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Bedford Ramblings
Steve Mills

At what point does someone breaking the law become responsible for what happens during that event?

Posted Wednesday, December 3, 2014, at 9:05 PM
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  • If the planned illegal activity is a felony. It's called felony murder.

    -- Posted by quietmike on Thu, Dec 4, 2014, at 1:08 AM
  • I checked out misdemeanor activities and apparently death during that is not as frequent but still a serious offense.

    So if I am doing either form of illegal activity and a death results I am charged with that death, regardless of my original intent, yes?

    -- Posted by stevemills on Thu, Dec 4, 2014, at 8:10 AM
  • You could also be charged with reckless homicide if a reasonable person would have believed that activity would likely result in someone's death.

    -- Posted by quietmike on Thu, Dec 4, 2014, at 2:22 PM
  • So.... if I am involved in illegal activity and I get killed, I have some culpability?

    If I resist arrest, I have brought on some of this myself?

    How hard should an officer try to arrest me? Just a little or enough to get me under control?

    If it is just a little, doesn't the officer take the chance of being injured or killed?

    -- Posted by stevemills on Fri, Dec 5, 2014, at 1:12 PM
  • Absolutely. If you resist and are killed, your actions are the proximate cause of your death.

    I always ask people, If I go to Yellowstone park and poke a grizzly bear in the butt with a stick, is the bear more responsible for my subsequent mauling, or is my stupidity?

    Sure cops are sometimes wrong or overzealous, but the time to sort that out is in the courtroom, not on the street.

    -- Posted by quietmike on Sat, Dec 6, 2014, at 10:12 AM
  • Exactly where I stand quietmike. I regret ANY death (except maybe cold blooded killers) but these recent deaths were initiated by unlawful acts on the part of the ones who died.

    I would bet that most law enforcement officers would acknowledge that things get out of hand at times but they live/work in such a volatile environment. Too bad there is not a way to let everyone experience the "edge" they live on before they judge their actions.

    -- Posted by stevemills on Sat, Dec 6, 2014, at 2:34 PM
  • Huh? Jaywalking is a death sentence? Selling a single cigarette is a death sentence?

    -- Posted by Evil Monkey on Mon, Dec 8, 2014, at 12:47 PM
  • I'm thinking that conclusion is a bit extreme. Their

    actions after the original act (resisting arrest) is what caused the officers to react and possibly fear for their own well being.

    How is an officer to judge an aggressive person attacking them? Wait Until they have been stabbed, knocked

    unconscious, shot or something else?

    I wouldn't wait to see how bad that person can harm me before

    I defend myself.

    -- Posted by stevemills on Mon, Dec 8, 2014, at 3:46 PM
  • Sorry for the broken sentences. The above post was written with thumbs (and it looks like it) on my cell phone.

    -- Posted by stevemills on Mon, Dec 8, 2014, at 8:50 PM
  • Government is force. If a law isn't worthy of force, then perhaps that law isn't necessary.

    -- Posted by quietmike on Tue, Dec 9, 2014, at 4:25 PM
  • Interesting question quietmike.

    I would not want to be shot for a 'rolling stop' or tail light out, but how I respond to such a traffic violation could change the situation dramatically.

    If I evade being stopped the officer would justifiably think I am guilty of something much more. Drugs, child abduction, etc.

    Still unknown,and maybe I have an emergency in the car so no need to shoot me, but if I put others in imminent danger?, if I try to run down the officer, or maybe just make threatening gestures that makes the officer think I could overpower them?

    Then a simple tail light stop, or shoplifting, etc. turns into a potentially deadly event. If the officer shoots me and happens to be another race from me, is it a case of racial profiling, or revenge for some other perceived injustice?

    Probably not. I was just stupid.

    -- Posted by stevemills on Thu, Dec 11, 2014, at 8:40 AM
  • 1- our officers should be better trained to handle aggressive people than a grizzly bear is, 2- it seems that we are having these issues of cops killing a lot more than before we had the "military" mentality and the guns rights disputes we have now. ( lets not turn this into a gun rights post please) and 3-what happened to innocent till proven guilty vrs the lynch um now ask question later mentality.

    Awhile back I was in a conversation about how when the troops start coming back they will be going into the police force and the person commented that it would be a huge problem for our country because they will be bringing "war time" control training instead of "police force" training to our streets. They will be acting like military enforcers rather than peace keepers in our communities, treating suspects and citizens like the enemy rather than our neighbors.. That they will be acting as tough they are in a war zone, they will have the aggressive attitudes used towards the enemy which will start the exchange with a very different attitude and cause the situations to turn aggressive much faster. They explained that once this started happening that we can expect the tension to grow between the citizens and officers and both to be on edge expecting violence with every encounter because neither will TRUST the other. The prediction is coming true.

