

When has a personal attack ever "won" someone over to our side? When did it become okay to malign another man's character without data to support the allegation? Do we have the right to usurp a man's business (the newspaper) to promote our vendettas against another? If this type of dialogue were taking place in our living rooms wouldn't we want to put an end to it? RUST COMMUNICATIONS and T-G will have to decide what kinds of dialogues they are comfortable with in their "living room."

By the way when we all signed on, we agreed to the following rules. Did we read and understand them or did we just "click okay."

EXCERPTS from:

RUST COMMUNICATIONS OPERATIONS, INC.

Attn: Jon K. Rust

P.O. Box 699

Cape Girardeau, MO 63702

phone: 573-335-6611

fax: 573-334-8882

e-mail: webmaster@semissourian.com

TERMS AND AGREEMENTS:

"If RUST COMMUNICATIONS removes materials posted by you as a user due to alleged copyright infringement, you may seek to have the materials reinstated by notifying RUST COMMUNICATIONS's designated agent in writing and including the following information:

your full name, address and telephone number

your e-mail address

identification of the material that has been removed or to which access has been disabled, including its location before it was removed or disabled

your statement under penalty of perjury that you have a good faith belief that the material was removed or disabled as a result of mistake or misidentification of the material

your physical or electronic signature

Community Forums

RUST COMMUNICATIONS may provide chat rooms, message boards and other public posting areas or community forums ("Community Forums") on the RUST COMMUNICATIONS site. If RUST COMMUNICATIONS provides any such Community Forum or if you use a Community Forum, you are solely responsible for your own communications and the consequences of posting those communications. RUST COMMUNICATIONS does not assume any responsibility for the consequences of any Community Forum communications on or arising from use of the RUST COMMUNICATIONS site. In cases where you feel threatened or believe someone else is in danger, you should contact your local law enforcement agency immediately.

In consideration for being allowed to use the Community Forums, you agree that the following actions shall constitute a material breach of these Terms and Conditions:

Do not disrespect the privacy and views of others;

Do not use the Community Forums for commercial purposes, including the promotion of any specific goods or services;

Do not post obscene, profane, sexually explicit, libelous, slanderous, defamatory, harmful, threatening, illegal or knowingly false information;

Do not post blatant expressions of bigotry, racism or hate, material encouraging conduct that may constitute or contribute to a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability or violate any national, state or local law, regulation or authority, or any other material which RUST COMMUNICATIONS finds objectionable;

Do not use the Community Forums for unlawful purposes;

Do not impersonate another person;

Do not allow any other person or entity to use your identification to post or view comments; and

Do not post material that infringes on the copyright or other intellectual property rights of others or the privacy and publicity rights of others.

RUST COMMUNICATIONS reserves the right to record dialogue in Community Forums. RUST COMMUNICATIONS is not responsible for screening or monitoring material posted by users or any other person or entity. If notified by a user of communications that are alleged not to conform to the terms of this Section, RUST COMMUNICATIONS may investigate the allegation and determine in its sole discretion to remove or request the removal of the communications. RUST COMMUNICATIONS reserves the right to remove communications that are abusive, illegal, disruptive or that otherwise fail to conform with these Terms and Conditions. RUST COMMUNICATIONS reserves the right (but is not obligated) to edit or delete any communications posted on the RUST COMMUNICATIONS site, regardless of whether such communications violate these standards for content. "

Kent and John, I hope I haven't violated the COPYRIGHT terms by posting this excerpt. If I did please delete and/or substitute the web link.

-- Posted by amalphia on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 12:04 PM

Really good idea Benjithegreat98! It would be awesome if the comments had a thumbs up/thumbs down to click so that the best and most relevant comments rose to the top. That would really take the site to the next level. RIP Comments Section... for now.

-- Posted by nathan.evans on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 12:06 PM

Dang, I didn't know they would pull the comments section because we responded negativly to the proposed building code change that would require sprinklers installed in new homes. I sorry, I want do it again, now give peeps back their voice or is this China?

-- Posted by toolman on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 12:29 PM
Response by John Carney:
This has been under discussion for several weeks and isn't tied to any particular story. In fact, discussion of issues (like whether or not to require sprinklers) is exactly the type of thing we want to encourage; it's the personal attacks we've had trouble managing.

I lilke to read the comments BUT--when people comment their ideas or thoughts, someone else reads them to be 'the truth' and then tells someone else and they tell someone else, when it really just 'started' out as just plain gossip and ended up really hurting innocent lives because although they say it was in the paper so it must be true but didn't bother to say they acturally read it from someones comments..MAKE SENSE??

-- Posted by shelbyvegas on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 12:29 PM

I will miss the comments section. Somehow I feel that the voice of the community is being silenced. In a way makes me want to cancel my subscription because I think a newspaper should be all about free speech and allowing opposing views to be heard. I like the idea of a reader rating of some type for comments. I will wait and see what T-G decides but if the comments section is permanently deleted then I probably won't renew my subscription.

-- Posted by hemmaw on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 1:00 PM
Response by Brian Mosely:
Please keep in mind that this suspension is only temporary.

Personally, I favor the removal of the comments feature on news stories. That's what blogs or discussion boards are for. If a t-g reader wants to start a discussion about a news story THAT BADLY, then he/she could write a blog about it. Then, if anyone wants to read his/her opinions, they can click on his/her blog entry to read it and respond to it. There are already some really great bloggers on this website who successfully start some very interesting discussions. A comments section tied to a news story is, in my opinion, just not the place for it.

-- Posted by onenamil on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 1:12 PM

I bet that is why most people use this Internet site: so they can read the comments.

-- Posted by Nutella on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 1:34 PM

SO VERY GLAD to see it gone. That way I won't be tempted and voice my opinion and or hear something that I don't want to. Reading it is simply curiosity......just gotta have it. Please DON'T bring it back!

-- Posted by truckindaddy on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 1:36 PM

You will definatley see a decline in your Internet users; I promise, this isn't a good idea for the Times-Gazette.

-- Posted by Nutella on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 1:38 PM

Why not put the comments back up but make it to where people have to use their real names as the username? That should take care of a lot of the nonsense that is on the comments, but still allows those of us who do behave to still be able to post about the articles.

-- Posted by go bama on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 1:46 PM

Wow! Just another reason to quit reading this one sided newspaper. Funny they removed the comments just prior to elections but I'm sure that had nothing to do with it. Do us all a favor and just report the news and leave the comments alone after all this is feedom of speech. We are all able to agree or disagree with whatever we like.

-- Posted by votethemout on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 1:59 PM

So what if it is a decline in internet user, I know I read the online version, it is free. I used to buy it but now I just read the stories here. I've always wondered how much of an impact this actually made on TG sales.

-- Posted by Easton on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 2:02 PM

I would like to comment on your comment. You said there were two reasons you stopped comments on stories.

First, you said some people were using the comments as a method of making personal attacks. Please, continue to disallow these posts.

Second, you said people were making completely incorrect claims connected to stories. Does the T-G not sometimes apologize for errors or misprints? Could it also be said that a commenter has information that we, the readers, might want to know, or that the T-G got wrong? It could happen.

I have seen abuses on the comments. I agree that some should not be allowed in print, in your paper or on line. However, a well thought out policy that allows comments would be highly welcomed.

jb

-- Posted by johnmicah777 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 2:20 PM

Simple solution, ban all republicans!

-- Posted by toolman on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 2:46 PM

What happened to freedom of speech? When we are no longer able to say what we think and or feel the United States of America will become just another ommunist style place to live!!!! If it hasn't already.

-- Posted by flipdiptaterchip on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 2:49 PM

I talked to someone today who feels the negativity of some commenters has caused a negative feeling toward the newspaper itself -- even though we just provide an outlet rather than actually making those comments.

Your thoughts on this?