    While not all police are military, the ,military mentality is creeping in. We are seeing and hearing of more and more overly aggressive officers who seem to be on some ego trip of ME Boss you listen, followed by the thumping of the chest (mentality) which in turn is bringing on more resistance from the suspects who in many cases normally would not be that way. NOT ALL OFFICERS ARE LIKE THIS NOR WILL THEY BE......BUT A FEW BAD APPLES ARE PUTTING ALL OF THEM IN DANGER.

    In short our officers USED to be trained to interact in a peaceful manner to defuse a situation and prevent them from becoming overly aggressive, they USED to be held accountable for situations that got out of hand. They were expected to bring the suspects in for trial, not kill them on the spot and then be given months to put together a story to cover the events. Were these cops guilty in the recent cases - I don't know. But I do highly believe that the events were handles very poorly and that lead to the eventual out comes, and I do believe that the officers butts were covered and they were not held to a honest and proper accountability for the out comes of the events.

    Our police departments are becoming a dumping ground for military egos who are displaced looking for a place to play hero, men and women who have been trained to serve and protect in a WAR zone under hellish conditions are coming home joining forces and using that mentality on citizen without being properly trained in how to keep peace on our streets through non aggressive measures. We are not in a war zone, and we do not need military attitudes for minor crimes on our streets. This will just continue to get worst.

    -- Posted by jstus on Mon, Dec 15, 2014, at 9:38 AM
  • As long as some americans refuse to believe we have a problem,it will never be solved.Ignoring it will not make it go away.I have policemen in my family,not all are bad.Minorities do not get them same treatment as whites in lots of situations.Take for instance The Bundy Ranch episode.Those ranchers pointed weapons at police and none were shot are arrested.Everyone on here knows had they been minorities,the results would not have been the same.Tamir Rice was shot before the police got out of the car almost,because they thought his gun was real.Even if they thought it was it was real,Ohio has an open carry law and he was not pointing it at them.And why would you pull right up to someone you thought was dangerous.My nephew and his girlfriend was pulled over after working a 12 hour shift because they thought his car looked like a car that was at a drug house.He even let them search his car without a warrant after they claim their dog hit on something.Nothing was found and he was nice to the cops and still got slammed up against the car and yelled at.When they saw she was recording the whole thing everything changed.They were not successful at provoking him to say something.They were finally let go after held and questioned.I know this is hard for some people to believe,but it happens all the time.I believe change is coming.

    -- Posted by lets be real on Mon, Dec 15, 2014, at 1:40 PM
  • Also police need more training.Even mass murders,and we know who 75% of those are in America,are not shot down as quick as a minority stealing a cigar,something is wrong.I am not anti police,every one should be held accountable for breaking the law,even police.The "I felt threatened"statement is getting old.If they feel threatened with guns against an unarmed person for a petty crime then they are not police material.

    -- Posted by lets be real on Tue, Dec 16, 2014, at 12:05 PM
  • The police in question WERE run through the criminal justice system.

    The grand jury, which has the lowest threshold of possible guilt, and who saw all the prosecutor's evidence, said there wasn't enough there to send it up the chain where a higher standard would have to be met.

    If folks believe police aren't being held accountable, their vitriol should be directed at the judiciary instead of the police.

    If the police are out of hand (no question there are bad apples) change will come through the court system either by criminal or civil penalties.

    -- Posted by quietmike on Wed, Dec 17, 2014, at 8:27 PM
  • Hmmm, I thought I had posted another comment. I must not have hit enter twice.

    Anyway, I am sure that some police are less than ideal. I am not sure how we get as many goods ones as we have considering the pay scale they accept for the danger they put themselves in.

    I have been in 'rough' neighborhoods where I have my windows rolled up, leave space between cars to allow for evasive maneuvers, and highly aware of what is going on around me. I change side when something does not feel right on my current side, walk toward police officers if they are engaged in some event.

    I would be constantly on edge to be a policeman in that environment. It takes a certain strength and nerves of steel to be a cop in those places. A permit to carry a concealed weapon was on my to do list for quite some time.

    Many critical of the police should experience a couple police shifts and see how or if that experience results in changed opinions. In NYC, Philly, LA and Chicago I have personally seen officers stand firm to an awful lot of crap and threats without pulling their weapon. They must have ice in their veins.

    -- Posted by stevemills on Wed, Dec 17, 2014, at 9:02 PM
  • The judicial system does need to be changed,I agree.To fix the problem first it has to be acknowledged that there is one.I know it makes some uncomfortable to discuss racial profiling in America.It is necessary to move forward, the past is the present.It has been said that blacks want to dwell on what happened in the past and use it as a crutch now.The history of blacks is just as important to them as the history of others who reenact the Civil War all across America every week carrying rebel flags.These same ones think blacks should keep their history buried.Only when the hearts of some change and view everyone as equal.will it change.

    -- Posted by lets be real on Thu, Dec 18, 2014, at 11:13 AM
  • The original intent of this post was not to argue the race issue, while it will probably continue to be an issue through our children's lifetime.