-- Posted by David Melson on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 3:12 PM

Thanks nathan. I think if a crowd-sourced moderation system were put in place that most people can tell what is slanderous or trollish and mod it down. The most relevant would rise and the crap would be hidden. If I had to guess, most people here treat the commenting system with dignity, it is just the few trolls that hurt the rest of us. I enjoy reading the comments from time to time, but sometimes people get so hateful towards other individuals that it is hard to read.

I wonder if it would help clean it up in another way as well. Sometimes when people see a trollish comment they respond to it and they themselves come off as trollish in their response. With a mod system, they could just mod it down so it gets hidden and thus ignored.

But if the CMS doesn't have any kind of plugin that can handle that, then it's a moot point...

-- Posted by benjithegreat98 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 3:52 PM

I wonder if there was a way to implement a digg or slashdot style system where we could mark trollish comments down and make them where they don't show by default? Perhaps there's some sort of plugin that could be installed to the site's CMS backend?

-- Posted by benjithegreat98 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 11:40 AM

I thought there was already a system in place to flag any comments that anyone took to be offensive.

What is the flag at the end of each comment for if not?

I thought the T-G instructions were pretty simple : -> -> -> If you feel that a comment is offensive, please Login or Create an account first, and then you will be able to flag a comment as objectionable.

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 3:54 PM

Make people sign in under their real name.....

Posted by jdl.7971 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 8:34 AM

That would stop most of the stone throwers hiding behind the bushes. At least it would remove the bush they hide behind.

But it would also cut down on the T-G's numbers it sells with.

All in all, I think jdl.7971's idea is what would be best though.

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 4:08 PM

Yes, we have had a system all along for people to flag offensive comments, and it's been useful, although not every reader who should make use of it does.

-- Posted by Jicarney on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 4:09 PM

Why is the TG allowing comments on this???

-- Posted by Disgusted on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 4:09 PM

Dear Times Gazette Editors,

Under the heading COMMENTS, you instruct:

__________________________________________________

...."Refrain from obscenity in your comments, and to keep discussions civil, don't say anything in a way your grandmother would be ashamed to read."

__________________________________________________

Regretfully, my Grandmother passed away some years ago. However, my wife is a grandmother and matriarch of our family. I asked her opinion of comments contained both in the news and blog sections of your fine newspaper; including comments from notorious writers such as "Outonthefarm", "Witness", "Ponyboy" and of course, the infamous "Rev. Bell".

She said none of those pseudo obscenities or, less than civil utterings, made her ashamed to have read.

She went on to say however, that selective censorship made her sick to her stomach!

-- Posted by garhawk on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 4:12 PM

As others have pointed out, if real names were required the comments would most probably stay on topic and not get to "bashing the messenger." Note there are a few commenters, some with multiple identies, who try to dominate the discourse. Most bloggers have been respectful of others comments until they have gotten viley personal. Then they retaliate. When someone can anonamously libel one who is known by many and has spent decades building their character and then one must have such a diatribe seen by their families is hardly a proper use of the protection on the First Amendment.

-- Posted by cmcclanahan on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 4:24 PM

somecommonsense,

The 2 sites I mentioned have moderation systems that don't require administrative work. In the current system, if it returns, if you flag a comment, then an admin needs to check it out and make a judgement call as to whether it needs to be removed or not. In a crowd-sourced mod system, admins need not interfere. WE mod the bad stuff down because or the good stuff up. In the mentioned sites, the modded down comments are hidden by default, but if you want you can view them, but the understanding is that the crowd considered them trollish or off-topic and they have less relevance to the conversation.

-- Posted by benjithegreat98 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 4:55 PM

I have spoke with several individuals who have demanded their trial be moved to another county due to stories and comments from this site. It costs our county thousands of dollars to take a case to trial but it costs even more when it has to be moved due to stories and comments posted online for the potential jury members to see. Good job TG, this will be a great help to our community in the long run.

-- Posted by Karma101 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 5:21 PM

I clicked the link to read this and the first thing I noticed was that there were 40+ comments... irony?

-- Posted by darrick_04 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 6:08 PM

Major newspapers allow faithful readers to comment. Smaller newspapers do the same. You certainly have a right to not allow comments on your stories, but many feel this is a mistake.

Why not simply suspend users that abuse this system, that's not hard. Its a shame that the acts of a few always affect the majority.

Since this may be the last opportunity to comment on a story. ---

In reference to Karma01 :

Seriously- if anonymous comments on a local newspaper website are admissible in court, and actually affect the outcome of a case or have the potential to ; We have a much larger problem than this website wouldn't you agree? If you happen to be an attorney you may want to read up on case law a tad if really, and truly, these comments somehow end up as exhibits in a trial. ( I dont believe that).

To the T-G, regardless of your decision thank you for the right to comment in the past, and thank you for your hard work on both the stories and the community on T-G.com

-- Posted by corywh on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 6:38 PM

Response by John Carney:

This has been under discussion for several weeks and isn't tied to any particular story. In fact, discussion of issues (like whether or not to require sprinklers) is exactly the type of thing we want to encourage; it's the personal attacks we've had trouble managing.

Yes, and I appreciate that John, because I tend to use this forum as a means of education to the public regarding building code issues.

-- Posted by Brett Favre on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 7:25 PM

Regretfully, my Grandmother passed away some years ago. However, my wife is a grandmother and matriarch of our family. I asked her opinion of comments contained both in the news and blog sections of your fine newspaper; including comments from notorious writers such as "Outonthefarm", "Witness", "Ponyboy" and of course, the infamous "Rev. Bell".

She said none of those pseudo obscenities or, less than civil utterings, made her ashamed to have read.

She went on to say however, that selective censorship made her sick to her stomach!

-- Posted by garhawk on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 4:12 PM

First i have never seen myself as notorious but, in this case, I will take it as a complement. Had the paper vetted the claims made in this forum, against individuals and named businesses, not related to the stories of which a blog was started I would never have offered my comments. I have been accused of stepping on toes and having mine stepped on neither of which is true or a concern. What is a concern is that the public in general will read a comment, blog or news story and accept on face value that it is correct. That is typically far from the truth. So if my veracity in attempting to assist the purported "know nothing pundits" has offended you and other fellow commenters I would apologize. But I do not and would not do the same for the blogger that you so strongly supported. It would seem you want that person in a position that would allow him to slant the truth from a position of what most in the community would think gives him some air of legitimacy. That is why my comments are as they are from outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 7:40 PM

outonthefarm,

Now, now, let's not back up into another pile of it outonthefarm.

You have already confessed to "enjoying your stoning of the man from behind your bushes" while having arragantly claimed to have "your feet propped up".

Carl McClanahan simply expressed his opinion out in the open that you were a "know nothing pundit". Evidently you believed in him and his opinion and you took it personally.

You stoned him while hiding behind a bush and you admittedly "thought it was funny".

Notorious??

Taken as a compliment?????

Everybody sees things differently I guess.

Much like.....

One sees it coming from the east side of the square.

The other sees it coming from the west side of the square.

Then another sees it coming from the center of the square.

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 8:07 PM

Just a thought:

If the comment section is disabled that may result in significantly less 'multi-visit' traffic. Advertisers like more traffic and this may reduce purchase of online ads.

-- Posted by gottago on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 10:33 PM

...."Carl McClanahan simply expressed his opinion out in the open that you were a "know nothing pundit". Evidently you believed in him and his opinion and you took it personally."

Would that fit into the "Please be respectful of others and try to stay on topic"

If you would check your collective notes my comments came after the "know nothing pundits" comment. You are right everybody does see things differently that is why sometimes we should just agree to disagree. I see you are still in the comfort of the bushes yourself. As for his opinion I took it for what it was a preemptive move to silence anyone who would disagree with his "claims" as and "expert" and not his opinion.

Next you make a string of comments that mean ...what?

"One sees it coming from the east side of the square.

The other sees it coming from the west side of the square.

Then another sees it coming from the center of the square."

Really what is the subliminal message? Do you think there is a conspiracy? I hear there are UFO's at AREA 51 and that BIG FOOT is running amuck in Wheel. LOL you are funny and I still enjoy the banter back and forth. You see as I have told you before it is just an opinion why does it bother you so much that is comes from outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 11:19 PM

I almost find it funny that some of the same people commenting in here are the exact same ones that I am guilty of going back and forth with on 3 certain stories ran in the last 2 weeks.I had always enjoyed the comment sections for various reasons up until the comments on these stories took on a life of their own.I can admit that I have been guilty of the bickering back and forth along with several of the people commenting on this story.. the "conversations" can get pretty heated depending on the story.We all take things said very personal when theres negative things being said about someone we know/knew.thats human nature. And I can say all day long if you dont like it then dont read it, however the comments draw you in and you have to look and in turn respond.I have seen the last cpl weeks personal info being written in the comments and thats not what the feature is there for. I do agree with the comment section being there but it does seriously need a better look at how to keep the readers from turning it into their own little area to rage war against someone. The story can be anything from politics to tragedy to just every day life and yet theres always a hand full of people that always feel a need to take the talks to heights they need not go. If its brought back or not wont affect if I read the paper.Just how much time I spend on the site.How long Im on the site doesnt really hurt or help the t-g...

-- Posted by armywife2916 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 11:46 PM

Personally I could care less about the comment section one way or the other..but I do know for a fact the comment section has affected many people who were given Jury Duty. (i.e.: The t-g runs a story about a crime. The person(s) in the story are still innocent until proven guilty yet many on here want to hang them in the highest tree before they reach the court room. People who read the articles also read other people's opinions, regardless of whether they are correct or not it puts doubt in a prospective juror mind) Crime stories that are likely to go to trial should not have comments. Your right to Freedom Of Speech does not trump The right to a fair trial of someone else. JMO

-- Posted by Dianatn on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 11:52 PM

I haven't read the blogs much in a while, so I don't know what has happened. I'm too tired right now to read all the comments, but I would like to make a suggestion. I have seen some websites with forums that have MANY smilie faces with different characters on them that people like to use to express themselves in their comments. Maybe you can look into using these little characters in the place of words. It may be fun, creative, people can still voice their thoughts and opinions without the use of profanity, and it should be much easier to monitor. Hope that helps a bit. Be Blessed.

-- Posted by Momof3&3step&1gran on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 12:14 AM

I think you should allow the comment section.

If you allow the bloggers to comment and accept comments from others, it should be the same with news stories.

-- Posted by espoontoon on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 6:04 AM

I have seen the last cpl weeks personal info being written in the comments and thats not what the feature is there for. I do agree with the comment section being there but it does seriously need a better look at how to keep the readers from turning it into their own little area to rage war against someone.

-- Posted by armywife2916 on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 11:46 PM

So why do you do it?

-- Posted by nathan.evans on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 8:29 AM

I think the paper should read the post by Dianatn right above and consider it. It made more sense than anything I had read so far including my own post.

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 8:34 AM

I agree with many of the other posters that if people had to post with their real names, 99% of the problems would be eliminated. I do realize that if you required a name instead of a user name, someone could just make one up. How about being issued a user name in person at the T-G office after requesting one? I understand that the annonymity of the postings, and the ease of instant registration, was the appeal to most people, and that requiring someone to put effort into making a trip to the office would greatly reduce activity. I also realize many people will resist this due to allegations regaring their freedom of speech being restricted. However, in reality, in no way does this limit this freedom, it only makes people accountable for what they say. Our freedom of speech ends where libelous statements begin.

-- Posted by nursekaki on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 9:43 AM

ok, i agree about making people use there real names. freedom of speech right??? if you want it then you should freely speak from who you are not some made up internet name u can hide behind.

if comments were taken away all together, it wouldnt be the worst, because alot of bedford county talks a whole lot of non-sense about things they only know about from the news. if they take comments away for good... and you want your freedom of speech about something. tell it to somebody who will actually argree and care what you have to say... tell your self in the mirror.

-- Posted by mrs.v.raney on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 10:14 AM

nursekaki,

Not all of us live in Bedford Co or even Tennessee. That makes a trip into the office a little difficult,don't you think?

-- Posted by gottago on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 10:20 AM

Title of Dwight Lewis' column in today's Tennessean (Thur., Jan 28, 20100). "Letter Writers bear brunt of others' cowardice." Sound familiar? By the way, I know many farmers who have dictionaries, but I guess there are none on "THE" farm. Question! How many fingers does a four-headed monster have to have to type the word veracity, totally and laughably incorrectly, into a piece and call it a typo?

-- Posted by cmcclanahan on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 12:20 PM

I don't know carl how many "journalist" can copy the date correctly "20100" really! You should check your own post. Besides all I ever claimed to be was a dirt turner from outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 12:47 PM

lol

-- Posted by nathan.evans on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 12:53 PM

You know I have seen times when I think this comment section has made a difference. Like with the whole Tyson holiday Samoli thing and so forth.

It is a great way to voice your opinion. I think as long as you are not cursing or naming names you should be allowed to say what you want.

-- Posted by MSK on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 3:37 PM

I beleive that using your real names will cut down on a lot of the mis usage. However, I am sure that we will have names such as Ben Dover, Bill Fold, Justin Case, Pete Moss, ect.

But I really wish the comments were still up.

-- Posted by Amanda Flynn on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 3:41 PM

Corywh I understand and agree that something as simple as a comment in a local newspaper is not admissable in a court of law but you may want to check the requirements on potential jury members and the fact that they must have an open mind when going into a trial. If they have read some of the comments I have seen here there is no possible way they can have an open mind. Sometimes we do not stop and think how seriously our comments may be taken before making them. If I were on trial for rape and my potential jury had been reading comments from people making false statements pointing toward my guilt then I can honestly say I would do everything possible to make sure that jury did not hear my trial as I am sure anyone would. Remember it is still America and we are all still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and not on a website from our local newspaper. Dianatn did a wonderful job of explaining this in her post above and had a great idea on solving this problem.

-- Posted by Karma101 on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 3:56 PM

nathan.evans

while i havent posted personal anything about anyone ive seen it and as far as why i have commented the way i have.. well im not going to let anyone slander someone i knew for almost my entire life after her very untimely death. so yea i got heated... so?

-- Posted by armywife2916 on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 5:15 PM

Where to begin:

A) The topic is to discuss the merit of keeping / restricting / removing the comments section in news stories; that's the whole topic.

B) Irony (and stupidity) abounds in comments thus far: people with archtype names are supporting using real names, people that bash other posters (including on this page) are speaking against trolls, and people are decrying the inclusion of comments on THIS page - I suppose they didn't read the part of the story explaining this.

C) It is up to a Defendant's lawyer to understand the legal system enough to fight for a change of venue, if such is warranted. I know that if I were selected for Jury Duty for an upcoming particular case, I would need to excuse myself, as I believe the accused to be guilty.

D) Anonymity protects from harassment or retribution; rather than repost thoughts on this, visit editor Kent Flannagan's blog on the topic here: http://www.t-g.com/blogs/flanagan/entry/...

E) Flagging works; the problem with user-mob flagging is that it resembles Topix communities, where dissenters can drown an opposing view in votes of "off topic", "clueless" or "nuts" just for stating something that THEY don't like.

F) Tolerance, politeness and comprehension are the key issues here; most of the problem posters seem to be lacking in all three areas. One can incite, dissent and oppose a view without being derisive, slanderous or ignorant of the topic.

G) I actually like the idea of going to the T-G to register an account, but I think you should still be able to register under a pseudonym. For the concern about being from "out of the county", the Shelbyville Times-Gazette is a paper aimed, primarily, at events that affect this community. If you're not in the community, inconveniencing you should be a lesser concern than silencing the entire community.