    But since it has, where does the conversation go now that an apparent black man has murdered two individuals of different race AND police officers as well?

    -- Posted by stevemills on Mon, Dec 22, 2014, at 8:16 AM
  • The problem is excessive lawlessness. It transcends race, sexual orientation, social status, and other divisions. It causes the lack of love for our fellow man. There is hope, but not in our current leadership. Merry Christmas! !

    -- Posted by Liveforlight on Mon, Dec 22, 2014, at 8:27 PM
  • The police shooting was a terrible thing.I pray for the families of policemen,that includes my family that has policemen.Killing innocent people is wrong no matter if it is police or whoever they should be held accountable.It is because of police brutality and treating them as if they are above the law that we are having this conversation.Because someone who is obviously mentally disturbed kills 2 officers is not a reason to continue to ignor what has been going on in this country for years.It will not go away because some refuse to admit it exist even when they see it on video.It is wrong when you cover your face to protect it from being beaten, it is called resisting arrest now. The peaceful protest need to continue,even one of the slain officers wife stated that he approved of the protest.Some still fail to see it is a antibrutality protest not antipolice.Police protested when they turned their back on the Mayor.They are suppose to be professionals who we pay to protect and serve us.Eric Garner and Tamir Rices family should have got the same sympathy shown the officers.They were loved by their family also.This needs to continue until we get badly needed police reform.I think this man would have shot these 2 officers no matter what color they were.Peaceful protest does make a difference.Just ask minorities how the peaceful protest with Dr King in the 60s benefited them.

    -- Posted by lets be real on Tue, Dec 23, 2014, at 11:55 AM
  • This is the first I have heard that the person who shot the police officers was mentally ill.

    Of course ANYONE who kills like that is not someone I would call stable for our society but I thought the press and police were labeling it a response to the recent wave of deaths by police officers.

    This was based on so many of his hate comments on a social media site, that would seem to indicate he targeted two white police officers, although neither were actually Caucasian.

    Police turned their backs on the Mayor. Are they not allowed to peacefully protest as well?

    Those who think that the families of Eric Garner and Tamir Rice did not get any respect. I seem to remember thousands of black & white faces in those shots of the crowds. Were they not showing respect and condolences to the families?

    I don't argue about the right to peacefully demonstrate or that people should celebrate their heritage and I also agree that our society has raised too many who care little for their common man, whatever color or ethnic origin.

    Personally, I think this is a reflection of what we are NOT allowed to teach our children, how we are NOT allowed to discipline those children and our society's general moral decline.

    I know this discussion was taking place when I was a child, and the older I get, the more I think they were right, although I did not agree so much at the time. :-)

    -- Posted by stevemills on Tue, Dec 23, 2014, at 3:14 PM
  • Police are suppose to be impartial and represent everyone While on Duty and in Uniform.They are paid by the people to protect and serve all the people,including the Mayor.They are professionals and held to a different standard.Acording to the New York Region paper the killer had been on medication in the past and tried to hang himself in 2011.It only takes a nudge to push people like this over the edge.We can only pray for hearts to soften on both sides of this situation and let God work it out.

    -- Posted by lets be real on Wed, Dec 24, 2014, at 10:38 AM
  • Also everyone in America needs to read Black Like Me,by John Howard Griffin.This is a nonfiction book about a white man who darkened his skin and passed as a black man for 6 weeks in the south.

    -- Posted by lets be real on Fri, Dec 26, 2014, at 9:41 AM
  • Please tell me....how did he feel leaving his position of the most discriminated sector of American society for six weeks.

    -- Posted by Blessed Assurance on Fri, Dec 26, 2014, at 6:07 PM
  • You have to read the book and see the movie.Let me just say, it wasn't pretty.

    -- Posted by lets be real on Sat, Dec 27, 2014, at 11:13 AM
  • We have to able to move beyond 50 year old books and movies such as "Black Like Me". There was undoubtedly racism and racist laws 50 yrs ago. That has been corrected.

    Racism is a human condition, not limited to the majority but, found throughout all mankind. The laws should not favor, or oppress, any race.

    Ponder these quotes:

    "Publicly inconsolable about the fact that racism continues, these activists seem privately terrified that it has abated."

    --Dinesh D'Souza

    "Everybody has asked the question. . ."What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!"

    --Frederick Douglass

    -- Posted by Liveforlight on Sun, Jan 4, 2015, at 3:39 PM
  • I don't know if it's Correct or not and I'm not going to spend hours on lexisnexis to find out.

    It seems there are too many ways to split that hair. Hard to answer with out a reference point. I think, and this is just opinion, if you and I conspire to rob Betty's nail salon at gun point and Betty has a heart attack and dies we share culpability. If we then get in a shoot out with police and you are shot and killed I'm culpable in two homicides. But If I surrender and you don't and are killed by police then I'm only culpable in Betty's death.

    -- Posted by Kratos on Sat, Jan 10, 2015, at 10:34 PM
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