H) Bloggers; there are set people that are bloggers on this site; perhaps a way for the T-G to handle this issue would be to 'flesh out' user accounts to include links to a user-blog, or allow users to post links to their own off-site blogs; where detailed off-topic rants could take place. Keep the comments section for relevant discussion of the topics separate.

I) think that I am typing too much again...

J) I also liked what another poster suggested about having comments unrestricted for certain types of stories, and moderated for more volatile / criminal cases. I certainly think that some topics should be "locked" from comment after some period, or if that thread keeps being abusive.

K) People need to stop nitpicking spelling errors, and other minor nuances, as if that somehow equates to discrediting the person or the merits of their post(s). Bad spelling offenders may wish to start using a web browser that checks their spelling as they go...

L) Staying on topic is apparently VERT difficult for some people to manage, given the number of comments before this one that are afield from the stated purpose for this thread.

'M) leaving you to ponder that for a bit, and do with it what you will.

-- Posted by Analytical Mindset on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 5:35 PM

s/VERT/VERY

Irony abounds, it seems.

Armywife, I feel ya; but that's not the topic of this thread.

-- Posted by Analytical Mindset on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 5:40 PM

N) People continuing to go off-topic, spill-over attacks on each other from other threads, and using the open-comments of this section to readdress threads closed to comment; do nothing to support the T-G in deciding that their online reader-base will be able to behave as needed, should they resume allowing comments to be posted to news stories.

O) MG, Beckly, look at her .... *dances the Humpty dance*

-- Posted by Analytical Mindset on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 5:45 PM

Alright Mr. Melson, I think you should first interview and seek out the truth of your articles. That would help us. Not for you to write a brandishing torch of an article in order to sell papers but a brandishing torch of an article that tells the truth with a matching headline. After all, isn't that what the newspaper is, a public service? I think we get the real news from our bloggers.

-- Posted by swoosie on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 8:18 PM

outonthefarm,

Are youda the four headed munster hidin behind all dem bushes? :)))))

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 9:09 PM

Who cares if they take comments away on this small town newspaper? There's hardly anything worth reading on it anyways. In the big scheme of things, all this is silly.

-- Posted by lucky13 on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 9:42 PM

For shame. Even now if you will all go back and read why they have ceased the comments section for a while, and then look at all the remarks everyone is making about each other, I'm sure you will see the problem. What good will it do the powers that be at the Gazette, to delete peoples accounts for their bashing and slinging mud and completely getting of topic? They will only come back and resign with another silly name and continue on their merry little ways.

I don't always agree with some of the stories or the way they are written, by good Lord people they are after all only human. And as for all this bull about smearing peoples good names when they are killed or busted for drugs. The newspaper reports the facts they are given by witnesses and police. They do write alleged. Look that word up.It is the people who leave the comments that start the fueding. My Mama always told me that, "There are 3 sides to every story. (1)His Side (2)Her Side (3) The trueside

That goes for any story not just one or 2. A young lady gets killed, what happens? Well I knew her & she was an angel, or I've known him all my life and I don't believe,, blah blah blah.

As for all of you who complain about this small town paper, well if you don't like it, why do you keep reading it? I say keep the comment section after each story. We all have different view points. That's not saying I'm right you're wrong. It's simple as, we all have an opinion. So hush up you're childish arguing and name calling and act like the adults you are supposed to be.

-- Posted by MrsGailCL on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 10:49 PM

P) I wouldn't mind seeing IP addresses attached to posters; at least this would help keep track of who's who when users assume new names to "gang up" on a contributor.

Q) lights, sound, and... ACTION!

R) you seeing the irony, MrsGailCL, in bringing into this thread a specific story, that still is fresh and painful to many of the 'core' posters? That doesn't seem the best way to "act like an adult".

S) suming that all people are presumed innocent under the law, for the record, does not equate to being innocent; even proving innocence in the eyes of the law doesn't mean that someone is innocent; the value to the comments is that perhaps someone with additional information - to whatever case might concern an individual - might realize the gravity of the situation, and be 'inspired' to come forward and bear evidence to the authorities (vs just to the news, seeking their 15 minutes of fame).

T) ns, I'm sure, post to the T-G online comments as well; and well they should. They are members of the community as well, and may impart a perspective that we "adult" contributors had not considered. That also means there may be bouts of "youthful drama" from time to time, but I suspect that if they didn't see adults behaving in such a way, they'd do a better job of restraining themselves, as well. Just like in the 'real world'.

U) do raise some good points, however, and I am inclined to hope that others will endeavor to consider them when they, themselves, choose to post to this thread. :)

-- Posted by Analytical Mindset on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 11:22 PM

Thank you MrsGailCL

-- Posted by avoice on Thu, Jan 28, 2010, at 11:53 PM

I get more information from the blog comments than from the hard copy story. I don't care much for the polite, positive and politically correct stuff. I want the truth. The whole, ugly truth.

If folks don't like anyone talking about someone else, then someone else should stay out of trouble and therefore, out of the local newspaper. ie, jail-intake or whatever. duh?!

Mean comments after a car accident/death are really unnessary, even if truthful.

-- Posted by countrymom on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 7:15 AM

Analytical Mindset,

Is it taking you almost six hours to figure out P thru U follows N and O? Let me help you out. Next comes V,W,X,Y and then Z.

I noticed on one of the other blogs people were seeming to notice you might not be aware as how to use the scroll button. I'll be glad to help you with that also if you want. :))))

On a more serious note, you have presented some good points the T-G might consider in your alphabet recitation.

Just don't over analyze my overly simple opinion. :)

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 9:11 AM

The truth of any crime is discussed in a court of law not on an internet website. If you seek the truth then go to the court room, if you have valid information about a crime seek the justice system, after all that is what they are for.

Keep in mind just because someone is arrested for a crime does not mean they are guilty.

Gossip is not truth and gossip hurts a lot of innocent people.

-- Posted by Dianatn on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 10:44 AM

DON'T FORGET THAT MANY BLOGGERS ARE WRITING BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN HURT BY FALSE STORIES AND COMMENTS IN RESPONSE TO THEM. WE NEED THE TRUTH FROM THE AUTHORS AND NOT THE HYPE FOR SALES.FROM THAT STANDPOINT ANYTHING IS NEWS IF THEY CAN DRESS IT UP.

-- Posted by swoosie on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 11:47 AM

oh analytical mindset... you again...yay for joy... if you read the comments before that one that you must ever so point out as being off topic then you would know i was responding to something directed to me..but as always you dont pay attention to anything..

-- Posted by armywife2916 on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 1:35 PM

Interesting how one faux farmer, who bedazzled us and fousted upon the world his rendition of why all grammatical errors or errors of syntax perpretrated by any of his personas are merely an acceptable and innocent typo.

He is so easy to lead on. Example above, he is quick to point out and ridicule an obvious, and in this case purposely displayed, typo and implies it analgous to his gross misuse of a word that is obviously not in his vocabulary.

I rest my case that this person is not as he hopes to have you believe, a polymath. Not now and never to be.

-- Posted by cmcclanahan on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 4:37 PM

Interesting how one faux farmer.....

Posted by cmcclanahan on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 4:37 PM

Would owning 40 acres on Wartrace Pike qualify as farming???

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 7:17 PM

I am # 85!!!!!!!

-- Posted by Brett Favre on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 7:38 PM

Then I am # 86 !!!!!!!

-- Posted by Brett Favre on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 7:40 PM

Now I will be #87 !!!!!!!!

-- Posted by Brett Favre on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 7:41 PM

Now I am 88, cause that was my highschool number. Thats great, because 88 is great.

I was the best tight end on my team up in Illinios. At that small town, called S.......ca.

There is no solution to this blogging issue.

-- Posted by Brett Favre on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 7:45 PM

I thought you was the Kipper?

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 8:56 PM

Go retire Brett Favre

-- Posted by lucky13 on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 9:57 PM

Interesting how one faux farmer, who bedazzled us and fousted upon the world his rendition of why all grammatical errors or errors of syntax perpretrated by any of his personas are merely an acceptable and innocent typo.

He is so easy to lead on. Example above, he is quick to point out and ridicule an obvious, and in this case purposely displayed, typo and implies it analgous to his gross misuse of a word that is obviously not in his vocabulary.

I rest my case that this person is not as he hopes to have you believe, a polymath. Not now and never to be.

-- Posted by cmcclanahan on Fri, Jan 29, 2010, at 4:37 PM

Never claimed to be a polymath and much as you do not like it I am not ponyboy or witness. Just a dirt turner with a high school education. However, with "fousted" [foisted], perpretrated [perpetrated] and "analgous" [analogous] misspelled ( according to Merriam-Webster Dictionary) in your witty and oh so arrogant reply what does that make you my purported lexicographer? Or is this yet another ACME corporation trap set for ..... outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Sat, Jan 30, 2010, at 2:09 AM

Wow and all this. But I am going to miss the comments, even thought some are childish and other things which I don't need to say. I hope they come back soon even if I have to post my real name.

-- Posted by toad on Sat, Jan 30, 2010, at 6:14 AM

"I get more information from the blog comments than from the hard copy story. I don't care much for the polite, positive and politically correct stuff. I want the truth. The whole, ugly truth."

isnt this really the crux of the problem? some people have no better sense than to recognize these "blogs" for what they are, a very public way to disseminate malicious gossip. the reason the "hard copy story" is less satisfying for many is that the story's contents must be verifiable as true. getting the "truth" is certainly desireable, but people who want the "whole, ugly truth" tend to have more desire for "ugly" than "truth".

-- Posted by lazarus on Sat, Jan 30, 2010, at 9:53 AM

Seems strange that this occured when we were making comments about john norton and ritchie roger, who wants to make a bet a skunk is on the loose.

-- Posted by tmixer5@gmail.com on Sat, Jan 30, 2010, at 2:49 PM

Well the liberals at the times gazette have voiced there options. And now we the Good people of Bedford County have another reason why the ones with money and power in this county have flexed there muscles. So if the blogs are not what we the readers and who subscribe to the paper

Cannot like I do about the illegal aliens I will have too take my chance and write a letter and just have it thrown in the trash at the T-G.

Freedom of speech means that Gentleman. Yes there is copy write material copied from news articles and pasted in your comments section. I have seen it. There are programs that can prevent that or limit your words to certain number of words or characters in each comment section. But throw it away is to limit the first amendment. This president in office now wants that done anyway. Why should you go along with him? Just cut down the too 500 words or less and the commenter can start a new comment. And in lynxes for windows every story copied (I.E. API, WSJ, NYT,) has an identifier embedded in there story. it can block that. Check it out. But for all in Bedford County VERY much enjoy the chance to comment about the stories at hand. Do not diminish that please.

-- Posted by american patrol minuteman on Mon, Feb 1, 2010, at 12:18 AM

I appreciate you removing the comments section on news stories. I recognize that you have probably received a lot of backlash from some who perceive this decision as an infringement on their rights to freedom of speech. Obviously you haven't prevented them from expressing themselves, and you certainly have no obligation to provide them with an outlet for gossip (which is generally what is written).

I am especially appreciative of this change for stories that deal specifically with criminal cases. In such a small town, rumors and gossip are sure to ensue when something interesting happens, but it should not be facilitated by a newspaper that is considered to be reputable. It is extremely likely that some people will accept the comments as actual news. Furthermore, it is extremely hard for the families of victims (and even the accused) to read some of the hurtful comments that people will write.

Again, I want to express my sincere gratitude for removing the comment section. If you want to attempt to please some people, I would suggest that you could just be selective about where you allow comments. Personally I feel like cases where gossip could be harmful (such as criminal cases) should not be allowed. You could possibly allow comments in political stories or stories that involve changes in the community. Political freedom of speech carries the most protection by the Constitution anyway, so it seems appropriate for people to be allowed to comment on those stories.

-- Posted by squirm on Mon, Feb 1, 2010, at 11:14 AM

I really enjoyed reading all of the comments.Every morning I would check them out with my coffee. I really hope you bring them back.I agree that bad words and gossip should not be put on the comments. But I believe that we all know the gossip from the truth and just read it and blow it off.I know that with criminal cases it is hard for some people not to speak out cause they are hurt and mad. Maybe you can set it up to were we can comment on things BUT not put it online until it is approved to be ok to put it with the comments like they due with some of the funeral homes were you can write in when you know the person that has passed away and it will not show up until it has been approved ok.I really hope it comes back cause we all do not say bad and ugly things.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Mon, Feb 1, 2010, at 11:48 AM

If you screen it then we are playing into obamas plan also, his administration wants to do away with free speech, so the truth does not get out. If you screen it and only print what seems to be politically correct then lets ignore the constitution. I agree that most of us are adult enought to read between the lines when it comes to criminal investigation comments. Just like some of us can read between the line and realize someone is being stepped on and the truth is harming their case and they want to put a stop to these comments.

-- Posted by tmixer5@gmail.com on Mon, Feb 1, 2010, at 12:15 PM

*smirks at somecommonsense* Hey now, you know what I was doing there... cute retort, though. ;p

I like the alphabet use for the opportunity to make REALLY bad puns...

And thanks, btw, for the reminder not to over-analyze; as I'm guilty of that sometimes (No.. really...?)

Answering something you posted to another, owning 40 acres doesn't make you a farmer; farming it does. ;)

But I didn't see that, as I don't pay attention to anything (though, clearly, precisely the opposite is true...). (aw)

Responding to other people trying to lower the comments section into schoolyard name-calling, or baiting matches, doesn't exactly to much to keep it from being relegated from comments to mindless rants (yes, I recognize that I've participated in these, as well).

Ideally, by reading other, more mature comments, we reflect on our own contributions (or lack thereof), and temper them in the future.

"Well the liberals at the times gazette have voiced there options." -- Sadly, this was the only sentence I clearly understood in this post; except I can't fathom how the T-G is considered a LIBERAL newspaper...

"Well, you know that liberal paper the Washington Post recently said..."

"If you screen it then we are playing into obamas plan also, his administration wants to do away with free speech, so the truth does not get out." -- Obama's administration does that? Wow, that IS news! I'm so glad we have this comment section so that I could learn this! I had not seen it anywhere else! Oh, the value of it all! (Yeah, the man advocating oversight on EVERY government program; he's the one that doesn't want the truth to get out...)

"If you screen it and only print what seems to be politically correct then lets ignore the constitution." -- If by "politically correct" you mean being polite and respectful to other people, how is that an impingement on freedom of speech? Freedom of Speech does have restrictions and limits of application...

"It is extremely likely that some people will accept the comments as actual news. Furthermore, it is extremely hard for the families of victims (and even the accused) to read some of the hurtful comments that people will write." -- Well said; even well meaning people sometimes release information about a criminal story that hurts the prosecution of it down the road, as the facts become blurred by the perceptions stemming from the rumor mill.

What "squirm" notes about restricting comments has been echoed by several of us; I'm personally hopeful that the T-G will take this into consideration. The problem becomes, as reflected in this comments section, is that even if you restrict WHERE people can post, how do you restrict WHAT people post TO that section?

Here already a few people have back-commented to news stories, since they can't directly comment on them at the present time. Such things do nothing to demonstrate to the Times-Gazette staff that we are capable of using this service in a non-inflammatory manner. Which is a shame, as community input is useful to the paper, the local politicians, and to the community in understanding itself.

-- Posted by Analytical Mindset on Mon, Feb 1, 2010, at 2:56 PM

....." community input is useful to the paper, the local politicians, and to the community in understanding itself."

-- Posted by Analytical Mindset on Mon, Feb 1, 2010, at 2:56 PM

I agree farming land makes you a farmer, however owning a farm makes you from..........outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Mon, Feb 1, 2010, at 3:35 PM

Remember hearing in our younger days (for some of us) Sticks and Stones may break my bones but words will never Hurt me. Yes some people may comment and say hurtful things but you just read it and go on and you will come across someones comment that will make you feel alot better.Always keep your head held high and if you know that you are right and live a good life that is all that matters is how you believe in yourself.There has been times that I have learned some things from the comments. I don't get out alot except to run to the store once or twice a week. I always look forward to the comments cause it is like talking to friends.Just maybe with this time away from the comments it will let people think about what they do comment about and if we get it back then we will be careful with what we say. Please give us another chance with it.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Mon, Feb 1, 2010, at 6:12 PM

With regard to the concern that the whole story isn't being reported, and that people may have additional information, there is a "Respond to editor" link at the top of every story... submit the info to them, they can follow-up to determine the facts, and then report on them in a way that even print-only recipients can review. :)

-- Posted by Analytical Mindset on Mon, Feb 1, 2010, at 6:14 PM

T-G, Since you started this blogging thing about three years ago (?) do you know how many user-names have registered for this?

vs

how many paid delivery subscriptions?

vs

how many paid delivery subscriptions have cancelled or just never renewed?

Just wondering? and will you post the answer here?

-- Posted by mmp84 on Wed, Feb 3, 2010, at 1:41 PM

Just realized that I don't even read the stories without the comment ability.

-- Posted by gottago on Wed, Feb 3, 2010, at 5:17 PM

Here are what I see as the two major problems we've had (and I've also removed comments for these reasons).

1. Individuals misusing the site to launch personal, highly insulting attacks on their perceived "enemies," then complaining about "freedom of speech" when those comments are removed. Our terms of service don't allow such comments.

2. Individuals who make totally incorrect claims in connection with news stories.

-- Posted by David Melson on Wed, Jan 27, 2010, at 7:59 AM

I agree with your comments in part. But would offer this. If the originator of a blog would not "drift" off topic or allow "friends" to move it off point then many of the retaliatory comments would have never been made. I have no doubt that some of my comments in response to assertions made by some have caused the forum to be constricted to its current form. Prior to reading attacks on some that would disagree with others. I simply read the comments and gave the the weight, or lack thereof, they deserved and went on my way. Since such issues no longer exist then I think it has resolved itself. But if anyone is allowed to use a blog as a electronic bully pulpit then the paper should expect a countering response. Just saying from.......outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Wed, Feb 3, 2010, at 8:49 PM

Every day I check to see if we have our comments back. Maybe some news if we are going to get them back or not. I am still hoping that we do. I enjoyed 80% of them.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Thu, Feb 4, 2010, at 9:40 AM

bring back the comment section i enjoyed too!

-- Posted by lonewolf2110 on Thu, Feb 4, 2010, at 3:44 PM

I hate to admit it, but it does not bother me at all that the comments have been disabled, at least until a better and more uniform control can be instituted. I have not even logged on here for a couple of weeks from my sheer disgust at some of the sentiments being expressed within many of the comments.

It is not necessarily the opinions that bother me, as much as it is the brutal nature of their delivery. There seems to be a mob mentality that develops in these forums that appears to have less to do with honest opinion and dialogue, and is more characteristic of choosing sides to in order to wage battles of wills. There will be no victors emerging from any of those battles, but I imagine the list of casualties is already a long one. The casualties are the very real faces of those in our community, and their loved ones, who have had to endure the humiliation of very public scrutiny, judgment, and some instances, the outright contempt of those who cannot be held accountable for their words, or defended against.

Free speech is not free. It never has been, and it likely never will be in the future. The T-G is not under any obligation to publish anyone's comments, and particularly the asinine. If you want to exercise your right of free speech, then by all means, go buy your own soapbox. In the meantime, I hope the T-G keeps the comment option removed from news stories (maybe not the opinion pieces) until a clear and effective solution presents itself.

On a remotely related side note, I hate that Mr. McClanahan's blog was rescinded. Perhaps if some clarity concerning appropriate behavior were already in place, his position as a T-G blogger could have been spared? If so, I do not see how a well-intentioned second chance with fresh guidelines could hurt anyone.

-- Posted by memyselfi on Fri, Feb 5, 2010, at 5:40 AM

He had more than one chance; he had been warned previous to the incident that causes us to suspend his blog.

We're aware that people can get caught up in the heat of discussion and normally dealt with such situations by deleting the offending post or comment on the first such offense.

-- Posted by Jicarney on Fri, Feb 5, 2010, at 11:46 AM

My subscription is up for renewal and I will NOT be renewing it. Something bothers me about voices being "silenced". I would think a newspaper would be all about allowing all viewpoints to be heard. By allowing "hand picked" bloggers you are not allowing the rest of us to express our viewpoints. This is your website, your newspaper and your right to take away the comments section...however, I have the choice whether or not I subscribe to your paper.

-- Posted by hemmaw on Sat, Feb 6, 2010, at 4:51 PM

I really don't see what the big deal is.

Enough of this...restore the comments. You don't see the DNJ, Tennessean, or USA Today suspending comments and those posters get much more belligerent than the T-G posters.

-- Posted by gottago on Sun, Feb 7, 2010, at 10:32 AM

My goodness when are you guys going to let us know if you are going to bring back the comments or not. It seems like you have had enough time to decided if you are going to do it or not. I keep checking every day. Please bring it back. I believe that there are alot more people out there that enjoyed it as much as I did.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, at 11:50 AM

gottago...What is the DNJ? It maybe something that I would enjoy.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, at 11:52 AM

We are still studying the situation, and had a meeting on it just today. It's a complicated issue, depending on which direction we decide to go. There are technological things that have to be decided, legal things that have to be checked, and what have you.

-- Posted by Jicarney on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, at 2:20 PM

rebelrose.....,

It's the Murfreesboro paper. They're not having comment issues.

-- Posted by gottago on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, at 3:53 PM

Rebelrose,

DNJ stands for Daily News Journal.

-- Posted by gottago on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, at 3:55 PM

This is approaching high drama.

-- Posted by tatersue on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, at 5:33 PM

gottago..Thank You..I went to the Tennesean and got signed up on there. Why is it after all this time now the paper has pulled our comments away and are having legal things and they are having alot of technological things. Why now. I don't understand that at all.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, at 6:09 PM

We are still studying the situation, and had a meeting on it just today. It's a complicated issue, depending on which direction we decide to go. There are technological things that have to be decided, legal things that have to be checked, and what have you.

-- Posted by Jicarney on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, at 2:20 PM

Would it be possible to have a subscription to the paper in order to comment on a news story and then each person wishing to blog or comment would be issued a user account, name or code.

That way a modicum of anonymity can be maintained and enforcement of the TOS would be possible. This would also allow those who feel slighted, slandered or otherwise ticked to have a method to find those doing so.

I am not sure if the paper utilizes some form of vetting system for the bloggers who would start a string. If not the funds from the subscriptions could cover the cost of doing so. That would limit the exposure of the paper possible from a bloggers comments.

Just a thought from ...outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, at 9:42 PM

That way a modicum of anonymity can be maintained and enforcement of the TOS would be possible. This would also allow those who feel slighted, slandered or otherwise ticked to have a method to find those doing so.

Posted by outonthefarm on Tue, Feb 9, 2010, at 9:42 PM

Looks like it should be more important to correct the behaviour that got the toes stepped on as to knowing who stepped on them. If the toes were not stuck out there no one would step on them.

What would knowing who stepped on them do? Give you an outlet to threaten them for giving their opinion if it disagrees with yours in order to silence them?

Work on where you stick your toes and you will not have to worry about "who" stepped on them.

Just my little opinion.

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, at 6:47 PM

I agree with you somecommonsense to a certain extent. Sometimes though it is so crowded that the toes of innocent people get mashed the worse.

-- Posted by Dianatn on Wed, Feb 10, 2010, at 6:56 PM

somecommonsense you made the statement...

"Looks like it should be more important to correct the behaviour that got the toes stepped on as to knowing who stepped on them. If the toes were not stuck out there no one would step on them."

Then I answered....

Would people having to stand behind their laminations, witticisms and puffery cause you angst? Should you, me or anyone not have to be held to answer for their "opinion" if stated as "fact"?

If you are ever accused by name in the paper and a anonymous or know , know it all, attacks, slanders and flat out lies on you do you want the right to respond in court?

Then you ask....

"What would knowing who stepped on them do? Give you an outlet to threaten them for giving their opinion if it disagrees with yours in order to silence them?"

Then I answered....

It would allow them to be held accountable in court for anything that damages, liable, slanders or harms. (You would think after all you bravado about folks hiding in the bushes and stoning folks you would embrace my suggestions). An no to the second part of the question. Anyone (including me ) has a right to voice an opinion. But no one has a right to imply guilt, a crime, or tell an out right lie. If they do then the courts should silence them. Surely you know that the First Amendment does not allow one to say just anything about anyone that is not true.

Now, since i responded to your questions, can you take a dose of your own medicine?

"Work on where you stick your toes and you will not have to worry about "who" stepped on them." that could translate into "work on where you stick your two cents and not worry about who will challenge it as fact"

Oh , just a friendly word of advice, (it is worth what you paid for it). If I were you I would double check my spelling, punctuation and grammar or you may be accused of not being the "polymath" you would purport to be. Then someone will attempt to make a laudable statement in a poor attempt to point out your faults with a lot of misspelled words. Then rest his case.

It is obvious you still don't get it and probably never will, but I will defer to the comment by Dianatn "....Sometimes though it is so crowded that the toes of innocent people get mashed the worse."

If that is not enough of a clue then this will be. Many talk about "leading" folks to draw them out. Others attempt to claim that they really wanted to shut the blog down to "force" , "real" names to be placed with each post. My task was to prove that I would rather be "grouped" in with "know nothing pundits" than to attempt to claim I was all knowing and powerful wizard of OZ. I did what I set out to do. The wizard is gone. The pundits discovered they were "smart" all alone, the proclaimed "coward" was alway a lion and the tin man will be found to have a heart. Just be sure to carry a oil can with you till you find the end of the yellow brick road.

By the way thanks for your opinion from ...outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, at 12:14 AM

outonthefarm,

It is easy to see both sides of the issue. I have actually brought up issues that support both sides in the recent past. And I can actually say that if the choice was left to me I would require comments to only be posted with identity. However there are downfalls to that also but I still think in the long run identity should be required.

Of coarse that is just the opinion of a fellow "know nothing pundit".

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, at 8:47 AM

Of coarse that is just the opinion of a fellow "know nothing pundit".

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, at 8:47 AM

I knew we had something in common......you may be from ...outonthefarm..

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Thu, Feb 11, 2010, at 9:51 AM

Us "know nothing pundits" can come from outoffthe farm and outonthefarm. Pundits are like Underdog, they are everywhere.

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Fri, Feb 12, 2010, at 7:32 AM

Us "know nothing pundits" can come from outoffthe farm and outonthefarm. Pundits are like Underdog, they are everywhere.

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Fri, Feb 12, 2010, at 7:32 AM

How true.....outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Sat, Feb 13, 2010, at 8:45 AM

Has anyone heard if we are going to get the comments back?? My goodness it has been a long time now. We wait and wait to see what they are going to do. Making me madder than a short person with a yoyo.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, at 7:00 AM
Response by John Carney:
We're still studying. There were a couple of meetings late last week at which the editor and publisher were going to have a chance to talk to people from other papers. We haven't heard how either of those went yet. Meanwhile, we have to continue to do our regular jobs putting out the newspaper. We would rather put something in that's going to be right than rush and put in something that's going to be as bad as, or worse than, what we had.

.....and put in something that's going to be as bad as, or worse than, what we had.

Response by John Carney

-----------------------

That would require some effort to top.

-- Posted by somecommonsense on Mon, Feb 15, 2010, at 2:12 PM

Did we do something wrong for you to just take it away from us without giving us a warning about it 1st? It has been since Jan 27th I believe. I feel like we have been treated like school children that acted bad in the lunch room and had our outside or play time taken away. Something that we enjoyed.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Tue, Feb 16, 2010, at 5:47 AM

Did we do something wrong for you to just take it away from us without giving us a warning about it 1st? It has been since Jan 27th I believe. I feel like we have been treated like school children that acted bad in the lunch room and had our outside or play time taken away. Something that we enjoyed.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Tue, Feb 16, 2010, at 5:47 AM

I agree with you, rebelrose, there could have been a warning.

There were a few discussions I would have liked to wrap up.

-- Posted by gottago on Tue, Feb 16, 2010, at 9:18 AM

Well just checking to see if there was any news today.I see there is not. They say no news is good news. I don't believe that goes along with this. I would have loved to make a comment to the Dickson family that lost their little son and grandson and father and grandfather in the reck. To let them know that I was so sorry to hear that had happen and they are in my prayers and thoughts. Why is it that I feel they took the comments away after Niles killed his son's mother and so many of us got heated up over it?

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Wed, Feb 17, 2010, at 10:04 AM

We will probably never know rebelrosecountrymom,

I personally feel like David Melson's old aunt getting upset over a slang term had something to do with it.

My neighbors and I were "discussing" our subscription also. Won't be renewing either but we all share if we pick up one at the store to keep up with Community's sports/kids and etc.

-- Posted by countrymom on Wed, Feb 17, 2010, at 1:44 PM

Same here countrymom....I must of missed that one with the slang term. How can one person stop something that so many of us enjoyed to read and comment on? There were more good comments than there were bad ones. Like a bag of dried beans...you open the bag and go thru the beans and pick out the bad ones and enjoy the rest of the good ones.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Wed, Feb 17, 2010, at 4:17 PM

Yep, rebelrose, looks like you were right on the removal of comments.

-- Posted by gottago on Fri, Feb 19, 2010, at 8:37 PM

Gee I think I am missing something that was here but on longer is. Was there not a comment on here that is now gone or I am I losing it and think there was one and never was ? I just know I read a comment last nite that was on here and I made a comment back to him and now they are both gone. Oh boy I hope this is not a sign that I am losing my train of thought or seeing things.Oh well just checking to see if there was any news on our comments. at least I think that was what I was doing. Not real sure now since i thought I read a comment last nite that is no longer here.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Fri, Feb 19, 2010, at 9:46 PM

Your comment that was removed actually mentioned the removal of comments LOL. It WAS there - you're not crazy.

-- Posted by gottago on Sat, Feb 20, 2010, at 2:19 PM

I am disgusted by the Times Gazettes policy that takes away the blog section for each article that the Times Gazette posts online.

It appears to me that this newspaper wishes to control our thoughts and our ability to express our thoughts.

In other words the Times Gazette is taking away our freedom of speech.

Pathetic, Times Gazette, shame on you and whoever is continuing on with this policy.

-- Posted by Brett Favre on Sat, Feb 20, 2010, at 7:29 PM

LOL How on earth does stopping comments on news articles control your thoughts? Did you stop thinking when people stopped posting their opinions?

Like I said I could care less one way or the other just curious how your thoughts have been controled.

-- Posted by Dianatn on Sat, Feb 20, 2010, at 11:40 PM

gottago...Thank you for letting me know that it was there. I thought about it several times during the day yesterday. Even thought maybe I dreamed it. I don't mind they removed it. But it did feel odd that it was there and then it wasn't there. Made me worry a little that maybe I just thought it was there.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, at 6:00 AM

Brett Favre,

I agree with you.

Nothing that was said in any of the comments was worse than what is said on other newspaper sites and those papers remove offending remarks and leave the rest alone. There certainly is never any threat of removing them.

Even the mild comments made by 'rebelrose' and other poster were removed.

-- Posted by gottago on Sun, Feb 21, 2010, at 8:43 AM

Good morning... just checking to see if there is any news.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, at 9:57 AM

outonthefarm....I don't think we are suppose to comment on anything on here but the comments. I did so last week and it was removed. So be careful what you say....Mr. Carney ..If we get our comments back and you need a proof reader for them then I need a extra job.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Tue, Feb 23, 2010, at 10:46 PM

I expected the comment to be deleted. It is of no great concern. Considering my comments in the past and the numorus comments I have flagged I am suprised it stayed up long at all. In the mean time I will continue to blog n face book. From outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Wed, Feb 24, 2010, at 12:58 PM

Still no comments?

No comment!

-- Posted by Midnight Rider on Wed, Mar 3, 2010, at 5:51 AM

Here's a new thought to throw into the mix:

Pro-gay groups are demanding, citing the Freedom of Information act that names and addresses of supporters of a proposal which would repeal a Washington state law giving same-sex partners the same rights as married couples. Their stated goal, according to Liberty Counsel, is to confront petition signers.

"Releasing the identities of petition signers would violate the First Amendment, because it would result in the suppression of protected speech," Liberty Counsel said in a brief filed with the U.S. Supreme Court, "It would make these voters vulnerable to harassment because of their political choice and would have a significant chill on freedom of speech."

How does this affect your thoughts on the ability to voice opinions anonymously, including comments on a web site?

-- Posted by David Melson on Thu, Mar 4, 2010, at 9:31 AM

It doesn't change my opinions one bit. While I believe that malicious gossip and slander have no place on the comments page, it is a forum where rebuttals are allowed and, if conducted civilly, the party feeling slighted can defend himself.

There are cases where the worst of the comments should be removed. They are the exception.

Now about the exanple you provided: While I personally support the effort of equal rights for same-sex couples, I find this particular action disturbing. The opposing viewpoint has every right, every responsiblity, to petetion for change as each of us has the same right to petition our government on issues one deems mportant. Never should information about these petitioners be released.

Counsel's statement is correct.

To the T-G. We are approaching 6 weeks since the comments were removed. That does give you ample time to figure out the 'comment problem'. Again, I'm amazed how other news publications have no difficulty with comments, but the T-G acts as if the issue is mired controversy and can't act.

Advice, either excrete or get off the pot.

-- Posted by gottago on Sun, Mar 7, 2010, at 8:48 AM

I believe that the comments want come back any time soon until a certain trail is over. So we are looking at a year or more if it does come back. I guess I am going to give up checking it out to see if there is any new news. It was great reading everyone comments and chating with you all.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Mon, Mar 8, 2010, at 8:19 AM

I could make a desion on the comment section by now.

Come on and make a desion!

Maybe we all should call the paper every hour and ask "Whats the hold up?",just a thought, lol.

-- Posted by lonewolf2110 on Mon, Mar 8, 2010, at 2:37 PM

I believe that the comments want come back any time soon until a certain trail is over. So we are looking at a year or more if it does come back. I guess I am going to give up checking it out to see if there is any new news. It was great reading everyone comments and chating with you all.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Mon, Mar 8, 2010, at 8:19 AM

Could you expand that thought? I would like to know where you think the issue comes from....just a question from outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Tue, Mar 9, 2010, at 4:05 PM

outonthefarm...They cut off the comments soon after the last court date of the Niles boy going to court. The comments were getting pretty heated about that time. I felt that they may had cut out the comments at that time to keep from being sued. I am not even sure if they could be sued. Just a thought from me.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Tue, Mar 9, 2010, at 5:54 PM

That trial may have been a part of it but there was drama going on with other stories,too. There was an accusation of insurance fraud regarding a certain fire, allegations of misconduct among former city officials, and likely others of which I am unaware.

The simplest solution in such cases is to remove the offending comments and leave the others alone.

I have never heard of newspapers getting sued over comments regarding news stories or of newspaper comments halted to prevent contamination of juries.

In the end, this is just bizarre to me.

-- Posted by gottago on Tue, Mar 9, 2010, at 6:27 PM

gottago..I also feel it is bizarre..odd..unlike any other paper I have known and a little stupid. Just my thought but I believe it has something to do also with who knows who at the paper and city officials. Just my thought.

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Tue, Mar 9, 2010, at 7:49 PM

I sure would like to put my comments on 2 things in the paper today. Darn!!!

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Wed, Mar 10, 2010, at 4:22 PM

"..........just a thought from me."

-- Posted by rebelrosecountrymom on Tue, Mar 9, 2010, at 5:54 PM

Understand the theory. And, I will, add this is America you can sue anyone for just about anything. The question is, does the merit of the claims with stand the system. I have seen many in the past that, in my opinion, could. I have also been one to flag a comment or blogger that I felt stepped over certain lines. But, anyone could have done the same. I feel the problem is that some, commentaries will avail themselves to the open forum to, attack others for personal reason aside from the original story for which the threat was started. For what it is worth, I do not think the judiciary has anything to do with the closure. I think that the paper wants to evaluate their exposure to a civil suit that would be based on opinions, or comments incited by a blogger by the use of his or her position with the paper. Now, I do not know how long the paper will leave an opinion like this in place. it is just a thought from .....outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Thu, Mar 11, 2010, at 9:53 AM

The problem with the comments section-----in my opinion!-----gives everyone a chance to bash those that they don't know or could really careless about. And yes I am guilty of that, too!

I am also ashamed of the way that I have acted.

Glad to see it gone! Hope it never returns!

If each and everyone of you would go back through all of the comments and see how you have attacked one another MAYBE then you would see how stupid it is and just give it up. You didn't need it before it was here why get so uptight about it being gone.Save your opinions for the supper table. Then maybe we all can find someone that would be interested in what we have to say.

-- Posted by truckindaddy on Sun, Mar 14, 2010, at 8:53 AM

truckindaddy..... I would agree in general. The issue of all the responses be they negative or not is when a person is the target of a attack the will defend themselves. If the powers in charge had done a better job of vetting their bloggers then I for one would never of post. I have said it before. If the comments stay then find, if not the so be it. It's just another opinion from .... Outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Wed, Mar 17, 2010, at 9:03 PM

Oh what comments would we see about Bart Gordon's turnabout? The millions of medicaide directed Tennessee's way had nothing to do with it? Doubtful, even though he says it did not influence him. So far, I am unable to find his reason other than it will now "benefit us better.

Bart Gordon has always been a fairly good representative, but now I will always remember him as the representative who turned his back on his constituents at the last moment. The only question remaining is this, What was the price of his vote?

-- Posted by Midnight Rider on Fri, Mar 19, 2010, at 9:39 PM

Bart is following party lines. I also once thought he was of the people and for the people. But like many illusions they soon fade. I think everyone that works regardless of party that does not agree with the obamacare bull should go on strike.a day of silnce from the masses should send a loud message. Just a thought from. Outonthefarm

-- Posted by outonthefarm on Fri, Mar 26, 2010, at 11:46 AM

GUESS THE COMMENT SECTION IS DEAD!!!

-- Posted by lonewolf2110 on Tue, Apr 13, 2010, at 11:52 AM

Ummm ... people ... really? Really? Do you think that the TG eliminating the posting of comments is infringing on your free speech rights? Free speech means just that, you can say what you want. That doesn't mean any media outlet has to give you a way to say it. Otherwise you could say that the billboard company infringes on your free speech rights by not giving you free billboard space on which to state your opinions, gossip, ideas, or other "speech". What did you do for "free speech" before this function existed, or before the Internet existed? Duh.

-- Posted by Ragin'Cajun on Tue, Apr 13, 2010, at 1:35 PM

mr thomas needs to "rehab" in jail i think

just my opion

-- Posted by lonewolf2110 on Sun, Apr 25, 2010, at 2:19 PM


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